From this post where Laertes decided to prove to me that AM is not actually balls.
This is a thread to discuss plans and desired campaign stuff and things, I think.
Important Links per request:
Camille (momothefiddler)
Petrus (Korgan0)
Orsen (Leetkeis)
Vergil (Mask_De_H)
Nidrattr (Prak_Anima)
Mathei (JeanPat)
Camille's Grogs
Terram Ruling
Covenant Spreadsheet
Current (I think) Covenant Oath
If you want anything else added here, let me know.
[Ars Magica 5] OOC: It's PeIm for darkness, not PeCo
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momothefiddler
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[Ars Magica 5] OOC: It's PeIm for darkness, not PeCo
Last edited by momothefiddler on Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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momothefiddler
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"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your goddamn mouth shut."
- Ernest Hemingway
Gentlemen. Thank you for coming. I'll be your GM for today. Emergency exits are here, here and here. If the game should experience a sudden loss of pressure, oxygen masks will drop from the ceiling in front of you.
Ars Magica can be summed up with the following description:
"A community solves its problems with the creative application of magic."
Let'a go through that a word at a time.
We, collectively, are playing through the trials and tribulations of a community. Your main character in this community will be your wizard, but there are many others and you should feel free to play any of them at any point.
Let me repeat that: you may, if you wish, grab any grog in the community and use them. It may be a one-liner or it may be for an entire adventure, but they are your characters, not mine. If you would like to stat them, great; if not, we'll ballpark them if it becomes necessary.
There will be problems. Oh yes. Shit is going to happen to your little community. This is a good thing, because it means you get to deploy interesting fixes. Not all problems are simple blow-shit-up matters, and the most memorable scenes result from trying to apply power in an unexpected way.
The community will, however, solve its problems. This is not a matter of "rocks fall, everyone dies." I am not going to try to kill you. This is not to say that you won't die if you go up against a dragon without some preparation work; but I take no enjoyment from watching characters be eaten by dragons for no reason except my own sadism.
This isn't a game of "can you solve the problem?" It's a game of "what does the method you chose to solve the problem reveal about your character?" The problems will be multifaceted and have many, many possible solutions.
Magic is going to be used. It's going to be used creatively. You're going to get a lot of weird off-the-wall issues for your characters to solve. Some of them will be a matter of "can I do +50 damage with 100 penetration?" Most won't.
Let's take an example to help people think through the system. I apologise to those who are veterans and are familiar with it.
You are being chased through a forest by a group of the king's men due to a tragic misunderstanding. You wish to escape but do not wish to shed their blood as that'll make things worse in the long run.
Can you think of solutions for this problem using as many different form and technique combinations as possible?
- Ernest Hemingway
Gentlemen. Thank you for coming. I'll be your GM for today. Emergency exits are here, here and here. If the game should experience a sudden loss of pressure, oxygen masks will drop from the ceiling in front of you.
Ars Magica can be summed up with the following description:
"A community solves its problems with the creative application of magic."
Let'a go through that a word at a time.
We, collectively, are playing through the trials and tribulations of a community. Your main character in this community will be your wizard, but there are many others and you should feel free to play any of them at any point.
Let me repeat that: you may, if you wish, grab any grog in the community and use them. It may be a one-liner or it may be for an entire adventure, but they are your characters, not mine. If you would like to stat them, great; if not, we'll ballpark them if it becomes necessary.
There will be problems. Oh yes. Shit is going to happen to your little community. This is a good thing, because it means you get to deploy interesting fixes. Not all problems are simple blow-shit-up matters, and the most memorable scenes result from trying to apply power in an unexpected way.
The community will, however, solve its problems. This is not a matter of "rocks fall, everyone dies." I am not going to try to kill you. This is not to say that you won't die if you go up against a dragon without some preparation work; but I take no enjoyment from watching characters be eaten by dragons for no reason except my own sadism.
This isn't a game of "can you solve the problem?" It's a game of "what does the method you chose to solve the problem reveal about your character?" The problems will be multifaceted and have many, many possible solutions.
Magic is going to be used. It's going to be used creatively. You're going to get a lot of weird off-the-wall issues for your characters to solve. Some of them will be a matter of "can I do +50 damage with 100 penetration?" Most won't.
Let's take an example to help people think through the system. I apologise to those who are veterans and are familiar with it.
You are being chased through a forest by a group of the king's men due to a tragic misunderstanding. You wish to escape but do not wish to shed their blood as that'll make things worse in the long run.
Can you think of solutions for this problem using as many different form and technique combinations as possible?
Adapting Ars Magica to an online forum presents its challenges but also its opportunities. The main challenge is to do with dice.
Every time polyhedrals hit the table, play stops until the result is known. Tragically, this means that it takes ages to play through dice-heavy scenes online. My solution is threefold and is as follows:
A) I trust you to make the rolls wherever necessary. "Laertes, I experimented on my lab activity and blew up the Western Tower" is fine. So is "Laertes, I experimented on my lab activity and got twenty extra XP." I trust you. Nobody is really low enough to cheat at a cooperative storytelling game, and if they are? They're welcome to. I won't care. I probably won't even notice.
B) A lot of rolls will be MTPed away wherever the result is not seriously in doubt. For example, if Sir Stabbington the Sword Sage is fighting Bob the Lame Kobold, I don't want to take up days and pages of forum when everybody knows what's going to happen is that Bob is going to get stabbed.
C) Some specific subsystems will get collapsed into single gestalt rolls whenever they are not narratively vital. These specific subsystems are combat, Twilight and certamen.
So that's the challenges out of the way. Now let's talk about the big advantage of online play: nonlinearity.
Let's suppose the covenant has two big problems right now: the goblin raiders from the hills, and the famine. Rather than play these out sequentially, we can do them simultaneously, running in parallel despite the scenes actually taking place weeks or months apart. It means that a player can log on once a day, comment on each thread, and leave without feeling that he's holding the game up.
Naturally, this can't be done with scenes which present an existential threat to the covenant or its members, and thus possibly preclude the existence of further scenes. However, a lot of interesting stuff occurs below this level, and it would lose much of the richness of the game if we ignored it.
The best way to do nonlinearity is with several parallel forum threads, but I don't know what the Den's attitude is on thread proliferation.
Every time polyhedrals hit the table, play stops until the result is known. Tragically, this means that it takes ages to play through dice-heavy scenes online. My solution is threefold and is as follows:
A) I trust you to make the rolls wherever necessary. "Laertes, I experimented on my lab activity and blew up the Western Tower" is fine. So is "Laertes, I experimented on my lab activity and got twenty extra XP." I trust you. Nobody is really low enough to cheat at a cooperative storytelling game, and if they are? They're welcome to. I won't care. I probably won't even notice.
B) A lot of rolls will be MTPed away wherever the result is not seriously in doubt. For example, if Sir Stabbington the Sword Sage is fighting Bob the Lame Kobold, I don't want to take up days and pages of forum when everybody knows what's going to happen is that Bob is going to get stabbed.
C) Some specific subsystems will get collapsed into single gestalt rolls whenever they are not narratively vital. These specific subsystems are combat, Twilight and certamen.
So that's the challenges out of the way. Now let's talk about the big advantage of online play: nonlinearity.
Let's suppose the covenant has two big problems right now: the goblin raiders from the hills, and the famine. Rather than play these out sequentially, we can do them simultaneously, running in parallel despite the scenes actually taking place weeks or months apart. It means that a player can log on once a day, comment on each thread, and leave without feeling that he's holding the game up.
Naturally, this can't be done with scenes which present an existential threat to the covenant or its members, and thus possibly preclude the existence of further scenes. However, a lot of interesting stuff occurs below this level, and it would lose much of the richness of the game if we ignored it.
The best way to do nonlinearity is with several parallel forum threads, but I don't know what the Den's attitude is on thread proliferation.
momothefiddler suggested starting as a Spring covenant. This is one of two classic starts, the other being restarting an old covenant. It's a good initial position and while it's been done a thousand times, that's because it works.
We will be using the covenant Hooks and Boons from the main book; we will not be using the Covenant Build Points scheme because it's totally dysfunctional, and we will be laying the Covenants book and all its stuff carefully to one side so it doesn't accidentally contaminate the rest of the game with its terribad.
(The Lab Customisation rules from Covenants are actually superb, but that book generally introduces way, way, way too much bookkeeping and granularity for a beginning game, especially at chargen. I have no objection to introducing the Lab Customisation system later on if people would like.)
For fairness, we will be beginning with a small number of books, some vis, some specialists and some grogs. I'll list this explicitly later but it's going to be player choices, not GM inflicted.
The covenant Hooks and Boons system mechanises the distinctions between different starting locations and the tradeoffs therein. Gentlemen, could I ask for some discussion on crunching this please?
We will be using the covenant Hooks and Boons from the main book; we will not be using the Covenant Build Points scheme because it's totally dysfunctional, and we will be laying the Covenants book and all its stuff carefully to one side so it doesn't accidentally contaminate the rest of the game with its terribad.
(The Lab Customisation rules from Covenants are actually superb, but that book generally introduces way, way, way too much bookkeeping and granularity for a beginning game, especially at chargen. I have no objection to introducing the Lab Customisation system later on if people would like.)
For fairness, we will be beginning with a small number of books, some vis, some specialists and some grogs. I'll list this explicitly later but it's going to be player choices, not GM inflicted.
The covenant Hooks and Boons system mechanises the distinctions between different starting locations and the tradeoffs therein. Gentlemen, could I ask for some discussion on crunching this please?
Chargen notes:
Your magus was born in 1200, had five years of childhood and then fifteen years of apprenticeship. Let's standardise this right out of the gate.
Content from the main book is all allowed, as usual.
Content from the Houses of Hermes books is not only allowed but encouraged, with the exception of Mythic Companions which are not really appropriate for a forum game. Inner Mysteries will not be available at chargen but as soon as the dice hit the table we can build towards them. They're cool and I don't want to stop you from having them if you want them.
Likewise, you may not begin with a familiar, an apprentice or a talisman (although Verditius may begin with a Masterpiece if they take that virtue.) These are all fine the moment play starts though.
Since this is a newbie friendly game, nothing from The Mysteries at chargen, please.
Content from Art & Academe, The Church, Lords of Men and Craft & Guild is allowed but be warned that a lot of it is underpowered. If you want it thematically then great, don't let power level stop you.
The Realms of Power books are generally not appropriate for PC magi unless you're playing a weird, themed game. Please do not test my patience by asking me for anything from Realms of Power: Magic on a magician.
If you would like me to take my GM hat off, put my experienced player hat on, and give you chargen advice, I am happy to do so.
Your magus was born in 1200, had five years of childhood and then fifteen years of apprenticeship. Let's standardise this right out of the gate.
Content from the main book is all allowed, as usual.
Content from the Houses of Hermes books is not only allowed but encouraged, with the exception of Mythic Companions which are not really appropriate for a forum game. Inner Mysteries will not be available at chargen but as soon as the dice hit the table we can build towards them. They're cool and I don't want to stop you from having them if you want them.
Likewise, you may not begin with a familiar, an apprentice or a talisman (although Verditius may begin with a Masterpiece if they take that virtue.) These are all fine the moment play starts though.
Since this is a newbie friendly game, nothing from The Mysteries at chargen, please.
Content from Art & Academe, The Church, Lords of Men and Craft & Guild is allowed but be warned that a lot of it is underpowered. If you want it thematically then great, don't let power level stop you.
The Realms of Power books are generally not appropriate for PC magi unless you're playing a weird, themed game. Please do not test my patience by asking me for anything from Realms of Power: Magic on a magician.
If you would like me to take my GM hat off, put my experienced player hat on, and give you chargen advice, I am happy to do so.
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momothefiddler
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Laertes wrote:You are being chased through a forest by a group of the king's men due to a tragic misunderstanding. You wish to escape but do not wish to shed their blood as that'll make things worse in the long run.
Can you think of solutions for this problem using as many different form and technique combinations as possible?
Creo Animal: Conjure a horde of rats that will get in their way but probably do little real damage. Conjure a horde of deer that they will be unable to damage because they're the king's (may not work in all locations). Make your own horse as fast as horses can be (assuming you can ride a horse).
Creo Aquam: Make a river spring up between you, or, more affordably, turn the ground under you into a marshy goop once you've passed over it (might take Terram; I don't get requisites yet).
Creo Auram: Could probably handle direct knockback attacks that don't do any damage. Once out of direct sight, could help keep your scent from dogs. With Aquam, can make a rainstorm that impedes visibility?
Creo Corpus: Make yourself faster, stronger, more agile. Dodge undergrowth and roots while sprinting like a champ.
Creo Herbam: Hedges. So many hedges.
Creo Ignem: Probably don't want to Creo any fire directly, but some bright flashes of light from various directions could easily leave your pursuers dazzled and confused.
Creo Imaginem: There are fifty of you running different directions through the woods.
Creo Mentem: Create the thought in their heads that they would really rather go home? Or that they should be scared of you? Or... something along those lines, I think.
Creo Terram: Like hedges, but walls. Briefly make the ground in front of you more solid and tractiony, but let it go back to what it was before they want to cross it.
Creo Vim: ?? ??? ????
Intellego Animal: Know where a bear is so you can run past it and they have to go around? Eh.
Itellego Aquam: Best place to cross a River? These are not great.
Intellego Herbam: The best way to get through underbrush?
Intellego Imaginem: Know when they can't see you? Maybe?
Intellego Mentem: Read the guard captain's mind to know what to shout to get him to call off the hunt.
Muto Animal: Do they have horses? Do they have horses without legs? Now they do.
Muto Corpus: Extra legs makes you better at running. Thick skin makes you better at not dying from arrows in the back. With Animal, being a bird makes you fly away free.
Muto Herbam: Why did the grass turn into tanglyvines.
Muto Imaginem: Oh hey it looks like I'm running that way instead of this way.
Muto Mentem: Give them a squirrel's instincts to stop and run up trees and gather nuts.
Perdo Animal: As Muto Animal, but just like... make it slow and weak.
Perdo Corpus: Make them slow and weak.
Perdo Herbam: Briefly weaken/destroy plants ahead of you? Destroy their wooden weapons.
Perdo Ignem: Sure is dark over there where they are.
Perdo Imaginem: Remove your own image (i.e. be invisible).
Perdo Mentem: Make them forget why they're chasing you.
Perdo Terram: No metal weapons.
Rego Animal: Horses, whatever.
Rego Corpus: Paralyze them shortly.
Rego Herbam: Hedges again, but just thickly grown whatever was there.
Rego Imaginem: Hm. Maybe this is the thing I said for MuIm and MuIm is making it look like I did the MuCo bird thing.
Rego Mentem: They're loyal to you, not the King.
Rego Terram: Their armor locks up? Their weapons bend? That's probably Perdo instead. I dunno. Rego is weird.
Creo Aquam: Make a river spring up between you, or, more affordably, turn the ground under you into a marshy goop once you've passed over it (might take Terram; I don't get requisites yet).
Creo Auram: Could probably handle direct knockback attacks that don't do any damage. Once out of direct sight, could help keep your scent from dogs. With Aquam, can make a rainstorm that impedes visibility?
Creo Corpus: Make yourself faster, stronger, more agile. Dodge undergrowth and roots while sprinting like a champ.
Creo Herbam: Hedges. So many hedges.
Creo Ignem: Probably don't want to Creo any fire directly, but some bright flashes of light from various directions could easily leave your pursuers dazzled and confused.
Creo Imaginem: There are fifty of you running different directions through the woods.
Creo Mentem: Create the thought in their heads that they would really rather go home? Or that they should be scared of you? Or... something along those lines, I think.
Creo Terram: Like hedges, but walls. Briefly make the ground in front of you more solid and tractiony, but let it go back to what it was before they want to cross it.
Creo Vim: ?? ??? ????
Intellego Animal: Know where a bear is so you can run past it and they have to go around? Eh.
Itellego Aquam: Best place to cross a River? These are not great.
Intellego Herbam: The best way to get through underbrush?
Intellego Imaginem: Know when they can't see you? Maybe?
Intellego Mentem: Read the guard captain's mind to know what to shout to get him to call off the hunt.
Muto Animal: Do they have horses? Do they have horses without legs? Now they do.
Muto Corpus: Extra legs makes you better at running. Thick skin makes you better at not dying from arrows in the back. With Animal, being a bird makes you fly away free.
Muto Herbam: Why did the grass turn into tanglyvines.
Muto Imaginem: Oh hey it looks like I'm running that way instead of this way.
Muto Mentem: Give them a squirrel's instincts to stop and run up trees and gather nuts.
Perdo Animal: As Muto Animal, but just like... make it slow and weak.
Perdo Corpus: Make them slow and weak.
Perdo Herbam: Briefly weaken/destroy plants ahead of you? Destroy their wooden weapons.
Perdo Ignem: Sure is dark over there where they are.
Perdo Imaginem: Remove your own image (i.e. be invisible).
Perdo Mentem: Make them forget why they're chasing you.
Perdo Terram: No metal weapons.
Rego Animal: Horses, whatever.
Rego Corpus: Paralyze them shortly.
Rego Herbam: Hedges again, but just thickly grown whatever was there.
Rego Imaginem: Hm. Maybe this is the thing I said for MuIm and MuIm is making it look like I did the MuCo bird thing.
Rego Mentem: They're loyal to you, not the King.
Rego Terram: Their armor locks up? Their weapons bend? That's probably Perdo instead. I dunno. Rego is weird.
I will probably still link my rolls in Invisible Castle because I want to, if that's okay. I like doing that.Laertes wrote:A) I trust you to make the rolls wherever necessary. "Laertes, I experimented on my lab activity and blew up the Western Tower" is fine. So is "Laertes, I experimented on my lab activity and got twenty extra XP." I trust you. Nobody is really low enough to cheat at a cooperative storytelling game, and if they are? They're welcome to. I won't care. I probably won't even notice.
Sounds good. Thread proliferation seems a bit unwieldy, but so does cramming it all into one. I don't have any suggestions here.Laertes wrote:nonlinearity
Which Virtue? I'm not seeing it.Laertes wrote:(although Verditius may begin with a Masterpiece if they take that virtue.)
Awesome. Nicely creative.momothefiddler wrote:some pretty cool ways of fleeing from the king's men
That's absolutely fine.momothefidddler wrote:I will probably still link my rolls in Invisible Castle because I want to, if that's okay. I like doing that.
Masterpiece. Houses of Hermes: Mystery Cults, page 135.momothefiddler wrote:Which Virtue? I'm not seeing it.
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momothefiddler
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Also, since I have some time while my SQL runs, let me clarify the distinction between Muto and Rego a little as you might appreciate that.
Muto makes things turn into other things. So you could use Muto Mentem to change someone's fear into greed, or love into hate; or you could use Muto Terram to turn someone's armour into soil or powder, or into a suit of armour which doesn't have holes to see through and joints to move with. In combination with other Forms, Muto can turn things into literally anything. For example, you can use Muto Animal Auram to turn someone's horse into a cloud.
When Muto wears off, the thing returns to its original state. You can do all sorts of creative things with this; for example, you can make stone briefly flow like a liquid, then pour it into a mould, and when the spell expires the stone will go back to being hard but will now be in the form of the mould. To take the earlier example, when your Muto Animal Auram wears off, that cloud will turn back into the person's horse, alive and unharmed (but presumably not including the rider or the saddle, unless you included them in the spell.)
Muto changes don't directly inflict damage. Muto Terraming someone's armour smaller would just make it fall off, not make it crush them. On the other hand, Muto can change things into stuff which is extremely bad for everything around them. For example, you could use Muto Auram to turn a rainstorm into a rainstorm of lamp oil. Better hope the people under it weren't carrying lanterns.
Things affected by Muto bounce off magic resistance unless they were cast with high Penetration. Therefore, if a dude is coming at you with a sword, using Muto to make his sword sharper will make it magical and thus resisted with magic resistance. This is known as the Pink Dot Defence, and sounds like an exploit until you realise that in Ars Magica, having magic resistance and being able to cast spells makes you a badass and thus you would not be short of other ways to make impudent swordsmen regret giving you a chance to cast a spell on them while they're charging.
Muto makes things turn into other things. So you could use Muto Mentem to change someone's fear into greed, or love into hate; or you could use Muto Terram to turn someone's armour into soil or powder, or into a suit of armour which doesn't have holes to see through and joints to move with. In combination with other Forms, Muto can turn things into literally anything. For example, you can use Muto Animal Auram to turn someone's horse into a cloud.
When Muto wears off, the thing returns to its original state. You can do all sorts of creative things with this; for example, you can make stone briefly flow like a liquid, then pour it into a mould, and when the spell expires the stone will go back to being hard but will now be in the form of the mould. To take the earlier example, when your Muto Animal Auram wears off, that cloud will turn back into the person's horse, alive and unharmed (but presumably not including the rider or the saddle, unless you included them in the spell.)
Muto changes don't directly inflict damage. Muto Terraming someone's armour smaller would just make it fall off, not make it crush them. On the other hand, Muto can change things into stuff which is extremely bad for everything around them. For example, you could use Muto Auram to turn a rainstorm into a rainstorm of lamp oil. Better hope the people under it weren't carrying lanterns.
Things affected by Muto bounce off magic resistance unless they were cast with high Penetration. Therefore, if a dude is coming at you with a sword, using Muto to make his sword sharper will make it magical and thus resisted with magic resistance. This is known as the Pink Dot Defence, and sounds like an exploit until you realise that in Ars Magica, having magic resistance and being able to cast spells makes you a badass and thus you would not be short of other ways to make impudent swordsmen regret giving you a chance to cast a spell on them while they're charging.
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momothefiddler
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Rego, by contrast, makes things obey you. Anything that a thing can do as part of its natural motions is under Rego.
Note that those "natural motions" include stuff that can be done to it. For example, a rock can be lifted into the air, so you can use Rego Terram to make things fly. A rock can be carried into that house over there, so you can use Rego Terram to teleport the stone into it. A rock can be carved into a dragon statue, so you can use Rego Terram to carve it like that. However, a stone can't turn into an actual dragon. That isn't a thing that stones can do. Therefore, you'd need Muto for that. Similarly, a stone cannot double in size, no matter how much it's lifted or has a craftsman work on it.
Unlike Muto, you can do direct damage with Rego, since throwing things really really hard is within the range of natural motions of that thing. Picking up things and dropping them on dudes is hilarious, but so is picking up dudes and dropping them on things. If you have Rego, you are the telekinetic master.
When the magic wears off, your control of the stone will end but it will remain in its current state. Therefore, you can use Rego to construct permanent things. If you need fine control you need to use the Finesse ability, that's what it's for.
Items under Rego control are not counted as magical; however, any force they're moving with is. For example, if you use Rego Aquam to pick up a tonne of water and hurl it at someone, they would have all their bones broken by the force. If they had magic resistance, then the force would be negated but since the water is not magical, they'd still get wet.
You can use Rego to bypass magic resistance entirely simply by using it to set things in motion, and then let nature take its course. For example, lift a rock above someone's head, then end the spell and watch them be sad in a completely mundane way which magic resistance is powerless against. However, this requires an aiming roll since the projectile isn't magically guided to its target and thus if you're not good at estimating trajectories, you may well simply miss.
Note that those "natural motions" include stuff that can be done to it. For example, a rock can be lifted into the air, so you can use Rego Terram to make things fly. A rock can be carried into that house over there, so you can use Rego Terram to teleport the stone into it. A rock can be carved into a dragon statue, so you can use Rego Terram to carve it like that. However, a stone can't turn into an actual dragon. That isn't a thing that stones can do. Therefore, you'd need Muto for that. Similarly, a stone cannot double in size, no matter how much it's lifted or has a craftsman work on it.
Unlike Muto, you can do direct damage with Rego, since throwing things really really hard is within the range of natural motions of that thing. Picking up things and dropping them on dudes is hilarious, but so is picking up dudes and dropping them on things. If you have Rego, you are the telekinetic master.
When the magic wears off, your control of the stone will end but it will remain in its current state. Therefore, you can use Rego to construct permanent things. If you need fine control you need to use the Finesse ability, that's what it's for.
Items under Rego control are not counted as magical; however, any force they're moving with is. For example, if you use Rego Aquam to pick up a tonne of water and hurl it at someone, they would have all their bones broken by the force. If they had magic resistance, then the force would be negated but since the water is not magical, they'd still get wet.
You can use Rego to bypass magic resistance entirely simply by using it to set things in motion, and then let nature take its course. For example, lift a rock above someone's head, then end the spell and watch them be sad in a completely mundane way which magic resistance is powerless against. However, this requires an aiming roll since the projectile isn't magically guided to its target and thus if you're not good at estimating trajectories, you may well simply miss.
Last edited by Laertes on Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
It refers to the case where you use Creo Imaginem to put a pink dot on their sword. It's now a magical weapon and thus is stopped by magic resistance. People on the internet play it up as an exploit, but it really isn't that big a deal since the range of cases where a dude with a sword is a menace to a magician who has time to get a spell off is low.1) What's the origin of "Pink Dot Defense"
This is especially true when you look at the combat rules. A stout lad with a big shield can protect you against hostile swordsmen without you needing to cast a pink dot at all. Since a magus is assumed to leave the covenant under the protection of his trusty Shield Grog (pronounced "DMF") you're in the awkward position where your clever exploit is made obsolete by unskilled peasant labour.
You can do it with either. Creo can make it every bit as sharp as any mundane sword made by a medieval smith has a right to be. Muto can make it unnaturally sharp, up to razorblade or even monosword levels of sharpness. Creo, on the other hand, can repair it if it breaks.2) Doesn't making a sword sharper explicitly fall under Creo, not Muto?
You will find generally that in Ars Magica, there's typically many ways to do any given thing. This is nice, since it shifts the question from "can I do this thing?" to "which way of doing this thing suits my purposes best?"
Last edited by Laertes on Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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momothefiddler
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This is not at all the impression I got from the book and I am glad that it is the case.Laertes wrote:You will find generally that in Ars Magica, there's typically many ways to do any given thing. This is nice, since it shifts the question from "can I do this thing?" to "which way of doing this thing suits my purposes best?"
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momothefiddler
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Right, with respect to large goals, but any particular effect was, I'd imagined, entirely within the realm of a single Form/Technique combo.
"You cannot sharpen a sword with Perdo, even though sharpening involves removing material. Similarly, you cannot remove someone's property of being wounded, because that makes them a better example of what they are."
I figured this would preclude Muto for sword sharpening too. Or Rego, which would be limited to mundane sharpness like Creo.
"You cannot sharpen a sword with Perdo, even though sharpening involves removing material. Similarly, you cannot remove someone's property of being wounded, because that makes them a better example of what they are."
I figured this would preclude Muto for sword sharpening too. Or Rego, which would be limited to mundane sharpness like Creo.
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momothefiddler
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Can't find the rule on this, so:
Do Range, Target, and/or Duration changes make for different spells? That is, if I "know" a formulaic MuAq 3 to turn a flask of water into wine (Base 2, +1 Touch, +0 Momentary, +0 Individual), and then I wish to apply it to a flask across the room, making it MuAq 4 (Base 2, +2 Voice, +0 Momentary, +0 Individual), does that need to be a separate formulaic spell (i.e. would it have to be cast as spontaneous unless it was invented separately)? What about all the flasks in the room - MuAq 5 (Base 2, +1 Touch, +0 Momentary, +2 Room)?
Do Range, Target, and/or Duration changes make for different spells? That is, if I "know" a formulaic MuAq 3 to turn a flask of water into wine (Base 2, +1 Touch, +0 Momentary, +0 Individual), and then I wish to apply it to a flask across the room, making it MuAq 4 (Base 2, +2 Voice, +0 Momentary, +0 Individual), does that need to be a separate formulaic spell (i.e. would it have to be cast as spontaneous unless it was invented separately)? What about all the flasks in the room - MuAq 5 (Base 2, +1 Touch, +0 Momentary, +2 Room)?
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angelfromanotherpin
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momothefiddler
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These are all separate but similar spells. ("Similar" means that in some circumstances, like loading multiples of them into the same magic item, you get synergy bonuses.)Do Range, Target, and/or Duration changes make for different spells? That is, if I "know" a formulaic MuAq 3 to turn a flask of water into wine (Base 2, +1 Touch, +0 Momentary, +0 Individual), and then I wish to apply it to a flask across the room, making it MuAq 4 (Base 2, +2 Voice, +0 Momentary, +0 Individual), does that need to be a separate formulaic spell (i.e. would it have to be cast as spontaneous unless it was invented separately)? What about all the flasks in the room - MuAq 5 (Base 2, +1 Touch, +0 Momentary, +2 Room)?
Remember that when the duration expires (which is instantaneous for momentary) the water will turn back into wine. If you want to make it last long enough to drink, kick it up a magnitude to Duration: Diameter.
That said, momentary changes are often enough, especially with Muto. A momentary MuTe(Aq) to turn stone into water is enough to take down a wall, for example.
It means one magnitude, yes.I presume where the virtue says you may raise or lower the casting level of the spell by five, it actually means by one magnitude? I'm still a bit puzzled by how those mean the same thing for anything >= 5 (which is almost everything ever) but not for <5.
In general, it's rare for people to know any formulaic spells below level 5 because it's almost impossible to fail to spontaneously cast them if you have decent scores in the Arts in question. This changes if you take Difficult Spontaneous Magic, of course.
(The reason that magnitudes work differently for <5 and >=5 is because it's a patch over a place where the rules went a bit fuzzy in previous editions. It's a little tricky until you get used to it.)
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momothefiddler
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Creo and Muto spells disappear at the end of duration, but their effects remain. For example, a magical fire created to light a torch disappears, but the torch itself remains on fire because it's now burning naturally; and a wall turned into water with MuTe(Aq) will turn back into stone but it'll be a puddle-shaped stone.Oh. I figured that was a lasting thing, unlike Creo. So is Rego the only Technique that lasts?
Perdo effects return to normal at the natural speed of that thing returning. For example, a hole carved into the sea with PeAq will fill up instantly; someone with their eyesight PeCo'd away will heal at the natural rate of human eyesight healing; and a rock turned into dust with PeTe will never return to normal because rocks don't heal.
(There's a Merinita flaw which makes Perdo end like Muto or Creo. It's often considered a virtue due to the cool tactical stuff you can do with it.)
Rego effects are permanent. However, getting useful results out of Rego often requires good Finesse.
Intellego senses disappear at the end of the spell's casting but you retain the memory of the information you received.
One point of fatigue only costs 2 minutes of sitting down to recover. Outside of battle or other stressful situations there is generally no cost to doing everything in a fatiguing manner.Ah. So 25 is an expected casting total? Or am I overrating the impact of spending fatigue?
A normal casting total in their area of competence for a non-optimised starting character might be:
Stamina 1 + no friendly aura + Form 10 + Technique 10
= 21+D10
= easily casting 25s.
A specialised casting total for a specialist starting character might be:
Stamina 3 + no friendly aura + Form 12 + Technique 12 + Minor Focus 12
= 39+D10
= easily casting 40s.
However, the lowest non-deficiency casting total for a character who's been around for a while might be:
Stamina 2 + no friendly aura + Form 5 + Technique 5
= 12+D10
= easily casting 15s
...meaning that for a character who's got all fifteen Arts to five (which only takes a season per Art if you know what you're doing) can cast any minor spell with a fatigue spend.
Last edited by Laertes on Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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momothefiddler
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??? What's the natural rate of human eyesight healing, and how is "returns to normal at the natural rate of that thing" different from Instantaneous duration spells?
Looks like the things I'm imagining doing (using magic to supplement crafts, for instance) mean I'll need a lot of Rego and a lot of Finesse.
EDIT: Also the fact that Arts are so much cheaper than Abilities puzzles me, given that they're theoretically far more useful (a 5 in speaking Greek is worth 5s in every single Technique? Craft(Woodworking) 5, Craft (Metalworking) 5, and Craft(Stonecarving) 5 is a bit more than Rego 8, Herbam 8, Terram 8, and Finesse 6. No tools required, you have far more options, and each one of those works with other Arts to do other things...?)
Looks like the things I'm imagining doing (using magic to supplement crafts, for instance) mean I'll need a lot of Rego and a lot of Finesse.
EDIT: Also the fact that Arts are so much cheaper than Abilities puzzles me, given that they're theoretically far more useful (a 5 in speaking Greek is worth 5s in every single Technique? Craft(Woodworking) 5, Craft (Metalworking) 5, and Craft(Stonecarving) 5 is a bit more than Rego 8, Herbam 8, Terram 8, and Finesse 6. No tools required, you have far more options, and each one of those works with other Arts to do other things...?)
Last edited by momothefiddler on Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Human eyesight recovery? Let me answer that tonight when I have my books available.??? What's the natural rate of human eyesight healing, and how is "returns to normal at the natural rate of that thing" different from Instantaneous duration spells?
In general, recovery from Perdo can only begin once the duration of the Perdo spell has elapsed. This means that you cause a wound with PeCo and someone comes in to heal it, the wound will reopen again constantly during that duration. Equally, if you dig a hole with Perdo Terram with a Moon duration, then any soil thrown into that hole during that month will cease to be.
Craft magic is solidly Rego and is an excellent thing to do if you're good at it. The rule of thumb is that a Rego spell can approximate the quality of a craftsman whose craft Ability is equal to your Finesse + 3. That is, you need more Finesse than they need crafting Ability. However, you can make things a lot faster with magic, and you can make a lot more of them; and you only need to learn Finesse once while they need a separate craft Ability for each different craft.Looks like the things I'm imagining doing (using magic to supplement crafts, for instance) mean I'll need a lot of Rego and a lot of Finesse.
This also applies when wielding an item of that spell. Since Finesse is an Ability that grogs can learn, this means you can have a corps of skilled wand users protecting your covenant, carrying out your orders and piloting your flying boats. This is especially characteristic of covenants with Verditius members, since Verditius are good at making enchanted items and also tend to accumulate large numbers of followers.
For example, the famous covenant of Coeris is defended with ballistae and siege engines with Rego spells to load and cock them at instant speed (but with mundane springs and bolts so that magic resistance doesn't stop them) and by legions of giant wooden statues of soldiers, which are controlled using Rego Herbam wands by the covenant staff. The front gate is locked by means of a Room-target Creo Herbam spell, which fills the front antechamber with a single giant block of oak exactly large enough to fill it without any seams or air gaps. Good luck tunnelling through that.
(The reason it's all Herbam stuff is that the magus who set up the defences was really good at Herbam. If someone else had done it, it might have been Terram or Aquam or whatever.)
Ars Magica doesn't even pretend to balance magic with non-magic. Magic is simply better than the other options. Non-magic is what you do when you don't have a specialised magician available for whatever reason.EDIT: Also the fact that Arts are so much cheaper than Abilities puzzles me, given that they're theoretically far more useful (a 5 in speaking Greek is worth 5s in every single Technique? Craft(Woodworking) 5, Craft (Metalworking) 5, and Craft(Stonecarving) 5 is a bit more than Rego 8, Herbam 8, Terram 8, and Finesse 6. No tools required, you have far more options, and each one of those works with other Arts to do other things...?)
For example, your covenant may well always have a mundane swordsmith rather than getting you to cast it, because hiring a professional to sit in a forge and repair swords all day is more convenient to the Terram magician than coming down every so often to cast a spell to do it, and is cheaper than making an item to do it.
The other thing to remember is that Arts tend to go up a whole lot *higher* than Abilities. You'll never get your Craft (Metalworking) up above 10 unless you're an absolute monomaniac, but high-level magi can have Arts of 40+.