[Ars Magica 5] OOC: It's PeIm for darkness, not PeCo

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:43 pm

Ah. Yes, that makes sense.

I meant separate from the Rusticani thing. The rules on Societas 58-59 for Ceremonial casting, that the Jerbiton use. It's not important, though, considering it's +0.2 at best.

Laertes · Post by **Laertes** » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:45 pm

The Ceremonial Casting rules are separate, but they stack if you have access to both.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:18 am

How do Diedne Magic and Weak Spontaneous Magic interact? A strict reading would seem to say that the flaw negates all aspects of the virtue ("so you always divide your casting total by five"), but it seems a reasonable interpretation that the flaw would negate the ability to expend fatigue and double the art, but leave the ability to divide by 2 and roll a stress die.

...though it occurs to me that if I'm considering going that far, I should perhaps just skip the Rusticani. The fluff is great, and the Craft Magic is kinda nice, but it'd only really be worth it if Weak Spontaneous Magic didn't also cut out my ability to use spontaneous spells in Craft Magic, at which point it's all kinda dull.

Thoughts?

Laertes · Post by **Laertes** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:30 am

My reading of Weak Spontaneous Magic is the the rule says "you may not expend fatigue", and the explanation of its consequences under normal conditions says "thus you always divide by five." Therefore, a Diedne with Weak Spontaneous Magic would be able to use either of their first two options (divide by five with no chance of botch, or divide by two with a chance of botch.) They would not, however, be able to use the amazingly powerful third option (double the lowest art) because that requires an expenditure of fatigue.

But yes, a Diedne Rusticani is a deeply, deeply suboptimal build. They're both potential powerhouses (having looked over the Rusticani I am impressed as to how good they are) but these are two great tastes that do not taste great together. The strength of the Rusticani is that they can craft spells and make charged items easily; this allows them to look after a community, to stockpile spells, and to give their mundane servants a magical edge. The strength of the Diedne is that they can improvise spells almost as powerful as they could cast with formulaic magic; this allows them to respond personally to unforeseen challenges. Take the one you want, and drop the other.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:46 am

I want to craft various minor magical items for my people and take advantage of Craft Magic to do it in less than three months, but given the fact that a spontaneous spell of level 10 would require a pile of bonuses to get to 50 (remembering that arts and abilities are capped at 10 and 5, respectively, so even with the best possible shape/material/inscription bonuses i'm at 25, and even if ceremonial crafting is allowed, which I don't think it is, that gives me at best another 15), and even one more magnitude requires 25 more points.

This means that I have to invent a spell before I can craft it into a tool, which takes me right back to three months of work.

Unless I'm missing something, I might just start over with a non-crafting concept, since neither of the crafting clans provide the desired result.

Laertes · Post by **Laertes** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:18 am

Remember that when crafting a spell it's probably not a one-off. You're likely to have a repertoire of spells that you craft every so often, so the cost of learning or researching the spell becomes a one-time cost that you pay to enlarge your repertoire, not every time you want to crank out a batch.

Generally in Ars Magica, anything worth doing for the long term takes at least one season. The fact that the Rusticani can sometimes get around this is a Big Deal.

If you're hoping to be able to craft powerful items in non-seasonal time frames at a low Vis cost without learning the spell first... well, we'd all like that. I'd like to be a pony princess too. What you're describing is the combination of the unique selling points of several different entirely playable groups.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:18 am

there's really no teleport spells or the like in Ars Magica, are there? I was thinking some manner of Transport via Plants thing, or opening a portal to Yggdrasil to quickly move between points on the mortal plane would be cool, but doesn't seem possible.

Tangentially, it would also be cool to have a spell that allowed me to reach into a knothole (extant or conjured) and pull out an item, maybe random if done quickly and chosen if done with concentration, basically reaching into all the squirrel nests in the world to look for something useful they've picked up and stashed.

I don't really see anything like Mage's Correspondance.

Also- as I slowly work on my character--
-is it possible to start with an inner mystery? Specifically, I'd kind of like to start with the mystery of the inner heartbeast so I can turn into a particularly large squirrel, or one made of wood.
-So far my Virtues are Mythic Blood (Ratatoskr; Minor Focus- trees; Minor Personality Flaw- reckless), Unbound Tongue, Difficult Longevity Ritual (since norse mythology is all about how no one, not even the gods, can escape their fate) and Magical Animal Companion (either a squirrel or a crow)

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:23 am

Off the top of my head (I'm sure Laertes will have a better answer) teleportation is definitely there. It's a Rego effect. And there's something or other with Scrying using pools as an arcane connection (terminology?) so knotholes might be fine too.

I mean unless you need it to be permanent, that's just a special effect on a Creo. It's hard to target something you don't know about, or in the abstract, though... hm.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:31 am

Ok, I just took a quick look through the main book magic chapter to see if I could find something. I'm still poking at things, and spent most of today trying to read the Bjornaer section in Mystery Cults while watching Orange is the New Black.

Edit: Oh, I just saw that Rego Vim seems to be able to do it. Possibly some variation of Opening the Intangible Tunnel (AM 162)

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:42 am

Check 134 for Rego Corpus guidelines. 10 is enough for a 5-pace teleport, 15 is 50 paces, 20 is 500 paces, 25 is a league, 30 is seven leagues, and 35 is anywhere you have an arcane connection to (so if you take a piece of the stone from your house when you leave, a ReCo 35 will get you back, basically).

Laertes · Post by **Laertes** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:54 am

Prak_Anima wrote:there's really no teleport spells or the like in Ars Magica, are there? I was thinking some manner of Transport via Plants thing, or opening a portal to Yggdrasil to quickly move between points on the mortal plane would be cool, but doesn't seem possible.

Teleportation in Ars Magica is a Rego spell with the form equal to that of whatever you're moving. So to teleport a person is Corpus. You need to have an arcane connection to wherever you're going, but that can just be a stone you picked up off the ground a few months ago when you visited last.

Opening a portal to Yggdrasil and using that to move around would be deep, deep Mysteries stuff. There's a Merinita mystery that can do stuff like that, but the place you're using as a transport route is horribly dangerous. Do not molest the faeries.

Tangentially, it would also be cool to have a spell that allowed me to reach into a knothole (extant or conjured) and pull out an item, maybe random if done quickly and chosen if done with concentration, basically reaching into all the squirrel nests in the world to look for something useful they've picked up and stashed.

Hermetic magic explicitly needs to have a target; in this case it would target the item you're trying to pull out. As such, what you're describing isn't really Hermetic magic.

Which is not to say that you can't do it in the game; lots of magicians self-taught themselves some non-Hermetic stuff before they were spotted and taken as an apprentice. If you want me to bash together a non-Hermetic supernatural Ability to simulate it, I'm more than happy to. Bear in mind that squirrel nests are likely to be, well, full of squirrel stuff; you're not likely to get a lot that's particularly useful.

I don't really see anything like Mage's Correspondance.

No idea what that is; I'm not a D&D player.

Also- as I slowly work on my character--
-is it possible to start with an inner mystery?

No.

-So far my Virtues are Mythic Blood (Ratatoskr; Minor Focus- trees; Minor Personality Flaw- reckless), Unbound Tongue, Difficult Longevity Ritual (since norse mythology is all about how no one, not even the gods, can escape their fate) and Magical Animal Companion (either a squirrel or a crow)

Cool. That's a pretty nice selection, very thematic.

Remember to take two Affinities in Arts. Always take two Affinities in Arts. An Affinity is, next to a Minor Magical Focus, the most powerful thing you can pick up for a minor virtue, and also one of the most characterful. Everyone should have them.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:34 am

Sorry, by Mage's Correspondence, I meant the Correspondence sphere from Mage the Ascension.

The squirrel hole thing would-- huh, actually it's basically an esoteric fluff on a creo (mundane stuff) spell.

I'm also kind of considering taking Shapeshift, since Ratatosk is essentially a minor trickster, and norse tricksters shapeshift. But for some reason I'm thinking we already have a shapeshifter... and yeah, I know about the Bjornaer prejudjce towards shapeshifters.

Laertes · Post by **Laertes** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:07 am

Sorry, by Mage's Correspondence, I meant the Correspondence sphere from Mage the Ascension.

Moving stuff around is Rego (including teleporting it). Viewing other places is Intellego.

The squirrel hole thing would-- huh, actually it's basically an esoteric fluff on a creo (mundane stuff) spell.

You could also do it like that, yes.

I'm also kind of considering taking Shapeshift, since Ratatosk is essentially a minor trickster, and norse tricksters shapeshift. But for some reason I'm thinking we already have a shapeshifter... and yeah, I know about the Bjornaer prejudjce towards shapeshifters.

Shapeshift is a Major Virtue which is really good for non-magi, but for Magi it's easier to just take MuCo(An). It does everything that Shapeshift does, costs less, and also does a whole lot more.

Heaven's Thunder Hammer · Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:43 am

1.) Laertes - I'm not sure if you want to use this option, but the Ars Magica atlas games website

http://forum.atlas-games.com/index.php

has a section dedicated to hosting PbP games. It's a forum setup very similar to this one.

2.) So when you want to start seeing PC magus write ups?

3.)How do you want plus players to do companions and grogs exactly?

4.) In my own games I gave up on completely balancing the boons to the hooks and just kind of took what was necessary to describe the covenant.

That said, balanced is fine, but if want to throw in some extra boons I won't mind.

5.)To really have a discussion about boons and hooks, I do think we need to have some kind of decision on which scenario to play.

6.) At some point I would be interested in using the Lab Rules in Covenants.

7.) Ignoring Build Points is fine - I just want a reasonable build for the covenant's situation.

I.e. with Door #3, much of the covenants resources will have to be discovered through stories.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:21 pm

How do Quiet Magic and Subtle Magic interact with Fast Casting? Since they're Virtues and thus the standard method (as opposed to the casting penalty for doing it abnormally), do they allow Fast Casting with a soft voice/without words/gestures?

EDIT: So I've been doing some reading on medieval European mining, and it appears that a bit of ReTe to do the mining itself, some PeAq to avoid flooding, and some more ReTe to efficiently separate metals out of ores would lead to a fantastically productive mine by medieval standards. Am I missing anything? Maybe, if I had spare time, a third ReTe to move the metal to the surface and an InTe to locate the ores?

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:09 pm

So I'm thinking of being a face, but is that really necessary when you are supposed to get mundane people to do stuff for you as a mage? Also, is Great (Characteristic) worth it to get 5s in Intellect and Stamina?

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:11 pm

Mask_De_H wrote:So I'm thinking of being a face, but is that really necessary when you are supposed to get mundane people to do stuff for you as a mage? Also, is Great (Characteristic) worth it to get 5s in Intellect and Stamina?

It's not necessary, but if you're a Gentle Gift willing to lose the lab time, having a Magus for a covenant's face is very useful.

Getting the high Int can be worthwhile if you're a lab rat. Getting the high stamina... usually not.

Heaven's Thunder Hammer · Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:40 pm

Mask_De_H wrote:So I'm thinking of being a face, but is that really necessary when you are supposed to get mundane people to do stuff for you as a mage? Also, is Great (Characteristic) worth it to get 5s in Intellect and Stamina?

Great characteristic is generally not worth it unless it's for a specific build or RPing. Also recall that ALL characteristics can be raised with very powerful Creo Corpus or Creo Mentem ritual spells at the cost of a bit of warping.

However, it does require a PC specailizing in Creo Corpus (useful for longevity rituals) (Sta, Str, Qik, Dex) or Creo Mentem (Int, Per, Pre, Com).

A Face Magus with Gentle Gift, Subtle Magic and Quiet Magic x2 =Silent Magic is a very potent combination - combined with affinities or puissant Mentem the magus can turn mundanes into puppets and no one is the wiser. Even a Minor Magical Focus in Mentem is very handy done right.

Laertes · Post by **Laertes** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:32 pm

I just got back from running my tabletop game. We're an Ars Magica party but we were playing Dark Heresy this week instead. It was awesome.

Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote:1.) Laertes - I'm not sure if you want to use this option, but the Ars Magica atlas games website

http://forum.atlas-games.com/index.php

has a section dedicated to hosting PbP games. It's a forum setup very similar to this one.

I don't want to have to move forums.

(Also, David Chart reads that forum and I would be really nervous running a game in a place where David Chart can read it. Total performance anxiety.)

2.) So when you want to start seeing PC magus write ups?

I would like to see the players decide on the theme for their game and the theme for their party before anyone puts pen to paper regarding character builds. If the group decides they want to play Magus: the Homesteading, then I don't want to hear people say "but I built a guy who travels around killing guys, I want to do that", because that's nothing but basketweaving.

3.)How do you want plus players to do companions and grogs exactly?

For this game, no companions. If we miss them later, we can put them back in, but I'd rather stick to Wizard + Grog for now.

Regarding grogs: We'll define them loosely (for example, "she's a prodigy with a sword who's travelled around pretending to be a man in order to be allowed to fight" or "he's a blacksmith who had three children with a faerie who vanished one day leaving him to look after them") and then if they need stats they can be statted.

To be honest, building grogs is pretty simple.

4.) In my own games I gave up on completely balancing the boons to the hooks and just kind of took what was necessary to describe the covenant.

That said, balanced is fine, but if want to throw in some extra boons I won't mind.

We'll start with balanced ones but that'll be more a loose sketch than a hard and fast one. For example, if you take Road and then nobody actually cares about it, it'll quietly get dropped by the wayside and I won't make you take something in its place. Equally, if you decide to shelter Jews and give them equal rights, then that's a character decision; I'm not going to demand you take the Hook to balance it out.

I view the Boons and Hooks as being a way for the players to tell me what sort of game they want, without going full-on Bear World about it.

5.)To really have a discussion about boons and hooks, I do think we need to have some kind of decision on which scenario to play.

I concur. I'd like to hear players discuss that. Players, this is your cue to discuss.

6.) At some point I would be interested in using the Lab Rules in Covenants.

Again, I concur. I would like to introduce them, but in order to do that we need to introduce Upkeep in a meaningful sense, and then the game turns into Spreadsheets: the Accounting. Which I don't mind, I'm a professional analyst and it's literally what I spend my days doing, but not for the very start of a game full of new players.

7.) Ignoring Build Points is fine - I just want a reasonable build for the covenant's situation.

I think we will, in any case, start with resources roughly equal to the game's suggestion for the Weak Covenant.

momothefiddler wrote:How do Quiet Magic and Subtle Magic interact with Fast Casting? Since they're Virtues and thus the standard method (as opposed to the casting penalty for doing it abnormally), do they allow Fast Casting with a soft voice/without words/gestures?

They do indeed allow you to Fast Cast like that, since all your magic then becomes soft / gestureless.

EDIT: So I've been doing some reading on medieval European mining, and it appears that a bit of ReTe to do the mining itself, some PeAq to avoid flooding, and some more ReTe to efficiently separate metals out of ores would lead to a fantastically productive mine by medieval standards. Am I missing anything? Maybe, if I had spare time, a third ReTe to move the metal to the surface and an InTe to locate the ores?

Interestingly, when it comes to mining one of the largest costs was the timber used to shore the mines up. It's why tunnel coal mining wasn't really a thing in the medieval era - the wood it would take to build the mine could be burned for more energy than the coal would give you.

But you're right. A magical mine would be an amazingly productive way of extracting metal, and thus could produce substantial revenues.

Mask_De_H wrote:So I'm thinking of being a face, but is that really necessary when you are supposed to get mundane people to do stuff for you as a mage?

As angelfromanotherpin points out, Gentle Gift can be fantastically useful if you're willing to put up with a lot of time out of your lab, because a lot of important dignitaries will be insulted if the magicians send a servant to negotiate with them.

There's a school of thought that says that the correct way to play a Gently Gifted magus isn't as a magus at all, but as a mundane nobleman who gets to use magic to enhance his abilities. So learn to be a knight, hang around with knights, and enjoy being the knight with the best horse and strongest armour and who lives for over a century while not apparently leaving his twenties. Sure, the others can theoretically cast amazing magics, but what they're actually spending all day doing is reading books in cramped labs so they can make wands to help peasants mine coal.

Also, is Great (Characteristic) worth it to get 5s in Intellect and Stamina?

Great Intellect can be useful; I've seen it on lab rat builds. It's something that generalists would like and specialists would abhor. Spending two virtues to get +2 to lab totals is a waste of time if you've got a narrow focus, because a single Puissant Art will give you +3 in an Art instead, but it becomes worth it if you're trying to cover all the Arts.

I've never seen a Great Stamina build but I imagine the same would be true. If you're doing a Diedne or Secondary Insight character, then it might be interesting. However, as angelfromanotherpin points out, it's probably not a worthwhile choice.

Great characteristic is generally not worth it unless it's for a specific build or RPing. Also recall that ALL characteristics can be raised with very powerful Creo Corpus or Creo Mentem ritual spells at the cost of a bit of warping.

This is also true. Creo ritual magic kicks ass.

A Face Magus with Gentle Gift, Subtle Magic and Quiet Magic x2 =Silent Magic is a very potent combination - combined with affinities or puissant Mentem the magus can turn mundanes into puppets and no one is the wiser. Even a Minor Magical Focus in Mentem is very handy done right.

Remember that even if people don't spot you casting mind control magic, they still know what mind control magic is and will be afraid of it. If they see people deal with you and agree to things that they would never normally agree to, then they'll start distrusting you.

In Ars Magica, reputation matters. If your reputation is "Mind Rapist It's Not Safe To Talk To", then you're going to find yourself short of friends.

That said, it is amazingly powerful.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:05 pm

Another question/observation: they don't give you a lot of points to play around with to buy up Arts just out of apprenticeship. You've got 180 with the recommended minimums and you probably want more abilities and stuff. Is Spontaneous Magic or Fast Casting just not a thing you can really do as an apprentice, or am I missing something? And mindfucking does seem powerful but also could go really wrong.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:15 pm

Laertes wrote:
Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote:1.) Laertes - I'm not sure if you want to use this option, but the Ars Magica atlas games website

http://forum.atlas-games.com/index.php

has a section dedicated to hosting PbP games. It's a forum setup very similar to this one.
I don't want to have to move forums.

(Also, David Chart reads that forum and I would be really nervous running a game in a place where David Chart can read it. Total performance anxiety.)

Also the color scheme is painful. I presume you can change that in preferences once you have an account but still! Ow.

Laertes wrote:
2.) So when you want to start seeing PC magus write ups?
I would like to see the players decide on the theme for their game and the theme for their party before anyone puts pen to paper regarding character builds. If the group decides they want to play Magus: the Homesteading, then I don't want to hear people say "but I built a guy who travels around killing guys, I want to do that", because that's nothing but basketweaving.

Laertes wrote:
5.)To really have a discussion about boons and hooks, I do think we need to have some kind of decision on which scenario to play.
I concur. I'd like to hear players discuss that. Players, this is your cue to discuss.

Laertes wrote:Beyond the Borders

Deep in the endless grasslands of Ruthenia near the Cuman border, civilisation is a difficult matter. Magic runs high and monsters abound, but mundane resources are few and far between. The locals live as nomads on the fertile black soil, tending their herds and avoiding threats.

The local king has approached the Order with a proposition: he wants a secure anchor point, a fortification to shore up his boundaries and act as a seed for development. If they can give him that, then they're welcome to any magical resources they can harvest from the endless steppe.

We've Been Here Before

When the hell-rift opened under the cathedral and the local villagers rallied to resist the forces of Satan, nobody thought to contact the wizards. After all, to most people there's little difference between a magus and a demon worshipper anyway, and right then they needed reliable help. So they called the Poor Knights Fellow Soldier of Christ, better known as the Templars.

The templars, on the other hand? they called the magi as soon as it became apparent what had happened wasn't a one-off and that this was a permanent thing.

See, the problem is that necromancers and diabolists constantly want to get in, which makes it harder to keep demons out. Which in turn means you need a permanent presence. Enter the Order of Hermes. After all, building underground labyrinths full of monsters and with locked doors to keep adventurers out can't be that hard, can it?

Laertes wrote:...And After Winter Comes Spring

When the last magus of the ancient covenant of Hastalia went into Final Twilight, the covenfolk faced a difficult choice. On the one hand, the few of them who still remained were comfortable here, even if the legendary wealth was gone and the magic had disappeared over the years. Going elsewhere and being mere peasants was unappealing. On the other hand, they had no way of keeping local warlords and monsters from claiming the ruins. Distraught, they appealed to the Order of Hermes.

After due deliberation, the Order has decided to sponsor a rebuilding effort. There might be ancient treasure still lurking here and there, but most of Hastalia's might is going to have to be rebuilt from scratch. Her shrunken covenfolk population will need to be rejuvenated, and her revenues and vis sources will need to be reestablished. It's almost more work than beginning entirely afresh.

On the other hand, how many wet-behind-the-ears magi get to sit on the ruling council of a four hundred year old covenant and lay claim to the legacies of archmagi?

First off, let me emphasize the fact that going on adventures and killing monsters is absolutely fine with me. Both Beyond the Borders and ...And After Winter Comes Spring allow that to be directly tied to the homesteading that I also like (and that is largely only possible in games that cover long time spans). We've Been Here Before seems a bit farther from what I'm looking for, but could certainly still be fun. I think I have a slight preference for BtB over AAWCS, but they're pretty close.

Laertes wrote:
6.) At some point I would be interested in using the Lab Rules in Covenants.
Again, I concur. I would like to introduce them, but in order to do that we need to introduce Upkeep in a meaningful sense, and then the game turns into Spreadsheets: the Accounting. Which I don't mind, I'm a professional analyst and it's literally what I spend my days doing, but not for the very start of a game full of new players.

The only problems I have with playing Spreadsheets: the Accounting are that a) it has a history of making other people stop playing with me, and b) it can be won, at which point it stops being fun.

Laertes wrote:
EDIT: So I've been doing some reading on medieval European mining, and it appears that a bit of ReTe to do the mining itself, some PeAq to avoid flooding, and some more ReTe to efficiently separate metals out of ores would lead to a fantastically productive mine by medieval standards. Am I missing anything? Maybe, if I had spare time, a third ReTe to move the metal to the surface and an InTe to locate the ores?
Interestingly, when it comes to mining one of the largest costs was the timber used to shore the mines up. It's why tunnel coal mining wasn't really a thing in the medieval era - the wood it would take to build the mine could be burned for more energy than the coal would give you.

But you're right. A magical mine would be an amazingly productive way of extracting metal, and thus could produce substantial revenues.

Oh! Revenues! That too. I was just thinking supplies.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:29 pm

Laertes wrote:
A Face Magus with Gentle Gift, Subtle Magic and Quiet Magic x2 =Silent Magic is a very potent combination - combined with affinities or puissant Mentem the magus can turn mundanes into puppets and no one is the wiser. Even a Minor Magical Focus in Mentem is very handy done right.
Remember that even if people don't spot you casting mind control magic, they still know what mind control magic is and will be afraid of it. If they see people deal with you and agree to things that they would never normally agree to, then they'll start distrusting you.

In Ars Magica, reputation matters. If your reputation is "Mind Rapist It's Not Safe To Talk To", then you're going to find yourself short of friends.

That said, it is amazingly powerful.

Oh man, it's going to be interesting to play The Insult Comic Squirrel Who Makes People Shit Their Organs Out.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:35 am

As a new player, I'd like to experience as much of Ars Magica as I can (except the combat because it seems to suck), which After Winter seems to have the best chance at. I do like the idea of dealing with demons or making loads of magical dosh, but as of now I'm leaning towards door number 3.

Heaven's Thunder Hammer · Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:12 am

I'm an analyst myself; spreadsheets fear me.

I'm not that interested in focusing on mundane wealth, with a bit of foresight before hand getting really wealthy is easy. The covenants book does have a number of good suggestions on magical money making methods.

Rusticani crafting is one way to go there are other interesting synergies. I.e. A minor magical focus in creating animal products can make pearls into jewelry. A second magus with a focus in metals and just making raw metals magically... Combined with the right boons in the covenant...

Basically any magi who are physically poor are either just starting out or too dumb for their own good.

Laertes · Post by **Laertes** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:53 am

My current campaign has a massive Google Documents spreadsheet for tracking the covenant's stuff. Two of the players and myself built it late one night in a very enjoyable bit of analyst-fu, and we've been adding to it since. The only thing holding us back is that Google Docs spreadsheets are childish; if we could put vlookups, sumifs and pivots into it we totally would.

Then again, that game started off with a playerbase of two scientists, three analysts and a manager, so we're probably a bad example when it comes to parties. Or maybe not. Ars Magica is known for having a weird playerbase.

However, it sounds like HTH and momothefiddler are both similarly talented people when it comes to numerical analysis. Therefore, gentlemen, if the party decide that they would like to use the Covenants system for tracking stuff rather than just handwaving it, I shall ask you to build the following:

A) The covenant's vis wealth tracking sheet (keeping track of how much of what type you have in stores, what your sources are, and how much is owned by which magi.)

B) The covenant's mundane finances sheet (keeping track of how much we're spending on what, how much we have coming in, and what the difference is between those two numbers.)

The reasons I'm asking the two of you to do it are that firstly I don't want it to be nought but GM masturbation; and secondly I would like to give other players the opportunity to engage with that sort of play as much or as little as they like.

In other words, if Prak Anima wants to gallavant around being The Insult Squirrel Who Makes People Shit Their Guts Out, and doesn't want to have to give a shit about how much the covenant spent on firewood this year, he should be allowed to. You can just tell him "the maximum you can spend on your lab is an upkeep of +2" and he can take that information and run with it. However, if momothefiddler wants to know how money the covenant can save if it makes its own cloth rather than buying it in, he should similarly be allowed to, and should be allowed to feel good about himself because now everyone can afford shinier swords. Different things for different people.