Do Americans/Europeans all sleep in Australian afternoons?

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:32 am

I'll admit that I am mostly putting mine off because I hate the skill system with a fiery passion. But here's a question now that I've skipped ahead to equipment and feats so I don't have to do the goddamn skills yet:

Lances are a two-handed weapon, but the iconic image of a jousting knight includes both lance and shield. The Macedonian phalanx is less iconic but also something that should probably be emulated, and they wield 13+ foot pikes (which, as a polearm reach weapon, is basically just your D&D lance) along with shields. Would it be a big deal if lances were one-handed weapons, at least while mounted (granted, that does not cover the phalanx thing, but since I'm playing a knight and not a hoplite that's not as big a concern)?

Also: How much do you care about the Knight's code of conduct? The only thing that seems like it might ever be irritating is the ban on selling magic items (and maybe the ban on poisoning blades), so it's not much of a big deal, but if I'm going to have a code of conduct it'd be neat if it could be tailored to some kind of specific knightly order I could dream up rather than just a one-size-fits-all thing. I don't need to care that much for this particular character, but more customization is fun and in any case it is my general opinion that paladin-style codes of conduct are only defensible if a player has a say in what the code actually is.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:07 am

I was under the impression that lances were one-handed weapons when mounted. If not, they now are.

I'm okay with working out some kind of relevant code of conduct for a specific Order you want to enter.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:10 am

"A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. It has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.

While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand. "

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:25 am

Found a spot in the university library with decent internet. I'd prefer Tuesdays, but I could do Mondays, Wednesdays, and on some weeks Thursdays. I'll finish off my cheap equipment now.

Edit: Okay, cheap equipment done.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:00 am

Okay, so here's what I was thinking for Hell Knights:

Code of Conduct: select three of the following:

Must make a yearly sacrifice of one (non-expendible) Magic Item
Must never show mercy nor leniency - repay all sleights with death
Must perform a yearly delve into the Blood War for one mission
Must slay one Demon (of rank Babau or greater) per month
Must provide one soul (of any value) per year
Must never enter Consecrated or Hallowed ground other than to remove said effect
After every kill, must taste the blood of your foe
Must always bear the symbol or icon of your patron
All Cold Iron found must be sacrificed to your patron
Must allow your senses to be used freely by your patron, and monthly control
Must never intentionally resist the magical abilities of a Devil of that type
Never cooperate with, nor accept assistance from, any Celestial, nor Demon
May never accept pity, mercy, charity or assistance from any other - cannot benefit from Aid Other actions and must attempt to resist [Harmless] effects unless cast by yourself

You are provided with a steed. It's a horse. Later on, if you please your patron (and seem strong enough), you can be given a fiendish horse, a fiendish lion/rhino/megaraptor/dire animal, a greater barghest, a nightmare, a corrupted Pegasus/unicorn or similar. This does not preclude you from going and training your own steed if you have your own ideas, mind you.

Special: upon reaching level ten and being fully initiated into the ranks of the Hell Knight legions, the benefits are largely the same as listed in Races of War: the ability to see in even magical darkness, the ability to detect what others find most repugnant. Additionally, you are given a Moderate Magical Weapon, Shield or suit of Armour is granted, made from Baatorian Green Steel, with the specific special ability being your choice. It also means you automatically qualify for [some relevant PrCl that is themed as "Hell Knight", even if I have to whip one up, or slightly modify an existing one, themed to your patron]

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:27 am

Koumei wrote:Special: upon reaching level ten and being fully initiated into the ranks of the Hell Knight legions, the benefits are largely the same as listed in Races of War: the ability to see in even magical darkness, the ability to detect what others find most repugnant. Additionally, you are given a Moderate Magical Weapon, Shield or suit of Armour is granted, made from Baatorian Green Steel, with the specific special ability being your choice. It also means you automatically qualify for [some relevant PrCl that is themed as "Hell Knight", even if I have to whip one up, or slightly modify an existing one, themed to your patron]

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=252006#252006

Prak_Anima wrote:Hell Rider

Once in a while, fiends will make a faustian pact with a mortal. In this pact the mortal may be turned into a Hell Rider, a sort of Infernal bounty hunter weilding pure Hellfire. In return, the mortal will get whatever it is mortal's want, money, love, the life of a love one saved from some horrible disease, or some other thing that could just as easily be obtained with the proper spell from a cleric or wizard. Though other times, they get what they really want, or nothing at all. Such is the nature of deals with fiends.

Requirements
Skills: Ride or Drive 8r
Feats: Devil's Favour
Base Ref Save: +4
Special: Must make a pact with a fiend. The pact need not be formed for the express purpose of creating a Hell Rider

Game Info
HD: d8
Good Ref
Good BAB
Skills (6+int): Bluff, Control Shape, Diplomacy, [Drive], Handle Animal, Intimidate, Kn. Arcana, Kn. Religion, Kn. the Planes, Move Silently, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Power Source: Infernal

Lv Special
1st Fiendish Tracker, Alternate Form, Hell's Mount, Hellfire Sphere
2nd Bonus Feat
3rd Damage Reduction, Sphere
4th The Long Ride, Bonus Feat
5th Sphere

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: The Hell Rider gains proficiency in all chain weapons, longsword, and lances. He also gains proficiency in leather, studded leather and brigandine armour(Oriental Adventures).

Fiendish Tracker: At some point in their natural life, the Hell Rider must track down a bounty for his fiendish patron.
This task can vary to include the following: humiliating a target, aquiring a specific object, capturing a specific creature, bringing a creature dead or alive to a specific point. These are not the only tasks that the Hell Rider's devilish master may appoint to them however; often the assigned tasks are meant to removed the agents of rivals or to indirectly aid the patron's other minions or his enemies rivals.
Often the handing over of a powerful devil to celestial authorities by a Hell Rider is followed up by both the release and aid of said devil to continue their work that was hampering the archedevil of contradictions.
In addition, the Hell Rider may track a target "through Hell and high water" as it were. With a connection, a personal item, a picture, a lock of hair, or the like, the Rider will unerringly know the direction of their target. The Rider may only track a single target at a time, and anything that would block the target from detection of any kind blocks the Rider's tracking ability.

Alternate Form (Ex): At night, the Hell Rider is affected by a terrifying transformation into an image of hellish death. The skin of his head and hands burns away to reveal bone wreathed in hellfire, and his clothes take on a more menacing appearance (metal studs become spikes, the clothing becomes darker and burned, etc.). This transformation has no mechanical effect, except to give studded leather armour, if worn, spikes (happy birthday). In this form, the Hell Rider gains profane bonuses of +6 str, and +4 con, and a deflection bonus to his armour class equal to his class level, and immunity to fire and hellfire. He also gains a hellfire aura that functions as the burn ability of the fire elemental, except that it deals hellfire damage rather than fire damage. The Hell Rider cannot maintain this alternate form in direct sunlight, and reverts to his normal form at daybreak. He may still assume the form in shadow (or otherwise outside of direct sunlight) during the day with a successful Control Shape check (DC 20). Control Shape can also affect this ability in all ways as it does the lycanthrope ability of the same name, treat this form as an 'animal' form, and use the diliniation of night and day rather than moon phase.

Hell's Mount (Ex): Any vehicle piloted by or mount rode by a Hell Rider is possessed by a diabolical steed spirit that is loyal to that Hell Rider. Once possessed, it is affected by a transformation similar to the Hell Rider's alternate form, it is left skeletal and wreathed in hellfire. This aura of hellfire gives the steed the fire and hellfire immunity and hellfire burn ability of the Hell Rider's alternate form. The spirit can animate objects it possesses, and it has an intelligence score of 3. It can be trained with Handle Animal as if it were a magical beast, but already knows the command "heel". The vehicle or mount can travel indefinitely without need for rest, food/fuel, or healing/repair so long as it is taking at least a double move action, and does not suffer non-lethal damage from extended hustling, running or forced march. The Hell's Mount can travel upon any surface at normal speed, at any angle (Air is not a surface, but water is, as are clouds). The mount and Hell Rider share an empathic link. A creature gains 2 bonus HD per Hell Rider level of master, while an object gains 5 bonus hardness (min 10) and 15 bonus hp per master class level, both types of mount gain an additional 50% speed per master class level. The Hell's Mount of a 3rd level Hell Rider has spell resistance as the special mount of a paladin of the master's character level, and a fifth level Hell Rider's Hell's Mount can command fiends.

Hellfire Sphere: The Hell Rider gains basic access to the Hellfire Sphere. It's mental trait is automatically a gleeful list to punish the wicked.

The Long Ride(Ex.): A Hell Rider traveling on his Hell's Mount ability has no need to eat, drink, or sleep. This ability functions even in direct sunlight so long as the journey began in shadow or at night.

Hellfire [Fiendish Sphere]
Granted Ability: Hellfire Infusion (Su): Any weapon, damaging spell, spell like ability or magic item weilded by a Hell Rider in Alternate Form can be infused with Hellfire to deal an additional 1d6 points of hellfire damage per step of spell like ability granted by the Hellfire sphere (1-2 HD=1, 3-4 HD=2, 5-6 HD=3, etc.). Each use of this power deals one point of con damage to the Hell Rider. Weapons, spells, spell like abilities and magic items which already deal Hellfire damage only gain half this increase.
1-2 HD: Produce Hellflame (as produce flame, but deals hellfire damage.)
3-4
5-6 HD: Penance Stare (Enervation) (does not affect creatures with more eyes than the Hell Rider, creatures without souls [elementals, oozes, most undead, vermin], Arch Fiends, and a target with it's own Penance Stare ability may target the Hell Rider with it even as it's targeted)
7-8
9-10
11-12
13-14
15-16
17-18
19-20

still being reworked.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:37 am

Eh, it's incomplete and while I totally get that it's a Ghost Rider thing, it's not really what I was after. Looking through, there are a couple of Undeath Knights, but no Fiend Knights, so let me fix that:

The Hell Knight
"We're moving forward on the genocide plan, but it takes time, because I have to keep moving to the side when I move forward."

Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +10
Skills: Knowledge (The Planes) 13 ranks, Ride 13 ranks, Survival 13 ranks
Special: must swear an oath of allegiance to the Hellish Legion
Special: a tenth-level Knight who joins the Order of Hell Knights automatically qualifies for this prestige class, regardless of skill ranks.

Hit Die: 1d12
Base Attack Bonus: GoodEvil
Saving Throws: Good Fort and Will
Skill Points: 4 + Int
Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft (Any), Diplomancy, Forgery, Gather Information, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty, The Planes), Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival


Level:	Special:	Designate:
1	Hell Steed, Knight of the Nine Hells	Curse
2	Bonus Feat	+1d6
3	Baron of the Nine Hells	+1d6
4	Sphere Access	Immolate
5	Hellfire Shield	+1d6
6	Duke of the Nine Hells	+1d6
7	Gate Walker	Terrify
8	Bonus Feat	+1d6
9	Prince of the Nine Hells	+1d6
10	Force of Vile Darkness	Execute

Hell Steed (Ex): the Hell Knight is granted a special mount, a Nightmare that is clad in Baatorian Greensteel Scale Barding, with Basic Magical Enhancement. The Nightmare has additional Outsider hit dice such that its total hit dice equals the Knight's total hit dice. If it reaches fifteen hit dice, it becomes a Cauchemar Nightmare. Should this steed be slain, another one is sent in seven days.

Knight of the Nine Hells (Ex): the Hell Knight receives a proper title, with full recognition as such. He gains the [Baatezu, Evil, Lawful] Subtypes, but does not yet receive the Summoning ability. He also gains the ability to see Invisible creatures as a constant effect.

Designate Opponent (Ex): if the Hell Knight already has the Designate Opponent ability of a Knight, then it improves, gaining an additional 1d6 damage on every level except first, fourth, seventh and tenth. At first level, once per round it also delivers a Bestow Curse effect. At fourth level, once per round (but not on the same attack as the curse) it may force the opponent to attempt a Reflex Save or burst into unholy flames, suffering 2d8 damage per round (half Fire, half Unholy) until it is put out. At seventh level, once per round (but not on the same attack as the hellfire or curse), the foe must pass a Will Save or Panic for 1d4 rounds. At tenth level, once per round (but not on the same attack as any of the other special abilities), the foe must pass a Fortitude Save or have their soul stolen and bound, their body crumbling to dust. A soulless creature is instantly destroyed on a failed save. Even undead and objects are subject to this effect.

In all cases, the Save DC is 10 + half the Knight's hit dice + the Knight's Charisma Bonus.

Bonus Feats: at levels 2 and 8, the Hell Knight gains a Bonus [Fiend] feat. He must meet the prerequisites, but keep in mind that he is an actual Fiend, thus meets the main requirement.

Baron of the Nine Hells (Ex): at level three, the Hell Knight becomes a Baron, and is officially recognised as such. He receives a Major Magic Item, which is a weapon, shield or suit of armour, made from Baatorian Greensteel. In the case of a Knight of the Order of Hell Knights, he trades his previous Moderate item in, getting an upgrade. Additionally, he gains the Summon ability of a devil: once per day, he has a 60% chance of summoning one Hamatula for one hour. Every level thereafter, the chance of success increases by 5%, and every two levels thereafter the number doubles (2 Hamatula at level 5, 4 at level 7, 8 at level 9).

Sphere Access: at level four, the Hell Knight may select any one Fiendish Sphere. He gains Basic Access to it.

Hellfire Shield (Su): at level five, the Hell Knight is perpetually protected against hellfire - he is immune to Divine damage (such as from Flamestrike), and all adjacent allies gain resistance to Fire and Divine damage, each equal to his hit dice plus his Shield Bonus to AC (if any). Furthermore, any foe who successfully hits him with a melee attack or melee touch attack suffers damage equal to his Shield Bonus to AC (if any) plus 1d6 - half the damage is Fire, the other half is Divine.

Duke of the Nine Hells (Ex): at level six, the Hell Knight is recognised as a Duke. Every month, he receives 50,000GP (whether in coin or in materials), and he is given a plot of land (in the Nine Hells) to rule or oversee. He may add his Charisma Bonus as a Resistance Bonus on all Saving Throws, and his Summoned creatures are strengthened as though by the Augment Summons feat (+4 Strength and Constitution).

Gate Walker (Su): at level seven, the Hell Knight can open a Gate (travel version only) at will.

Prince of the Nine Hells (Ex): at ninth level, the Hell Knight is recognised as an actual Prince, and gains an entire region of a layer (of his choice) to rule, complete with an actual keep, palace or fortress. He constantly has a True Seeing effect, and becomes immune to [Death] effects, as well as Level Drain/Negative Levels. With his income, he now receives a CR 10 soul every week.

Force of Vile Darkness (Ex): at tenth level, the Hell Knight is a major force of evil. He radiates a permanent Desecrate and Unhallow effect, may cast Dispel Good at will, and with a Standard Action can make a melee attack that also hits the target with a Blasphemy effect.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:45 pm

Sir Death Metal is complete except for a few finishing touches:

-Since the mount is provided for free, I have a bunch of spare gold. I am open to suggestions as to how to spend it. I might get some cheap barding, except that I don't really suspect that people will often be targeting my mount instead of me. Although if I put up with the Ride checks, a heavy warhorse can actually do more damage with its hooves than I can with a warhammer.

-Speaking of Ride checks, the DC for making your mount attack is ten. Now being that it's a melee attack it is pretty unambiguous that I'd be threatened in this case, but can I just take 10 on it anyway? Or even just take 4? Taking 4 would work.

-Double-checking, but being mounted counts as having high ground by default, correct? It's worth a +1 in melee and since prancing around on a horse is sort of the Knight's thing I'd like to squeeze as much out of it as I can.

-Lastly, I'm not sure about what background I'd like to take and I also have a direction I'd like to take the character in which is not entirely mechanically supported. Specifically, I like the idea of a guy who is trying to assemble all the knowledge in the world into a grand library somewhere. And since this is Souled Out, it's also going to be a private library and he'll be torching any copies of stuff he's already got, so that he is the only one with the knowledge. You would expect a guy like this to have lots of Knowledge skills, but the Knight really doesn't have any skills to spare (goddammit skills). Also, Knowledge skills are typically completely useless, however there's some stuff in the campaign info that suggests it might actually be important here. If it's not important (or if it is, but just not that important), I'd like to have the following background:

Dynastic Librarian
You are descended from a long line of Illuminati-esque conspirators seeking to conquer the world through control of information and knowledge. This dynasty was wiped out save for you as a result of the dreadwood elf/legion of undead/demon fiasco of an adventure that led up to all this mess.
Benefit: You gain sixteen bonus skill points at level 1 and four bonus skill points every level thereafter which must be spent exclusively on Knowledge skills.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:17 pm

If you've got nothing else to spend on you could see if Koumei will allow a magebred horse (normally twice the price of a base animal) by spending the amount of gold the horse would normally cost. You could then apply Warbeast to it later on if that's allowed.

Also, I found out that there's a Moderate Magic Item property called Perspective on Rob's list that lets you switch between one size larger and smaller at will, so I'm having second thoughts about dipping Soulborn if I can find or hire someone to make one of those later on.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:18 am

Chamomile wrote:I have a bunch of spare gold. I am open to suggestions as to how to spend it. I might get some cheap barding, except that I don't really suspect that people will often be targeting my mount instead of me.

If they can reach it more easily than you, they might. Other than that, I suggest giving yourself a weapon, shield and armour. Obviously one of these is the mega item, but the rest are paid for with gold. Then you might want to keep money set aside or buy trade goods or whatever.

Speaking of Ride checks, the DC for making your mount attack is ten. Now being that it's a melee attack it is pretty unambiguous that I'd be threatened in this case, but can I just take 10 on it anyway? Or even just take 4? Taking 4 would work.

I will let you take 10, sure.

Double-checking, but being mounted counts as having high ground by default, correct?

I think so?

Now, on Skills. That one actually gives you no reason to collect the books, you already know everything, and it's a bit much. Instead, I posit this:

"When referencing written material that is relevant to the topic at hand, if you have at least one rank in a given Knowledge skill, you can instead use your highest Knowledge bonus, before applying modifiers for a particularly relevant source of information".

And then every time a new book is found, I'll mention "This is relevant to Know (Arcana), and also to Deific Dragons, Draconic Deities, and the Elemental Planes. It gives +2 when dealing specifically with Elemental creatures or Dragon creatures" or whatever.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:29 pm

So a samurai, a monk, and a knight walk into a bar...

Any other takers on this? Healing is going to be interesting.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:44 pm

Once again, no one is playing as a Cock Hurler. For shame.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:58 pm

Koumei wrote:Using the contents of a healing kit and one minute, you may tend to someone's wounds. Make a Heal check. The target regains hit points equal to the result of the skill check.

If we can take 20, one healing kit should cover out of battle healing well enough even without any ranks (I've got +3 WIS). It's 50 GP for ten uses so I suppose I could buy one.

If we seem a bit melee heavy, I suppose I could use a Beguiler with spheres and/or domains attuned for extra spells (I guess I could blow one on the healing sphere), and that would also let me be a skill monkey.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:19 am

Yes, you can take 20 on using a healing kit. So you spend 20 minutes and the full contents of a kit, and regain 20+Wis+Healranks in HP, which should actually see you to full HP for a few levels.

It'd be grand if we could get all the characters completed.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:28 am

Skip's as ready as he's gonna be. Maybe with 400 GP in his pocket, but ready.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:09 am

Maxus, maybe you could make a case for qualifying for Hero of the Peasants.

Races of War wrote:Hero of the Peasants
You're the third son of a poor woodcutter or something. Maybe your father remarried and your new mother hates you. Whatever. The point is that you come from an exceedingly poor background, and your plucky spirit and do-gooder nature propels you forward to make a difference in the world.
Effect: It's not that you're too lazy to pick starting equipment it's that… OK, you're too lazy to pick out starting equipment. Believe me, I understand. A Hero of the Peasants character begins play practically naked. Leather armor or functional clothing, a sling, a quarterstaff, 10 copper pieces, and some bread. Have fun with that. But you're just generally kind of awesome. You get a +2 bonus on Survival, Handle Animal, and Sense Motive checks for no reason. And don't forget that you probably have a destiny of some sort, which means that periodically the DM will go off on a tirade about your destiny (this is worth nothing, all D&D characters have a destiny).

Nominating this (or possibly a nerfed version) for a character background:

Parkour enthusiast
You spent lots of time flipping over things for no reason.

Benefit: You may consider jump, climb and swim (athletics) and balance, tumble and ride (acrobatics) to be single skills for the purposes of ranks invested.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:00 am

Well, Skip kinda has his weapon and armor out of the way. Doesn't have enough money for many potions. So yeah. Kinda tough to find something else.

Do need to pick a background, apparently.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:09 pm

There seems to be some kind of confusion as to the purpose of Backgrounds. I feel even the Book-Learnin' one is pushing it, but really: it's to provide some kind of backstory, preferably the kind that ties you into the game or gives hooks so the MC can provide baddies relevant to you, and in return you get some minor benefits. Or the benefits are a bit better but at a price (Illithid Experiment, Raised by Owlbears).

It's not supposed to be "pick something you want to be good at, become good at that."

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:46 pm

Neither my version of the background nor yours even conveys a minor benefit. Both of them are throwing the background away, because Knowledge skills are completely useless. I mean, it's not a huge deal, and I don't really care for purposes of this game, but for purposes of the skill system working at all it's a huge mess and both the backgrounds you've taken issue with are examples why, so I'm going to rant about that.

There is an enormous proliferation of Knowledge skills, and yet they are close to the most useless skill in the game. If you want to be a well-rounded scholar of all things, even if you only invest half-ranks in Knowledge skills, you are going to need to suck up no less than four and a half skills' worth of points. That is over half what your average Wizard will get, and a Cleric, who fits the archetype nearly as well but gets fewer skill points and has no reason to boost INT, won't even have enough to do that if he invests all of his skill points into it. Not so that you can do something actually useful, like if you could make a Knowledge check to get a +1 against a certain type of monster because you've identified its weak spots or something. The actual rules of Knowledge checks let you do exactly two things: Look up the monster's entry in the Monster Manual (most GMs don't care if you just do that) or beg the GM for useful information. By far the biggest actual utility for Knowledge skills are the tiny synergy bonuses you get to other skills that you might actually use, and even then you need five ranks to get a +2 bonus, so it's only worth it if you are minmaxing that particular skill, and even then it only applies in certain narrow circumstances.

And there is also an enormous proliferation of skills that all boil down to "get from point A to point B through slightly unusual means." Let's say you want to play a parkour guy, someone who can use his environment to move through his environment. That is a reasonably class-agnostic trick, it doesn't look quite right for anyone wearing heavy armor but there's no strong reason it wouldn't mesh with a Rogue, or a Bard, or a Ranger, or even a Wizard. He won't have the STR/DEX to pull it off quite so well as the more dedicated sneaker classes, but it's not like "Wizard who knows parkour" is somehow an inherently bad concept, or at all unbalanced.

And in order to play this concept, you need to sink points into no less than four different skills (Jump, Climb, Tumble, and Balance, this is ignoring Swim which is not really part of the concept but which would also be perfectly reasonable to bundle in with two or three of the others), which for some classes is almost all of them, leaving almost nothing for stuff like Spot, Hide, or Gather Information. "Parkour" requires 4 skills, but "stealth" and "perception" require two a piece, even though each of those three things is about equally useful (though under certain GMs perception will be considerably more useful). And under the house rules for this game in particular, you can get stealth and perception for only half the skill points you'd need to get just parkour, and a bit less than a quarter of the skill points you'd need to become a master of Trivial Pursuit.

The minor benefit people are trying to wring out of their backgrounds here is to make the skill system work like it always should've worked, in much the same way as feats are often used by WotC. And I feel I should re-iterate: This is not a big deal. I would like to have some mechanical backing to the Illuminati librarian concept, but I can still just run a guy who can collects books all the time even if he can't spout out relevant information on any subject because I guess he just collects them and never actually reads them (certainly I am not shifting away one of only four skills I can learn to the useless Knowledge - One of them is Ride which I need for a feat, and the other three are the actually very important Spot, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy, and there is a long list of other skills that would also probably be more important if any of those three turn out not to be as important as expected). Mostly the skill system is bad and I want to yell at it.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:31 pm

I don't like the skill system either but I don't think we should use backgrounds to patch it. I wouldn't mind some skill consolidation.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:44 pm

I have all kinds of house rules that can be used to revise the skill system to be better. I have, in fact, a completely overhauled skill system that, while still not entirely good, is considerably less bad. But patching things with backgrounds is much easier and I'm not sure Koumei wants to be burdened with an assload of house rules.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:11 pm

Post them. No harm if Koumei doesn't feel like using them. Might be worth a shot. Here's my slightly ripped off from Pathfinder take (which could definitely use refinement, but I need to go offline now):

A few suggestions for consolidated skills, could have more I guess (putting ranks into any gets you ranks in all):

Acrobatics: Balance, Tumble, Ride
Athletics: Jump, Climb, Swim
Deception: Bluff, Disguise
Legerdemain: Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope
Linguistics: Decipher Script, Forgery, Speak Language
Perception: Spot, Listen, Search
Stealth: Move Silently, Hide

Knowledges (putting ranks into the skills on the right grant you knowledge ranks as well. If you have more ranks than your level, the extra ranks don't count until you level up):

Arcane> Spellcraft / UMD
Dungeoneering> Spellcraft / Survival
Engineering> Appraise / Craft / Disable Device / Perception
Geography> Perception / Survival
History> Appraise / Linguistics
Local> Bluff / Diplomacy / Sense Motive
Nature> Handle Animal / Survival
Nobility> Appraise / Diplomacy / Sense Motive
Planes> Spellcraft / Survival
Religion> Spellcraft

As for background, if I can't think of a unique one in time, I'll probably go with either Raised by Owlbears or Royalty of a Fallen Nation. Street Rat's rock girl plot seems interesting, but it seems like a one time thing (unless she becomes a recurring villain or something).

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:09 am

I'm willing to just put some semi-consolidation in, applying to every man and his dog.

Jump/Climb/Swim: when moving about the place, use your highest number of ranks amongst these. They are not the same skill for the purpose of [Skill] Feats or granting Synergy Bonuses, and your +8 to Swim for having a Swim Speed does not apply to your jumping or whatever.

Balance/Tumble/Ride: as above, use your highest number of ranks for any of these when making checks. But not for Synergy Bonuses or [Skill] Feats. As above, special bonuses to Tumble checks won't transfer over to Ride checks or whatever.

Escape Artist/Use Rope: same deal as above.

Decipher Script/Forgery: same as above.

Speak Language: Seeing as "Speak Language" doesn't even work like any other skill, you can just have a bonus language known for every rank you purchase in D-Script or Forgery. Whatevs.

You'll note that Perception and Stealth are also largely covered in the Skill houserules I'd made.

Each Knowledge can now also have one non-Knowledge skill that you can substitute instead for the purpose of skill checks, with some non-Knowledge skills pulling double duty or whatever:

-Spellcraft covers Arcana, Planes and Religion
-Disable Device covers Engineering
-Survival covers Geography and Dungeoneering
-Sense Motive covers Nobility & Royalty and Local
-Handle Animal covers Nature
-Decipher Script/Forgery covers History

And the MC bullshit limit is now at 7/10.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:42 pm

Thanks. Alright, I'm going for Raised by Owlbears, modified my skill list and added a Healer's kit. And with that, I think I'm done unless I'm forgetting something.

Link: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=392255#392255

Do we need to make sheets in Mythweavers?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:40 am

Awesome. At a quick lookover it all seems fine.

You can use MW if you want, but don't have to. Honestly you can scribble it on a napkin and scan it for all I care, as long as I can see it and you have regular access to it. For the latter bit, keeping a notepad file on your PC is generally advised, in case the site goes down during gametime.

I bet you were doing that anyway.