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Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
I see lots of people complainijg the Dex builds were nerfed (like myself) and the Thief vanished from the game. If that proves true, then its awesomely good news.


I mean don't get me wrong, I know you are an idiot, but surely even you can read?

How is it a good thing that you can build a Dex build that outputs shit for damage, when you were complaining about dex builds outputting shit for damage?

300 bleed damage is fucking trivial at the levels you are talking about.
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silva
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

330 for bleed/poison damage ? Is that possible with a non-Dex build ?

If it is, you have a point. If not, I do.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
330 for bleed/poison damage ? Is that possible with a non-Dex build ?

If it is, you have a point. If not, I do.


You are a fucking idiot. If you do 330 Bleed damage on a dex build, and I do 4000000000090900654446574741746565 non-bleed damage on a Str build, then your Bleed damage is fucking shit, and Dex builds are shit.

You fucking idiot.
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silva
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I dont think youre understanding me here.

According to those guys, each Bandit Knife +10 infused with bleed does 330 bleed damage + normal phys damage (100 if I aint mistaken). Supposing youre Dual wielding and power stancing, that amounts to more or less double those values in only 1 strike. (the guy said 2 power strikes are enough to effect the bleed, and then its a matter of just watching the enemy die).

Can you do that kind of damage with a Str-based character ?
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Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
I dont think youre understanding me here.

According to those guys, each Bandit Knife +10 infused with bleed does 330 bleed damage + normal phys damage (100 if I aint mistaken). Supposing youre Dual wielding and power stancing, that amounts to more or less double those values in only 1 strike. (the guy said 2 power strikes are enough to effect the bleed, and then its a matter of just watching the enemy die).

Can you do that kind of damage with a Str-based character ?


You can do way the fuck more damage than that with a str character. Punching is faster than bandit knifes, and at SL 50 my character does 350 damage per punch.

With my old mundane build I have a twin blade which is 5-7 attacks in a second and each attack does 325 damage. And each knife doesn't do 300 bleed damage, you do 300 bleed damage when you trigger bleed, which means each knife does zero bleed damage until you hit on a powerstanced attack, in which case it triggers bleed once.

So you are doing maybe 500 damage on a combo attack, which is pathetic.
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icyshadowlord
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've been told that Dex kinda sucks this time around, but what do you guys say? For the most part, it seemed like Dex was the better combat stat for PvP in the first Dark Souls, but now it seems that Str does more damage AND weapons based off it actually have a durability that is worth a damn. Also, why the hell do some of the hexes have such insanely high stat requirements yet the damage soft caps when both Int and Faith are at 30?
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silva
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hmmm... how much damage a 300 bleed effect does when it triggers ? In your example, for a "Dex-bleeder" to be competitive with your Str-boxer, he must be able to do the equivalent of your 1500 damage through 5 strikes. As he does just 500 phys damage through strikes, the bleed should take at least more 1000 damage from the target.

Damn, this game mechanics are even more opaque than DS1.
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Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

@silva

Please read below response to icyshadow starting at the fourth paragraph.

icyshadowlord wrote:
I've been told that Dex kinda sucks this time around, but what do you guys say? For the most part, it seemed like Dex was the better combat stat for PvP in the first Dark Souls, but now it seems that Str does more damage AND weapons based off it actually have a durability that is worth a damn. Also, why the hell do some of the hexes have such insanely high stat requirements yet the damage soft caps when both Int and Faith are at 30?


Because Dark stat caps are the same as Magic and Lightning stat caps and you can suck a dick if you want to only have a 30 in each stat you filthy munchkin.

All the soft caps are stupid as shit when it comes to magic. Fire actually does more 40-60 than it does 10-20. Everything else in the games caps at most 50. Why is the stat that scales off of two things also go the highest? Fuck if I know. But as punishment, all the fire abilities suck, because they have shit for range, so... there you go.

Also, there is a bunch of hidden power in spells that you can't fucking see, because if you have the same lightning and magic and implements, Greater Lightning still does more damage than Ice Spear, and the difference is based on... some base damage numbers that no one fucking knows and are completely opaque. Fuck that shit.

As for dex vs Str, str does way way way way the fuck more damage. The reason dex builds exist and are competitive if not superior in PvP is because shields exist. Everyone has a 100% physical block shield. No one has a 100% bleed and poison reduction shield.

So there are tons of dex builds with their crappy durability that still work in PvP because they have enough durability to kill someone and the way they do it is by spamming attacks against a shield until the poison or bleed triggers, then rolling away, then repeating.

However, those builds lose to Str dual wields who do more damage and more poise damage if you do hit, since they can't shield anything. However, those Str dual wields lose to Shield and sword builds that can just block 100% of their damage (or 90% if they have lightning or whatever attached). Who in turn lose to the dex builds.

All of whom auto win against mages if you are competent, but auto lose to pyros who cast Forbidden Sun.
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silva
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It seems from a pure damage output POV, Dex is really crap as you mentioned. Though my initial suspicions are not all that off, as the bleed/poison effects seem useful against certain builds.

Funny its almost looking like a rock-paper-scissors by that text, which is an interesting thing, since it show the game has a good nuance and cant be dominated by one or two OP builds.

Thanks for the info.


*by the way, I just read in some wiki that bleeding also has the effect of reducing the target stamina to 70% when it triggers. This is interesting and could sinnergize nicely with a hi-agility and stamina bleeder build.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
*by the way, I just read in some wiki that bleeding also has the effect of reducing the target stamina to 70% when it triggers. This is interesting and could sinnergize nicely with a hi-agility and stamina bleeder build.


Honestly, not really. Stamina costs for basically everything are so high that you are pretty much 100% running on stamina regen during fights, not max stamina. There is no build that cares even a tenth as much about 30% less stamina as they would about the bleed damage.

Also, I looked it up, and Bleed and Poison scale better with dex from 50-99 than physical damage does on Str, so maybe for some niche builds in the SL 300 range you could actually have more poison or bleed damage on your build.
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silva
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, if your default stamina allows you to strike 4 times a roll-out, when the bleed kicks youll probably just have 2 strikes and a roll-out (or 3 strikes and no roll). Make of that what you will. I still think its an interesting effect that could be explored depending on your adversary fighting style.
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icyshadowlord
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

@Kaelik

I actually raised my Hexer's Int and Faith to 45.
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"Lurker and fan of random stuff." - Icy's occupation
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virgil wrote:
And has been successfully proven with Pathfinder, you can just say you improved the system from 3E without doing so and many will believe you to the bitter end.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
Well, if your default stamina allows you to strike 4 times a roll-out, when the bleed kicks youll probably just have 2 strikes and a roll-out (or 3 strikes and no roll). Make of that what you will. I still think its an interesting effect that could be explored depending on your adversary fighting style.


Actually, if your default stamina allows you to strike four times and roll out, then 70% of your stamina allows you to strike for 4 times and roll out. Because stamina regens faster than you break poise block, so literally all that happens is you attack until you run out of stamina, wait a short moment, obtain 1 stamina, make final attack, and then wait another moment, have 1 stamina, and roll out. Because the real thing that effects number of attacks is attack patterns, not stamina.
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silva
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
Actually, if your default stamina allows you to strike four times and roll out, then 70% of your stamina allows you to strike for 4 times and roll out. Because stamina regens faster than you break poise block, so literally all that happens is you attack until you run out of stamina, wait a short moment, obtain 1 stamina, make final attack, and then wait another moment, have 1 stamina, and roll out. Because the real thing that effects number of attacks is attack patterns, not stamina.

If you have to *wait a moment* before rolling-out again, you were already hit. The choice is clear: you lose part of your damage dealing potential per second, or you lose part of your damage avoiding potential per second. (every *wait a moment* is an attack or a roll lost). Also, some sources indicate bleed also reduces target agility. If its true then its even more interesting.

By the way, is the hexer just a different kind of mage style-wise ? I mean, are its powers based more on buff or on direct long range attacks ? Im thinking about trying one, but if its just another mage-type I will pass.


Last edited by silva on Fri May 09, 2014 11:33 am; edited 3 times in total
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
If you have to *wait a moment* before rolling-out again, you were already hit.


Please please please please learn to read. Your stamina starts to regenerate before poise lock ends. You can roll your maximum distance with 1 stamina. You can make any attack with 1 stamina.

If you need to wait a moment, you are still 100% guaranteed to not be hit at all ever. Because you will roll out before the enemy becomes unstunned. If you need to wait a moment for stamina to attack to continue the poise lock, you will not be hit, because you will still get the stamina and attack and continue to poise lock them before they are unpoise locked.

The only thing that prevents people from attacking infinitely on a poise locked champ is that weapon attack patterns have a first hit with a gap long enough for people to roll out of. Once you hit someone, you are guaranteed to finish your combo if you poise lock them. You could have just enough stamina for a roll and your first attack, and you would still be guaranteed a 5 hit combo if that is what your weapon provides.
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silva
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Youre assuming you poise locked your opponent. This is far from being the only possible scenario. If the opponent is just dodging, or has high enough poise and shield stability, or you missed some attacks, your scenario above already changed.

And assuming bleed also reduces agility, you will be with even less mobility to escape. Also, I think reduced agility also affects the amount of invincible frames on your roll so this would also be affected.


Last edited by silva on Fri May 09, 2014 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
Youre assuming you poise locked your opponent. This is far from being the only possible scenario. If the opponent is just dodging, or has high enough poise and shield stability, or you missed some attacks, your scenario above already changed.


If your opponent dodges or blocks, you roll away immediately, because there is no other thing to do. And you won't be blocking with your dual wield bandit knives anyway. And yes, you always poise lock the enemy, because Poise is bugged in PvP and you always get poise locked unless you are mid roll when hit.

silva wrote:
And assuming bleed also reduces agility, you will be with even less mobility to escape. Also, I think reduced agility also affects the amount of invincible frames on your roll so this would also be affected.


No one actually knows about I frames, not that it matters, and the difference in roll distance between 80 agility and 110 agility is fucking trivial, and in either case several hundred times the length of bandit daggers.

Literally every benefit you can vaguely pretend exists is based on this theory that you will bleed them with bandit daggers and then instantly transform into a shield and sword character. I mean sure, you can have 50 str and dex and switch weapons, but at that point why not just use fists and kill them in the first place.
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silva
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Pause in the discussion to comment Kaelik didnt use insults in the last 3 posts and is behaving like a real gentleman.

See? Isnt the discussion much more interesting this way ? Big Grin
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
Pause in the discussion to comment Kaelik didnt use insults in the last 3 posts and is behaving like a real gentleman.

See? Isnt the discussion much more interesting this way ? Big Grin


If you don't consider repeated exhortations for you to learn how to read insults.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So I figured out a way around enemies not respawning.

Turns out the wraiths in the Undead Crypt will keep coming out of their gravestones as long as the bells ring.

So, yeah, with some soul-boosting, I get 990 souls a lightning bolt and can kill them through their shields.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus wrote:
So I figured out a way around enemies not respawning.

Turns out the wraiths in the Undead Crypt will keep coming out of their gravestones as long as the bells ring.

So, yeah, with some soul-boosting, I get 990 souls a lightning bolt and can kill them through their shields.


I didn't know that was a problem anyone was having. Between soap stoning bosses and the respawns being 12-15 anyway per area, I have never had problems reaching SL 150 well before even reaching Drangelic, and at that point you could just beat that game and start NG+.

Sure, you can farm infinitely for years in Undead Crypts, but why would you?
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm using this character as my "experiment with shit" character.

I'm, like, SL 179 and working on raising Int right now to give more sorceries a try. (I stuck with Strength and Faith until late game. Some dex to use a decent bow).

Edit: And the loot's nice, too.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!


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RufusCorvus
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Fucking finally.

I've been taking a break from my first character (Mastodon sword guy) because I ran up against a wall with Vendrick. He's not hard, but even with four Giant Souls and Sunlight Blade, he still tanks a lot of damage and can kill you in one shot no matter what armor you're wearing. Every time I'd gone up against him, I'd die pretty damn quick, mostly because he'd leap back and swing before I managed to get back into his blind spot. I finally put that fucker in the ground. Basically naked except for the Tseldora Cap and Jester's Gloves. Those, combined with the Silver Serpent Ring +1 equaled a 120,000+ soul payday.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Congratulations.

I could go fight the final boss, but I'm taking my time to go do some other stuff. And I got Titanfall yesterday, so I'm taking a break to let my Dark Souls batteries recharge.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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RufusCorvus
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus wrote:
Congratulations.

I could go fight the final boss, but I'm taking my time to go do some other stuff. And I got Titanfall yesterday, so I'm taking a break to let my Dark Souls batteries recharge.


I just beat the final boss a couple hours ago. It doesn't automatically roll into NG+ post-credits. You'll start at Majula's bonfire with the option to start NG+ when you feel like it.

But I totally understand recharging batteries. I took a break and fired up Crusader Kings 2 again.
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