[Tome] Craft Skill Rewrite

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Lokathor
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[Tome] Craft Skill Rewrite

Post by Lokathor »

Okay, so I've recently had a chance to get with some crafting stuff in a Tome game, but the problem is of course that there's not much rules to the crafting system, and there's a lot of muddled "well it should probably be like this" stuff owing to the Book of Gears being incomplete, and then a few different people making their own extensions each. Welp, time to do it again.

Okay so we're going to be redoing the Craft skill a bit, we're going to be touching on some crafting feats, we're going to be explaining a bit more rules-wise "how to make magic items" (it's a use of the Craft skill). We're assuming the Three Economy system is in place (some items require wish materials, based on market value), and also the part about ultimately only needing time to make a magic item is pretty much also going to be used:
The Book of Gears wrote:Creating magic items just requires time. There’s work that goes into enchanting a sword, forging a blade, smelting the steel, mining the ore, and all that just takes time. If a character is really dedicated, he really seriously can wander off into the hills collecting reddish stones and then heating them up until iron comes out and then hammering the molten metal into a blade and then enchanting it with his power and walking out of the hills with a magic sword. Various portions of this can be expedited by, for example, hiring other people to do a lot of that ? so a character can reasonably expect to throw down gold and buy himself a lot of that time back. But if you just have time; time will suffice. Exactly what magical goods are needed or helpful in magic item creation is highly variable campaign to campaign.

Questing for Reagents
It is a classic story for those fantasy settings that have on-camera magic item creation that characters must go quest for magical ingredients they need to make whatever the hell it is that they want to make
Skill Entry: Craft (Int)
A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of the Profession skill.

Like with Perform, Craft is a skill that has multiple styles. Each rank you put into this skill allows you to get one crafting style, though you don't have to select all of them right away. When you're using craft towards any of the styles that you have selected then you use your full ranks. If you're using craft in a style that you don't have then your ranks don't apply to your check, you are effectively untrained. A crafting style is usually based on the material used. In the case of items that are made of more than one material, usually the majority material will suffice. Metal armor has leather straps, but Craft(Metalworking) lets you make a complete suit of metal armor anyway. You can also just select an item category for items that come in a variety of materials (armor and weapons mostly).

Example: Clara has 3 ranks in Craft, and she's got Alchemy and Woodworking as her styles. When she goes to make a wooden chair or an acid flask she gets +3 from her ranks. When she attempt to make a horseshoe (metalworking) she doesn't get a bonus at all. However, given a little time she could easily learn the metalworking style. If she wanted to learn a fourth style after that then she'd need to put another rank into Craft.

Suggested styles include:
  • Alchemy
  • Armor
  • Bone
  • Cloth/Fabric
  • Clothing
  • Gemstone/Crystal
  • Jewelry
  • Leather
  • Metalwork
  • Stone/Clay
  • Traps
  • Weapons
  • Woodworking
Automatic Effects
If you are trained in one or more crafting styles then you can generally work in a town or city as a crafter without needing to make a check. You make a weekly wage according to your craft's average wages (See: Economicon - The Service Economy). If you're the only one in the area with your crafting skills then you might be able to make more money than average, but if you honestly are the only one in the area you probably live in the middle of nowhere and nobody has any money to pay you with anyway. It pretty much averages out.

Tools
Crafting almost inevitably involves tools of some kind. Even a pit trap calls for a shovel. A check assumes that you have the proper tools and possibly even facilities for your craft. If you have no tools at all then you take -5 to your check and the task probably takes at least twice as long as normal to complete, if not more (GM's discretion). If you at least have improvised tools then you take a -2 to your check, but your task probably doesn't take any longer than normal. If you've got high quality tools and facilities then you get a +2 to your check (but it still takes the normal time).

Check
Make a craft check whenever you want to make an item. The DC of the check is determined by the complexity of the object.

Some suggested DCs are as follows:
ItemDC
Bludgeoning weapon (club, shotput)8
Slashing / Piercing weapon (sword, spear)10
Weapon with moving parts (flail, bow)+3
Shield11
Great Shield13
Light armor15
Medium armor17
Heavy armor20
Simple object5
Typical object10
Complicated object15
Very complicated object20
Masterwork object*+5
Minor Magical Item Effect** (5k gp or less)21
Moderate Magical Item Effect** (5k to 15k)25
Major Magical Item Effect** (more than 15k gp)29
Intelligent item / Construct***15+CR
Scroll / Potion10+Spell Level

*An item must be crafted as Masterwork to begin with, it can't be converted to masterwork later. Masterwork items cost +300gp for weapons, +150gp for shields and armor, and x2 to x10 the normal price for other items (depending on the item). The price change of making an item Masterwork doesn't increase the amount of raw materials you need.

**You can normally only add a magical property to a Masterwork item. The crafting of the magical component is a separate process from the crafting of the base item. The style required when crafting the magical component is the same as the base item's. Most magical items require you to have specific spells or other conditions during creation, in addition to just making the craft check.

***For intelligent magical items, the intelligence is generally added after the magic item is created. For stand-alone constructs, you can build the construct's body and animate it with a single check. Either way, the required materials involved are generally going to be Wish Economy materials.

The time it takes to craft an item is also based on the item being crafted. Suggestions are as follows:
ItemTime Taken
Bludgeoning weapon (club, shotput)1 hour
Slashing / Piercing weapon (sword, spear)1 day
Weapon with moving parts (flail, bow)+1 day
Shield2 days
Great Shield2 days
Light armor3 days
Medium armor4 days
Heavy armor5 days
Simple object1 hour
Typical object1 day
Complicated object2 days
Very complicated object3 days
Masterwork Object+50% of base
Minor Magical Item Effect (5k gp or less)1 day
Moderate Magical Item Effect (5k to 15k)5 days
Major Magical Item Effect (more than 15k gp)10 days
Intelligent item / Construct(1/2*CR) days
Scroll / Potion1 day

The times given assume that you have the proper raw materials for your task. You need raw materials equal to one half the market price of the item, but how much that actually means in terms of pounds of astral silk or dragon teeth is pretty arbitrary. If the final market price of the item is over 15k gold (thus making it a Wish Economy item) then you must of course use Wish Economy quality raw materials to create it.

For each 1gp of materials that you're missing it generally takes 1 additional day of foraging before you can make your check. This is an obvious abstraction, and assumes that the crafter is traveling, mining, negotiating with distant merchants, whatever it takes. In most cases this abstraction is not useful at all, because a skill check that takes hundreds of days is essentially an entire adventure that should be played out on its own. And you could probably get faster progress by just killing someone, taking their stuff, and then buying the materials. However, for an NPC or montage you may care to have a number without assuming combat and such, particularly if they're ageless like a vampire or demon. So there you go. Now you have a number.

Generally you just make a single craft check no matter the target object, because too much dice rolling is dumb. If you fail your craft check by 4 or less then you make no progress and lose an amount of time equal to the time it takes to create the item (no more than a week though). If you fail your craft check by 5 or more then you make no progress and you also ruin 50% of your materials in the process.

Spell Interactions
If you've got the raw materials on hand, then Fabricate lets you make a Craft check to convert them into a finished product at a highly accelerated rate. You seriously have to still make the Craft check though, regardless of what you're making, or it'll just rip up your materials and stuff without making anything useful. The fabrication process takes 1 round per 1 cubic foot of material being affected, and you can affect up to 10 cubic feet per caster level with a single casting. Fabricate cannot add magical properties to items, it only converts raw materials into mundane finished goods.

If you've got an item made of wood you can cast the Ironwood spell on it to make it have the hardness, hit points, and not-catching-on-fire-ness of an iron item for the duration of the spell (one day per caster level). If you've just got raw wood, you can make it into an item as part of the casting of Ironwood by making a Craft check (basically just like with Fabricate).

You have to make a Craft check as part of the casting of Minor Creation, Major Creation, or True Creation. A failed check causes the spell to fail and nothing gets created.

Repairing An Item
You can repair a damaged or broken item with a Craft check.

Repairing a damaged item has a DC 5 less than that required to create the item, and no material cost. This restores all of the item's hit points, and usually takes only 1 minute per missing hit point. A failure deals 1 damage to the item.

Repairing a totally broken item (it has been reduced to 0 hit points) requires a check with the same DC as to create the item. It costs 25% of the item's base price in new materials, and the time taken is half as long as normal to create the item. A failure wastes your new materials, but you can try again. Repairing a broken magical item does not normally restore the magical portion of the item (though see the Master Artisan feat).

You can also remove any warping, such as by, Warp Wood. The DC is 10 higher than to create the item normally, but it only takes an hour (no material cost). A failed check deals 1 damage to the item.

If an item has been hit with a Disintegration effect then you can try to undo it, unlikely as it may seem. The DC is 50 higher than to create the item, but the attempt only takes an hour (no material cost). If you fail, the dust is ruined and you can't recover anything from it.

The spells Make Whole and Mending allow you to effect repairs to items without needing to make Craft check at all, as described in the spells.

Item Adjustments
Sometimes you need an item to be changed around to suit you. Usually this comes up when you find armor of the improper size, but other situations might come up as well (perhaps you grew wings or a tail suddenly). The DC is normal for the item, but the time taken is half normal, and you don't need to pay for any new materials if the item is going to be the same size as before. If the resulting item is going to be larger than before, you need to pay for the difference in market value (see the "Armor For Unusual Creatures" table in the Equipment section). Even though "nonstandard" armor normally has a higher market value, you don't need to pay for additional materials (the higher value has to do with rarity rather than materials used).

If the resulting item is smaller than before, you have a chance to salvage some of the now-unused materials (see below).

Item Salvage
If you've got parts and scraps of some sort, you can make a DC 15 check to salvage the good bits and recover some usable materials out of it. You can't Take 10 on a salvage check, and a failed check ruins the stuff that you're trying to salvage.

The amount of time taken is totally arbitrary, depending on what you're trying to salvage and how much, anywhere from minutes to hours to days. If it's a broken apart item, you can usually recover up to half of the item's market value, though often less based on the condition of the scrap (again, totally arbitrary GM's call).

Materials ruined from a failed craft check can't themselves be salvaged (that's the whole point after all).

Synergy
Fuck off, synergy bonuses are dumb.

---

Item Creation Feats

Scribe Scroll [Item Creation]
Benefit: When crafting scrolls, a failed Craft check doesn't ruin any of your materials.

Brew Potion [Item Creation]
Benefit: When crafting potions, a failed Craft check doesn't ruin any of your materials. You can always craft a Cure spell into a potion, even if you don't know the spell in question, as long as the spell level of the Cure spell is no more than half your own level.

Craft Magical Arms and Armor [Item Creation]
Benefit: When crafting weapons, armor, shields, or the magical portions of any such items, a failed craft check does not ruin any of your materials. Further, you count as though you could cast any spell on the Cleric or Wizard spell list with a spell level of no more than half of your own level for fulfilling spell requirements when creating magical weapons, armor, and shields.

Craft Wondrous Item [Item Creation]
Benefit: A wondrous item is any permanent magical item that isn't a weapon, armor, or shield. When crafting the magical portion of a wondrous item, such as a magic belt or cloak, a failed craft check does not ruin any of your materials. Further, you count as though you could cast any spell on the Cleric or Wizard spell list with a spell level of no more than half of your own level for fulfilling spell requirements when creating wondrous items.

Master Artisan [Skill] [Leadership]
You're so good at putting things together that it leaves people speechless. They follow you around in the hopes that they can see you work more wonders.
[*]Benefit: You get a +3 feat bonus to Craft checks
[*]4 ranks in Craft: You attract followers, they probably work in your shop or help you with Aid Another checks or something. Your Leadership score is equal to your ranks in craft plus your Intelligence Bonus.
[*]9 ranks in Craft: You attract an artisan's apprentice. They're exactly like a cohort, just with a special title.
[*]14 ranks in Craft: You can cast Fabricate three times per day.
[*]19 ranks in Craft: When you repair a broken magical item, you also can also restore the magical portion of the broken item. This takes you no additional time and no additional materials. You cannot restore artifacts with this ability.

---

Magical Item Properties

There's totally lots of ways to do your magic item system. You can mix this ruleset in with whatever your magic item system for minor/moderate/major items is. If your system uses price ranges for each category other than the ones listed then just use your system's instead. The DCs and time taken can remain the same either way.
Last edited by Lokathor on Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Aryxbez »

For what its worth, it seems rather hidden, but in Red Rob's thread, he has Crafting Rules I rather liked.

Though it seems like you should be able to make more than one Potion in a day or have you.
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Post by erik »

A minor thing.

I've only skimmed, but I didn't see anything about ammunition for ranged weapons. I dunno if it was intended that a rapier takes as long to create as an arrow.
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Post by Lokathor »

Aryxbez: Hmm, all the times are "suggested", but yeah maybe I should adjust them down a bit for potions. The intent is very much that the group will look at the table and then decide, "well that's wrong for this specific item, we'll just say it's X amount of time instead."

Red Rob's rules are, uh, well the times taken on his chart are just way too huge for my tastes. If I tell a player that he has to spend 5 days to make a heavy armor then that's pretty alright, but if I tell him he'll have to make a check (or, more likely, Take 10) and then potentially take as many as six weeks total to complete a set of heavy armor then he'll just tell me to fuck off because he could get the other half of the money to buy it and then probably also gain a level in that time period instead. Even 1 week is almost more time than I ever want to imagine a character working on a thing if they know what they're doing.

And I don't think that the Masterpiece system is helpful. I don't care about restricting the creation of magic items to only X many times in a character's life, particularly when the game should be playable for quite some time without ever going up a level if that's what your group wants to do. And you can buy more and more magic items without going up a level, so you should totally be able to make more and more magic items without going up a level as well. I specifically don't want to require crafting feats to be taken at all. If I were to actually write out all the Magic Item Abilities that you can get I probably wouldn't even actually stick required spells on most of them. I don't even require that you be in a quiet and comfortable place when you're crafting. You can totally Tony Stark up a suit of Heavy Fortification Mechanus Gear in a cave, if you've got the craft bonus for it and enough spare parts.

I noticed just now after re-reading it a bit that he's also splitting each craft skill into several sub-skills, like knowledge, instead of doing it like 3.0 Perform where you get styles. And that's just crazy because an individualized craft skill is less useful than an individual Knowledge skill basically. Craft is always non-combat, and so just buying it instead is essentially the same action you're just trading skill ranks and time for money. That's a bad trade, even if skill points are falling for free from the sky (like they are in my games, but aren't in "normal" Tome games). Knowledge actually has a combat application as well as a non-combat application. Sometimes you want that monster info and you want it before you pick your action, so you can't go hire a sage for that. And even though you can't always just pay to not need it, you still don't usually care too much when you don't have the right Knowledge.

I suppose in general he's going for too much detail and restriction compared to what I'd be looking for.

erik: Ammunition, yeah I forgot about that. My initial thought is to just say "bundles of 50 are like a single weapon, so you can make 50 in a day."
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Could you explain why you're moving away from crafting according to professions?
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Post by Lokathor »

I don't entirely know what that means. Do you mean moving away from crafting being split up among several types and having to put ranks into each type of craft separately?

If that's what you mean, then I'm moving away from it because it makes the skill very low value compared to other skills that a player could buy with their skill points. It is my intent to, as the Tomes did with classes and feats, bring Craft (and potentially others) up to the level of the "good" skills. To even things out while not trying to adjust downward the skills that are already solid choices and make the game work pretty well. This isn't entirely possible, because Spot and Listen will always be high priority skills in any game where getting stabbed in the face so hard that you die before you can act is a thing, but I can still try to increase the diversity among other skills some.

The only skill in the game that I'd care to see changed in a way that reduced its power level would be, of course, Use Magic Device.
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Post by Surgo »

I'm not sure that putting DCs for magic items is appropriate given how cheesable those numbers are. I'm actually okay with cheesable craft DCs since it makes the game fun, but it just means the magic items ought to be divorced from the skill.
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Post by Lokathor »

Could you be more specific with what would actually be wrong? If a level 1 player takes the magic item creation feat for it (so he doesn't ruin his materials and he can just keep rolling over and over until he gets at Natural 20), and he also gets a +9 to his craft and so can potentially make a major magic item in terms of the DC, they still need the materials to build the item, which they don't have. And they'd still need any required spells, which the feat gives to you in a scaling way so they wouldn't have any high level spells either.

Previously, you had to have a feat, and then you could automatically do it. Now, in place of having to have a feat, you need to make a skill check with a somewhat higher DC (though totally reasonable to Take 10 on by mid levels). That means more players will actually probably try to craft their own magical items because they might want to throw some skill points around and pick up a magic +Craft item, compared to the number of folks that would want to set a feat on fire. To me, that's a cool thing.

If you'd like the DCs to be higher, how much higher? My intent was that you would rarely see people taking the feats for it, you'd just see folks getting a high craft bonus and then Taking 10 a lot. The DC 21 for a Minor Item I probably wouldn't budge on, but I could see an argument for higher DCs on the others. To me, the fact that magic items scale to your level and the fact that you still need all this money to make things with are the limiting factors. Even if you've got a +50 at level 8 you're still not going to be making a Major magical item because you don't have any wish economy materials.
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Post by Surgo »

I suppose you're correct that it's the materials that matter and not the DC, which should be fine then.
My intent was that you would rarely see people taking the feats for it
The feats should probably be better then, yeah?
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Post by Lokathor »

Well, to an extent I was assuming some sort of "teamwork" rules when I said that, such that if you've got your crafting skill and there's a wizard or cleric in your group then he can provide the spells for you even if you're a rogue. In that sort of setup you don't need to grab the feats so much if you've got a good crafting bonus. If you're a lone NPC, or if your party completely lacks spellcasters (which happens, though perhaps not too often), then you'd take a feat because you've got no way to provide spells for your items. I actually haven't written down that part yet though. I was planning to get around to writing an actual complete magic items section eventually, but I got distracted writing other things into my PDF so I haven't done it yet.

Fighters still get Craft Arms and Armor as a bonus feat. Wizards also get bonus feat slots that can be spent on Item Creation feats. They're good enough feats at the moment to pick up in that context, they're just not as good as a general Combat feat. I'm not even sure that they should be as strong as a Combat feat. I think it's probably okay for some feats to just be less popular or more NPCish and players mostly get them if they happen to have them as bonus feats.

Master Artisan I can imagine many people getting though. Everyone ever gets Craft on their class skill list, and having a Leadership is always nice, so some folks might decide to have Leadership via crafting (in games that use Leadership).

I guess I'm asking you too: what would you do to make them better without making them required?

Now that I'm thinking about it, I forgot Craft Construct actually. Here's what it might look like

Craft Construct [Skill] [Leadership]
You can make an army of automatons that faithfully follow your orders without stopping to think or other troublesome things like that.
Benefit: When creating a Construct, a failed Craft check doesn't ruin any of your materials. You can build and animate constructs allowed to you by this feat using Gold Economy materials instead of Wish Economy materials, and the price is the CR squared times 75 gp (or 50gp for CR 1/2 followers). Making such a construct takes an hour of work. Instead of paying actual money, you can spend 1 extra day for each 100gp of materials that you would have had to pay for and just use whatever local materials are sitting around in the open. Unintelligent constructs from this feat crumble after a number of days equal to your level if you die or lose control of them for any other reason.
[*]4 ranks in Craft: You can make a large number of Golems out of different sorts of materials. They count as your followers using the normal rules, so their CRs are also normal. Your leadership score is equal to your ranks in Craft plus your Intelligence Bonus. Very low CR golems are kinda like normal golems but they're made out exceptionally terrible materials, like paper, bread, or straw.
[*]9 ranks in Craft: You gain an especially powerful construct that's your Cohort. Once per month you can give a construct that you animate the (Positronic) subtype for free. This gives it an Intelligence score with all the normal benefits (skill points, being able to think, able to have class levels, etc), but makes it vulnerable to Mind-Affecting things in the process.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Lokathor wrote:I don't entirely know what that means. Do you mean moving away from crafting being split up among several types and having to put ranks into each type of craft separately?

If that's what you mean, then I'm moving away from it because it makes the skill very low value compared to other skills that a player could buy with their skill points. It is my intent to, as the Tomes did with classes and feats, bring Craft (and potentially others) up to the level of the "good" skills. To even things out while not trying to adjust downward the skills that are already solid choices and make the game work pretty well. This isn't entirely possible, because Spot and Listen will always be high priority skills in any game where getting stabbed in the face so hard that you die before you can act is a thing, but I can still try to increase the diversity among other skills some.

The only skill in the game that I'd care to see changed in a way that reduced its power level would be, of course, Use Magic Device.
The Book of Gears default is:
[*]Craft is a skill. Craft (something) is not. It does virtually nothing.
[*]Profession (something) is a special skill. It comes in two ranks: 'proficient' and 'master'.
[*]If you have ranks in a profession, you can craft anything relevant to that profession.
[*]Professions are somewhat nebulous, and should be somewhere between 'Profession (artisan)' and 'Profession (basketweaver)' (not inclusive). Closer to 'Profession (artisan)' is better. A blacksmith with a high Craft skill should be able to make full plate armor. A pianist with a high Craft skill should be able to build a church organ.
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Post by Lokathor »

Well the Book of Gears thread doesn't seem to have any of that, and the Awesome Tome and Revised Awesome Tome also don't seem to, so I've never heard of any of those rules.

As to if I like them or not... I don't think that I do as much. You're spending a ton of ranks on Craft, getting nothing directly for it, and then you're spending ranks to unlock Professions which each let you craft some stuff. So you're basically spending twice as many ranks to make things with. And also, the side effect is that anyone who can make anything can also use anything, which seems silly. If you can forge a blade you can't always swing a blade, and if you can carve a flute you can't always play a flute.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Lokathor wrote:Well the Book of Gears thread doesn't seem to have any of that, and the Awesome Tome and Revised Awesome Tome also don't seem to, so I've never heard of any of those rules.

As to if I like them or not... I don't think that I do as much. You're spending a ton of ranks on Craft, getting nothing directly for it, and then you're spending ranks to unlock Professions which each let you craft some stuff. So you're basically spending twice as many ranks to make things with. And also, the side effect is that anyone who can make anything can also use anything, which seems silly. If you can forge a blade you can't always swing a blade, and if you can carve a flute you can't always play a flute.
The first criticism is valid. The second, not so much. Profession (flautist) would let you know a lot about flutes, flute music, and how to get a job in an orchestra, but you'd still need ranks in Craft and Perform to make them and to play well. Similarly, having Profession (weaponsmith) and ranks in Craft won't help you swing a blade: you need BAB for that.
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Post by Lokathor »

I suppose I'd rather just stick to the rough division that the PHB vaguely tries to go by:

[*]Craft makes materials into a product
[*]Knowledge lets you recall (or research) facts and lore
[*]Profession is any "job" that isn't directly one of those things (Sailor, Farmer, whatever), even where it might overlap with one of those things.

And I suppose I don't mind some overlap in this area. If a person wants to have Profession(Smith) and use it as virtual ranks in Craft for making weapons, or Profession(Hunter) and then use it as virtual ranks in Knowledge and Survival for tracking animals and knowing about wildlife, then that's great.

It mostly just seems silly to me that, if you're getting two skill points per level and you spend 1 on Listen and 1 on Craft then you can listen to all sorts of sounds but you can't actually craft anything in particular because you're required to pay an extra skill point tax in the form of Profession points. After the first bit you're actually doing somewhat better (in terms of skill points spent to capability gained) than having to put ranks into each craft separately like a knowledge, but if you want to be able to craft all kinds of things then you're doing far far worse than just putting points into a single skill with styles like perform.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

If you want to have profession skills, with level-based ranks, that count as virtual other skills, you should write that up. Because otherwise I'm not sure how to create an expert smith in your system.
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Lokathor
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Post by Lokathor »

You'd just have a lot of ranks in Craft, and pick all the styles that deal with metal and leather and anything else you want to smith. That's all you'd need to do. You don't need Profession at all.

Like maybe a "smith" might have Diplomacy or something if they're negotiating prices because they have their own forge and they're selling their own goods, but if they're just a smith in some king's castle, all they need is ranks in Craft. Not even that many, probably 3 ranks would be enough to get the desired styles (Metalworking, Weaponsmithing, Armorsmithing), and any other ranks would just make their bonus that much higher (with the option, but not requirement, to have other styles as well). And that's cool, because a majority of the world's populace is level 1 commoners and experts, so that all lines up just fine.

If you have an "expert smith" then they'd have a high enough bonus to always be able to Take 10 and not waste any of your money. Otherwise they're just some guy with a +5 in Craft and they can make Light Armor and Shields easily, but it'll be troublesome for them to put together Medium and Heavy armor.
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