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Longes
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Post by Longes »

So, I've been preparing to run a short Mage: the Ascension adventure, and wanted to know how much mages would there be in a city. According to oWoD, there is 1 vampire for every 100k humans. Of course, this leads to ridiculously small numbers. Moscow would have 200 vampires. L.A. would have 40 vampires. Boston has 12 vampires. And mages are supposed to be even rarer.
Is this an instance of the "writers can't do math"?
Are there other examples in games where supernaturals are ridiculously rare by raw?

Things get especially silly when you remember that there are also subgroups of supernaturals. For example, one of my players wants to be an "Albiero" - a a secretive group working as the embassadors of Euthanatos. And even assuming that the traditions are spread even, there are 14 Euthanatos. Some of which are members of the secret embassador society...
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Post by Dogbert »

While no M:tAs book I remember mentions actual demographic distribution, the de-facto assumptions by how they stat their cities would assume around 20 mages per city (PCs and baddies included).

P.S: Why is the thread named "anime club"?
Last edited by Dogbert on Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Longes »

Dogbert wrote:While no M:tAs book I remember mentions actual demographic distribution, the de-facto assumptions by how they stat their cities would assume around 20 mages per city (PCs and baddies included).

P.S: Why is the thread named "anime club"?
In honor of this forum's tradition of calling people "president of the anime club"
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Post by fectin »

I think that's only Koumei...
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Post by Red_Rob »

It's a reference to how in nWOD the supernatural societies have so few members and so little power that advancing in them is really no better than joining the local anime club.

I think it's from a Frank review of a nWOD book? Sounds like the kind of dismissive but catchy and on the nose description Frank would come up with anyway.
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Re: Anime Club

Post by norms29 »

Longes wrote:According to oWoD, there is 1 vampire for every 100k humans. Of course, this leads to ridiculously small numbers. Moscow would have 200 vampires. L.A. would have 40 vampires. Boston has 12 vampires. And mages are supposed to be even rarer.
Is this an instance of the "writers can't do math"?
yeah, honestly I'm sometimes surprised these guys don't poison themselves by adding too much salt to things when they cook.

as an aside, I was going to point out that vamps are supposed to be concentrated in urban areas, so instead of just 38 vampires for the human population of Los Angles, LA should have 164 vampires, one for every 100k people in LA's greater metropolitian area. but ultimatly it's still not even the right order of magnitude most of the time.

while I was looking up population numbers for that I started wondering where the hell you got your numbers from? I'm just looking at wikipedia, so I can't really assume you're the one whose wrong but Moscow looks way too high
After all, when you climb Mt. Kon Foo Sing to fight Grand Master Hung Lo and prove that your "Squirrel Chases the Jam-Coated Tiger" style is better than his "Dead Cockroach Flails Legs" style, you unleash a bunch of your SCtJCT moves, not wait for him to launch DCFL attacks and then just sit there and parry all day. And you certainly don't, having been kicked about, then say "Well you served me shitty tea before our battle" and go home.
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Re: Anime Club

Post by Longes »

norms29 wrote:
Longes wrote:According to oWoD, there is 1 vampire for every 100k humans. Of course, this leads to ridiculously small numbers. Moscow would have 200 vampires. L.A. would have 40 vampires. Boston has 12 vampires. And mages are supposed to be even rarer.
Is this an instance of the "writers can't do math"?
yeah, honestly I'm sometimes surprised these guys don't poison themselves by adding too much salt to things when they cook.

as an aside, I was going to point out that vamps are supposed to be concentrated in urban areas, so instead of just 38 vampires for the human population of Los Angles, LA should have 164 vampires, one for every 100k people in LA's greater metropolitian area. but ultimatly it's still not even the right order of magnitude most of the time.

while I was looking up population numbers for that I started wondering where the hell you got your numbers from? I'm just looking at wikipedia, so I can't really assume you're the one whose wrong but Moscow looks way too high
Twice as high. I calculated under the assumption 1:50k, and forgot to recalculate later.
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Post by Username17 »

President of the Anime Club is just one of those memes that grew up. I think it dates back to me describing political aspirations in nWoD as running for "homecoming king in junior high." Since then, it's morphed to being president of the anime club, and it got thrown around in descriptions from Lunars to Tir Tairngire.

Anyway, White Wolf demographics are bad. Like, really bad. First of all, you absolutely have to just give up on the idea that supernatural population centers are proportional to human population centers. That idea just has to fucking die, because otherwise you can't have cabins in the woods with families of cannibals living in them - and that shit is super important to the World of Darkness. So you do up demographics on a national level, and then about half of the supernaturals live in and around major cities and the other half live in crazy wilderness areas.

Now that being said, the vampire populations posited in Masquerade are way too fucking small for any of this world of darkness shit to be happening. At one per hundred thousand, that's like a thousand and a half for all of Russia. And remember that half of those guys are Gangrels running with wolf packs in Siberia and baby eating mountain witches and shit. Those numbers are off by an order of magnitude.

Of course, even at a more reasonable fourteen thousand Russian vampires, that's nowhere near enough to maintain all the fucking sects and clans and shit. And when you divide up the vampires such that there are some living in Russia's twentieth largest city (which is apparently Ижевск, by the way), you realize that even seven thousand city-dwelling vampires doesn't fucking go very far.

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The Republic of Udmurt totally needs to have Vampires.

So basically, there are nowhere near enough supernaturals and the supernaturals that exist are split up between an implausibly large number of clans and factions. Being the chantry elder of the Tremere Antitribu of Krasnodar just isn't a fucking thing that can happen.

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Post by Longes »

I've decided to just embrace the insanity, and roll with "there are only 200 mages" thing. This required some changes to the Technocracy. In my version, they would fight the Traditions for the world view. but:
a) Technocracy is winning. Toilets and antibiotics > flying carpets and dickwolfs. Technocracy is a hundred mages working together, while Traditions is a loosely knit group with nine subgroups each of which doesn't agree with the other.
b) There are only 200 mages, and vampires and werewolfs and demons are more populous and pose greater danger.

So the Technocracy are a supernatural police, hunting murderhobos and protecting the masquerade. Everyone knows everyone, because there are so few mages, and you can even work for the Technocracy as a Tradition mage.
Last edited by Longes on Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TheFlatline »

I always threw the demographics out the window, especially with Vampire.

For a metropolitan area like LA county (LA is such a sprawling place that the entire county is basically one big city, broken up by governments more than by geography now) 500, maybe 750 vampires seemed like a good number. That's about the number of my graduating class in High School. I sort of knew all the other seniors by sight and could recognize faces. I was acquainted with maybe a quarter of them, and the rest I didn't know shit from shinola. If I flipped through my old annual, I'm sure there's people in there I never even saw.

Which seems about the demographics you want of vampires in a big city. After a few decades you know most of them by sight, and maybe a little about them, but there's still a lot of potential to interact without saying "You're either fucking the prince or your party over".

Mages? That's a tougher bit. But similar numbers are fine if you want high population games. If you want low population games... well... don't have that many mages in them.
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Post by Longes »

Clanbook: Tremere has plesantly surprised me. Kinda. In a feat of awareness they admit, that there are nowhere near enough Tremere to actually fill all the positions Tremere hierarchy has ([Tremere] -> 7 Councilors -> 49 Pontifices -> 343 Lords -> 2401 Regents -> 16807 Apprentices). They even admit that most cities don't have enough Tremere to have a Regent and 7 Apprentices.

Of course, they fail to reconcile this fact with all the secret societies Tremere have, and all the supposed in-fighting Tremere have. Because seriously, when the prize for being a Regent is the control over your other 3 lab workers, why would you ever fight?
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Longes wrote:Because seriously, when the prize for being a Regent is the control over your other 3 lab workers, why would you ever fight?
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Post by Laertes »

When I ran my African Mage campaign, I used the following demographics:

1 True Mage per million people
1 hedge mage (that is, a static mage) per ten thousand people
1 consor (that is, unawakened but doesn't cause Paradox) per ten thousand people
1 other supernatural (that is, vampire or werecreature) per ten thousand people
1 person who "has something odd about them" per hundred people

Those supernaturals are not necessarily clustered at population centres, but over nations their numbers work out to the right ratios. There are seven million Zulu so there will be seven million Zulu static magi (traditional sangoma or christian miracle-workers mostly) but they'll tend to cluster in the traditional villages in the countryside rather than the Johannesburg and Durban slums.

Of the True Magi:
3/8ths were Traditions or allied groups
1/8th were Marauders
1/8th were Technocracy or allied groups
1/8th were Nephandi or allied groups
1/8th were members of unaligned groups
1/8th were not members of any group

3/15ths were Arete 1
5/15ths were Arete 2
4/15ths were Arete 3
2/15ths were Arete 4
1/15th were Arete 5 or above

I did it this way because I wanted True Magi to be rare and thus the fate of the world to be out of their hands - when there are a million people and only one magus, you simply cannot deal with all the issues of those people. There is no amount of magic you can do to alter that. As a result, it prevents the game from becoming a matter of Magical Risk, since you never "own" a territory in any meaningful way. You might defend its nodes, but you're not going to even notice if you're a Correspondence/Matter mage and another person comes along to do some Life/Mind stuff. Your worlds simply won't intersect, even if those are "your" million people.

I also played up the fact that most of the time all the magi (except the Marauders and Nephandi) are broadly on the same side where short term stuff is concerned. Sure, the Technocracy and Traditions might have different worldviews, but you know what they both hate? Malaria. Fighting malaria is a vastly more important cause than any squabble over paradigm, both sides recognise it, and that means that the "other side" turn from The Other into "those guys over there." It makes diplomacy far more interesting and war vastly more heartbreaking.

Having True Magi so rare also means that you can, with a little work, come up with one-line character sketches for all the magi in your region. This is an immensely useful thing when it comes to running the game because it lets you portray a living world rather than just a place where people stand around with quest exclamation marks over their heads.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

This question may be way too broad and so I'll accept a truncated answer, but what is the typical biological and sociological profile of your major WoD supernaturals? Moreover, how does it intersect with mundane human society and with other supernatural?

I mean, vampire blood rave parties are badass, but what's the demographic feasibility of such things? And if it isn't feasible, how much of the setting do you have to fudge to enable our favorite tropes?
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Post by erik »

Blood rave parties seem like something that masquerades would stomp on because they aren't sustainable. Do one and maybe it gets written up as a rave with poisoned/tainted drugs gone wrong that shows up in local news and in the national as a blurb at the very least. If it keeps happening then tiger tails are successfully pulled.

I'd say it is a trope of when vampires say fuck it to the masquerade (in Blade, the new blood are giving the finger to the older vamps). Could still use it in stories/games, but it would be something that everyone wants stopped.

But having something like Wolfram & Hart where there's office buildings with plenty of supernaturals coming and going totally needs to be a thing.
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Post by Longes »

erik wrote:Blood rave parties seem like something that masquerades would stomp on because they aren't sustainable. Do one and maybe it gets written up as a rave with poisoned/tainted drugs gone wrong that shows up in local news and in the national as a blurb at the very least. If it keeps happening then tiger tails are successfully pulled.

I'd say it is a trope of when vampires say fuck it to the masquerade (in Blade, the new blood are giving the finger to the older vamps). Could still use it in stories/games, but it would be something that everyone wants stopped.

But having something like Wolfram & Hart where there's office buildings with plenty of supernaturals coming and going totally needs to be a thing.
Blood Rave party is one of the Sabbat's common rituals
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Post by FatR »

Regarding oWoD demography, unless it was actually relevant for the game, like if you played Werewolf and needed to calculate how many dudes your high-powered party could muster from across the country in emergencies, I just didn't bother. Official numbers were too low to support the official setting; the numbers needed to support the setting were too high to maintain the Masquerade; and then there were various unpleasant (and often even canonically used) ways to make the numbers of supernaturals explode to where the canonical reason for Masquerade is obvious bullshit; and the mental effort needed to reach some sensible compromise between all that was too great; and by the time of getting deep enough into the setting I started running games in the trenchcoats-and-katanas style anyway so who cared. Supernaturals just had numbers they needed to justify whatever story was happening.
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Post by erik »

Longes wrote:
erik wrote:Blood rave parties seem like something that masquerades would stomp on because they aren't sustainable. Do one and maybe it gets written up as a rave with poisoned/tainted drugs gone wrong that shows up in local news and in the national as a blurb at the very least. If it keeps happening then tiger tails are successfully pulled.

I'd say it is a trope of when vampires say fuck it to the masquerade (in Blade, the new blood are giving the finger to the older vamps). Could still use it in stories/games, but it would be something that everyone wants stopped.

But having something like Wolfram & Hart where there's office buildings with plenty of supernaturals coming and going totally needs to be a thing.
Blood Rave party is one of the Sabbat's common rituals
And they reject the Masquerade right?

There is no good way to have a masquerade and a significant faction that rejects it since it is so easy to ruin/difficult to maintain. So something has to give. If Sabbat are doing a blood rave in a city then heavy shit ought be called down to purge said Sabbat. Otherwise that is going to be relegated to 3rd world areas where it is more easily covered up.
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Post by Longes »

erik wrote:
Longes wrote:
erik wrote:Blood rave parties seem like something that masquerades would stomp on because they aren't sustainable. Do one and maybe it gets written up as a rave with poisoned/tainted drugs gone wrong that shows up in local news and in the national as a blurb at the very least. If it keeps happening then tiger tails are successfully pulled.

I'd say it is a trope of when vampires say fuck it to the masquerade (in Blade, the new blood are giving the finger to the older vamps). Could still use it in stories/games, but it would be something that everyone wants stopped.

But having something like Wolfram & Hart where there's office buildings with plenty of supernaturals coming and going totally needs to be a thing.
Blood Rave party is one of the Sabbat's common rituals
And they reject the Masquerade right?

There is no good way to have a masquerade and a significant faction that rejects it since it is so easy to ruin/difficult to maintain. So something has to give. If Sabbat are doing a blood rave in a city then heavy shit ought be called down to purge said Sabbat. Otherwise that is going to be relegated to 3rd world areas where it is more easily covered up.
Admittedly, V20 says that blood raves are rare, because it's hard to kidnap a lot of people and clean up later.
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Post by Username17 »

FatR wrote:Regarding oWoD demography, unless it was actually relevant for the game, like if you played Werewolf and needed to calculate how many dudes your high-powered party could muster from across the country in emergencies, I just didn't bother. Official numbers were too low to support the official setting; the numbers needed to support the setting were too high to maintain the Masquerade; and then there were various unpleasant (and often even canonically used) ways to make the numbers of supernaturals explode to where the canonical reason for Masquerade is obvious bullshit; and the mental effort needed to reach some sensible compromise between all that was too great; and by the time of getting deep enough into the setting I started running games in the trenchcoats-and-katanas style anyway so who cared. Supernaturals just had numbers they needed to justify whatever story was happening.
Pretty much this. And it's also fractally true. There are nowhere near enough vampires to maintain all the clans, and anywhere near enough vampires to support all the clans would shit the masquerade up immediately. And the number of vampires needed to maintain all the secret factions inside the clans would be even higher by an order of magnitude. And that's just the vampires. Mages and Werewolves have it even worse (because Mages are a larger strain on public awareness and there are even more flavors of shapechangers and they all have extended families). Changelings and Mummies and shit don't have it as bad individually (being smaller settings), but there are a lot of those minor factions and the setting was overburdened before they came on the scene.

Any story that requires a discussion of how many magical beings there are strains the credibility of the setting to the breaking point.

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Post by Ancient History »

Yeah, WoD is a Doppelganger Pileup setting.
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Post by hyzmarca »

I like the idea that supernaturals in general and vampires especially are very nomadic. Because weird shit invites questions and a guy who doesn't age for several decades is fairly obvious. Thus the political structures are operate as international support networks rather than maintaining traditional control over territory. And Clan ties are important because you can usually expect a clan member to have your back in unfamiliar territory.

This still gives room for political machinations, but they're different because of the nature of the power structure and the distances involved.
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Post by kzt »

FrankTrollman wrote: Any story that requires a discussion of how many magical beings there are strains the credibility of the setting to the breaking point.
How many people are there per mage in SR? :biggrin:
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Post by Prak »

FrankTrollman wrote:There are nowhere near enough vampires to maintain all the clans, and anywhere near enough vampires to support all the clans would shit the masquerade up immediately.
Is this simply due to the numbers the books purport, or could just the idea of clans as lineages--not large organizations composed of vampires of a given descriptor, but just like twelve distinct descriptors of vampires that feel some vague kinship to others of their same descriptor, and so act sort of like networks of gangs, so a Brujah from California can meet up with Brujah in Beijing when he goes there, and, as hyzmarca suggests, expect that they'll help him out as a fellow Brujah (though not necessarily give him all their best shit, or show him the best blood drinking spots). How many vampires would there need to be to sustain various plots and schemes that cross these lineages? How many would there need to be to maintain WoD's canonical secret factions, or are they so intrinsically tied to how clans work in WoD that you couldn't do this lineage thing and maintain those secret factions?
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Post by Laertes »

Prak_Anima wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:There are nowhere near enough vampires to maintain all the clans, and anywhere near enough vampires to support all the clans would shit the masquerade up immediately.
Is this simply due to the numbers the books purport, or could just the idea of clans as lineages--not large organizations composed of vampires of a given descriptor, but just like twelve distinct descriptors of vampires that feel some vague kinship to others of their same descriptor, and so act sort of like networks of gangs, so a Brujah from California can meet up with Brujah in Beijing when he goes there, and, as hyzmarca suggests, expect that they'll help him out as a fellow Brujah (though not necessarily give him all their best shit, or show him the best blood drinking spots). How many vampires would there need to be to sustain various plots and schemes that cross these lineages? How many would there need to be to maintain WoD's canonical secret factions, or are they so intrinsically tied to how clans work in WoD that you couldn't do this lineage thing and maintain those secret factions?
In my experience, the concept of "a Brujah in Beijing will help out a Brujah in California" is nonsensical. Vampire plays better when the clans are little more than "here's the powers you start with, now go play" and a stereotype that probably doesn't apply to you. There's no kinship and no organisation. Vampires are top predators and top predators tend to be solitary creatures. A Brujah from California coming to Beijing will be killed by the locals for daring to hunt in their city, regardless of which clan the locals are part of, unless they somehow square it with the local Prince. This is why the Tremere have got it going on: they actually have any ability to cooperate and coordinate.

What there might be is a local thing, where vampires descended from a particular local dignitary are all under his jackboot and thus cooperate to the extent that he makes them cooperate; but that's a coercive situation and needs to be played as one. This means you'll get local clan structures emerge; for example all the Ventrue in London will be descended from Mithras, and because he's still around until the mid 20th century, that means they'll all do as he says. But they won't be friendly to foreign Ventrue beyond the lip service required of them. It certainly isn't as though they'll allow them to immigrate and just set up shop locally.

The Camarilla is an armed truce, whereby the local powers that be are given rights which basically allow them to do almost whatsoever they please as long as they have the de facto ability to enforce it. It's a Hobbesian society in which immortals who hate and fear one another nonetheless slowly over time become the closest thing to friends that they have. If they can't kill the other ones, and they can't leave because any new city may well refuse to have them and kill them offhand, then they may as well meet up every month for a game of chess. If something changes, of course, they totally will swoop for the kill.

Now, all this changes if you're playing LARP like I used to do. LARPs require a vastly different demographics in which there is an enormous semi-nomadic population of all approximately the same power level, none of whom have coercive powers over the others. This doesn't square itself at all well with Vampire's written fluff but nobody cares, it's White Wolf LARPing and so most people have no expectation of it beyond getting to dress up and interact in character.

Edit: Werewolf might be closer to what you're looking for, because they are pretty close knit, and also travel frequently to attend one another's moots. When I ran Werewolf I assumed a total global population of between twenty and thirty thousand Garou, plus some extra (nobody knew how many) for orphaned Garou, ronin and BSDs. This was enough to make each tribe a few thousand in size, which means that the tribal societies described work very well as cliques within them. They're not fixed organisations so much as groups of people with similar views who hang out together, and like all such groups they tend to develop leaders in a cult-of-personality way.

Once you start networking moon bridges, Garou are absurdly mobile. There's no reason to suppose that networks of Galliards don't keep everyone in each tribe up to date with everything significant that's happening everywhere in the world. Everyone knows everyone at least by reputation, which makes the Renown system in the game come into play in a big way.
Last edited by Laertes on Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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