[Tome] BAB to Initiative, cool idea or not?

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:16 pm

So after rewatching like a bajillion episodes of Rurouni Kenshin I'm really wanting to have BAB be added into initiative.

1d20+DexMod+BAB

Going first against equal level foes is still a total toss up, but against lower level foes from before you become increasingly likely to get the jump on them. I mean obviously spellcasters end up going slower than equal level non-casters over time, but is that maybe okay? (Maybe they'd get their caster level instead of BAB? But that would just leave rogue-types out in the cold because they don't have anything that's directly level appropriate linked to them.)

Is this maybe a cool idea?

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:20 pm

Maybe make it tied just to level instead?

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:23 pm

Level sounds good.

I've heard that Tome stabby characters already rape enough face in combat, which would imply they don't need to be better at it.

Also, rogues.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:25 pm

It'll really suck when you have the monsters with way too many hit dice always go first. (Typical problem that comes with anything BAB related you want to do)

Unless you apply it only to players. But people around here hate any mechanic that works differently for monsters and players.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:28 pm

Make it based on CR then.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:33 pm

Wasn't this topic already discussed? I have a strange sense of deja vu .

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:57 pm

Perhaps it was?

I guess just "Level / CR" might work better, yeah. My initial sense was to avoid the more ephemeral numbers, but that's probably the best way to go about it.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:06 pm

I'm not a fan. Neither the monster manuals or classes were built with that in mind at all. Several of the stereotypically fast classes are medium bab and they are also the ones that care the most about catching things flat-footed. And while I realize nobody ever feels bad for full casters, it's worth pointing out that wizards are notoriously fragile when denied the ability proactively shape the battlefield, and that gets hard to do when you're at a 4 point initiative gap vs. melee goons at level 8 and can expect the gap to grow to 6 at level 12. And lemme tell ya, there's few things more depressing than losing initiative to a tome barbarian.

Meanwhile, tying things to character level or CR isn't really any better. It maintains the status quo in weird PC class death match scenarios where everyone is the same level but otherwise it mostly creates a world where underdogs lose to higher level shit harder than they did before. It makes things kinda wonky with shit like giants--they out CR lots of people but are still supposed to be lumbering assholes.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:18 pm

Well you're generally not fighting things more than 2 points above your level, and you're almost never fighting anything more than 4 points above your level. I'd say the bigger gaps are more for the "sudden action" sorts of scenes in movies where guards or gangsters who are out classed (but don't always know it) all try to attack a main character, and then the main character responds before the would-be attackers can see anything happening.

Giants lumbering first because of their high level can be somewhat explained by them being terrifying when they start moving around, and it makes everyone else react just a hair slower to actually see, or something. I admit that that's a potential weakness of things.

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:42 pm

Not so much.
At best, you're left with a net-zero change; but with yet another number to throw in the mix.
At worst, it makes things way too wonky.

What is your intended goal?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:33 pm

Lokathor wrote:Well you're generally not fighting things more than 2 points above your level, and you're almost never fighting anything more than 4 points above your level.

That's true for the big named characters in a campaign but isn't necessarily so for the cohorts, animal companions, minions or summoned critters that end up taking a fair amount of screen time. I've heard worse ideas before, but ultimately it's an awkward fit for a game that has to model oozes and pixies.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:19 am

I presume the idea is that when you're fighting large numbers of low level people, instead of half of them beating your initiative and going first, they go last because they're low level.

But it's probably not an interesting thing to do. Give all the melee classes uncanny dodge so they get a bit less murdered by mooks and don't sweat it. If players want to be better still against mooks, there's tools available to allow that. Combat Reflexes and a spiked chain for one.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:50 am

How about getting an initiative bonus from your base reflex save. All of the classes which want to catch people flat footed have good REF.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:29 am

The Conan D20 game handles initiative like that, fwiw, and it favors the classes you'd expect it to favor, although again, the bestiary is built around the whole concept so it's not quite an apples to apples comparison, since lots of classes and critters have slightly different saving throw spreads. It's also a good reminder to houserule multi-class saving throws in some manner--for example, a certain famous Cimmerian took his earliest levels in barbarian, pirate and thief, all of which have good Reflex saves in that game, so his munchkin ass gets to go first, forever.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:42 am

In terms of my overall goal, what tussock wrote exactly. When a 6th level guy sees a crowd of 1st level orcs or elves, they should have a significantly better chance at going before they do when a fight breaks out.

Now, I'm pretty sure that no monster in the monster manual or the pathfinder beastiary or basically any other place ever has had it's initiative specially calibrated in any way. Monsters either spent a feat on Improved Initiative or not, and otherwise it's just their dexmod. I don't think anyone ever thought about a monster's initiative specifically and adjusted it to not be totally standard for the monster's dex and feats. I think the same probably goes for saves in a general sense, most creatures just have their dexmod and base save from hit dice and that's it (though some do have special save bonuses). The only numbers on a monster that I would guess really have a potentially calibrated value are AC (via an arbitrary natural armor bonus) and the monster's hit dice total (which is still anywhere from like 80% to 200% of the creature's CR, depending).

However, the disparity in BAB does get probably too large between the different rates. Similarly, I think that the difference in saves might also grow to be too much over time within a party (and also, the Samurai class doesn't even have a favored reflex save). I will take a moment to note though that in the case of "pixies need to be faster than oozes!", if reflex saves were used as initiative then sprites would always have better bonuses than oozes. Usually by 5 points or more.

If we look at Level / CR as a bonus to initiative, then actually the opposite happens instead. Pixies are all very low CR, and oozes go as high as CR 7. Pixie walks down a tunnel, hears the ooze, and looks up, everyone rolls for initiative. The ooze would end up with a really good chance of being able to drop down on the pixie (or rise up off the floor or whatever) before the pixie could react and get away. Which I think is okay, since oozes are supposed to be weird blob monsters, but usually ones that actually do kinda catch you by surprise when you run into them.

So, if anything, level would be the number to add to everyone's initiative, it seems.

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:57 am

I kind of like the idea of using Reflex mod.
UA's fractional saves solves the problem of people trying to munchkin saves/initiative, I think.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:58 am

And what do you think a monsters fucking Dex mod is designed to do?

I mean, Ref saves they give all kinds of stupid bonuses to saves, and they can usually pick whether it has a good ref save or not. AC they have like four thousand different bonuses.

Why do you think an Allip has a Dex of 12, a Wraith has a Dex of 16, and a Dread Wraith has a Dex of 28? I mean, the Dread Wraith has a Charisma bonus to AC already, you don't think they could have given it an insight bonus if they wanted a better AC?

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:37 am

3e monster stats are weird. A bunch of stuff gets Int and Cha penalties to make them crap at being Wizards and Sorcerers, because they weren't allowed to do that in AD&D. Everything has Wisdom 12+ so that Rogues can't sneak past any of them.

Things have 38 Strength because that's +14, which was what the maximum bonus was for Strength damage in AD&D. Whole bunches of things just match the old AD&D table results there. Con is "hey, does that need some more hit points? I think a Fighter almost killed something bigger than an Ogre."

And Dex is where it's 8 for big things because AC gets the arbitrary Natural bonus to make it "work", unless it's 28 because various things aren't allowed a Natural bonus to armour so you get the number some other way. And no, they couldn't have given it an Insight bonus, or an enhancement bonus, or a luck bonus, or divine bonus, or deflection, or anything like that. Not for the Monster Manual, monsters come too early in the dev cycle for all that shit.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:15 am

tussock wrote:And no, they couldn't have given it an Insight bonus, or an enhancement bonus, or a luck bonus, or divine bonus, or deflection, or anything like that. Not for the Monster Manual, monsters come too early in the dev cycle for all that shit.

It does have a deflection bonus you idiot. There are also monsters with enhancement bonuses, insight bonuses, and probably luck bonuses to AC too.

You are just full of shit and trying to make up connections to AD&D that don't exist. There is one Str 38 monster in the DMG. You are full of shit. Wisdom is just treated as a bonus to perception and will saves, because that is what it fucking does.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:21 am

Yeah, the Dread Wraith is getting its Charisma Modifier to AC as a Deflection bonus in place of a Natural Armor bonus because that's what ghosts and other incorporeal undead do. That's not very special. Incorporeal creatures don't get Natural Armor, they usually get Charisma to AC as a Deflection bonus instead. Yeah, they're still getting their AC pumped up to a vaguely level appropriate value.

But no, that doesn't mean that initiative has special bonuses stuck to it from monster to monster that gives monsters any kind of "level appropriate" initiative score in a stark way the same way that AC, Attack, Damage, and Hit Points all scale up.

And a monster pretty much has a goof reflex save or not according to its creature type. Some types specify that their type has variant good saves. Others do not. Of the others that do not, I'm not sure that you'll find any individual monsters that override the normal save progressions. At least not in the SRD. Maybe some weird add-on monster later totally does though.

Monsters generally don't have any special abilities to adjust their numbers like insight bonuses or whatever. Some have racial bonuses to a skill or something, but generally a monster is just given a huge stat if it needs more AC or Attack, because it's not like they'll use that stat very much. They usually just die during the encounter they show up.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:48 am

Lokathor wrote:But no, that doesn't mean that initiative has special bonuses stuck to it from monster to monster that gives monsters any kind of "level appropriate" initiative score in a stark way the same way that AC, Attack, Damage, and Hit Points all scale up.

Other than the fact that the scale is smaller Yes it does. Higher level monsters have on average higher Dex scores. This is true. This is precisely the issue. Higher level monsters already have arbitrary Natural Armors and often bonuses to Reflex saves.

Lokathor wrote:And a monster pretty much has a goof reflex save or not according to its creature type. Some types specify that their type has variant good saves. Others do not. Of the others that do not, I'm not sure that you'll find any individual monsters that override the normal save progressions. At least not in the SRD. Maybe some weird add-on monster later totally does though.

Which types get which Reflex saves is made up in the core book. Which type a monster is is made up in the book that has them. How many HD a monster has is also made up and completely arbitrary.

The Tarrasque has a +26 save from base save progression. All you have to do to give a monster a higher reflex save is give it more HD and a lower Con, so that it has the same HP and Fort save, but higher Will and reflex saves. And hell, you can lower wisdom too, and just raise the reflex save. When HD is arbitrary and so are all the stats, the result is that you can get any save levels you want without in particular using one stat.

8d8 · Post by **8d8** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:43 pm

Kaelik is driving toward a point that, if it exists at all, is apparently a closely-guarded secret. Is this common or is he just being a bundle of kindling?

Anyway, here are my thoughts: Initiative is only rolled once a fight, and usually matters only once a fight (from then on you get delays and such to futz with it to the point that your roll and bonus don't matter). And because you're rolling a d20 for it, your bonus doesn't start to make a lick of a difference until it's at least +5 higher than everything else in the fight, and even then you can still go last. A wizard and a fighter with +2 and +0 initiative are never going to care at all about their initiative bonus because no person has a memory so good that they will notice any pattern in their history of who went first. The spread is the only thing that matters, and only then if it's a really high spread.

So if adding level or CR or something is intended to make it less likely that lower-level threats go before PCs, the end result is going to be ignorable for all but those fights that involve very weak mooks.

Why not instead just set static initiatives for some monsters? Against most foes it's rolled as-is, but if you're going up against a BBEG his is set at "first" and his 1HD minions are set at "last". Don't change the whole thing, just tell the DM it's a good idea to not let puny chumps go before PCs.

I'm not sure why you don't want puny chumps to go before PCs, but that is apparently your premise.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:44 pm

8d8 wrote:Kaelik is driving toward a point that, if it exists at all, is apparently a closely-guarded secret. Is this common or is he just being a bundle of kindling?

I don't understand what you are failing to get, I stated my premise at the beginning: Higher CR monsters are designed to have higher Init than lower CR monsters in general.

That being said, I'm revoking even the modicum of respect I grant to new posters for your weird anti-gay shit. Between this and you saying that Dungeon World is a shit book because the author is gay and writes gay, you are pretty fucking annoying.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:11 pm

Anyway, here are my thoughts: Initiative is only rolled once a fight, and usually matters only once a fight (from then on you get delays and such to futz with it to the point that your roll and bonus don't matter). And because you're rolling a d20 for it, your bonus doesn't start to make a lick of a difference until it's at least +5 higher than everything else in the fight, and even then you can still go last. A wizard and a fighter with +2 and +0 initiative are never going to care at all about their initiative bonus because no person has a memory so good that they will notice any pattern in their history of who went first. The spread is the only thing that matters, and only then if it's a really high spread.

The above is bullshit. A +2 bonus is 10 percent of the RNG, so it can and will matter over the course of a D&D campaign, since D&D has a lot of combats and features a fair amount of monsters with bullshit grapple and pounce routines that murder squishies pretty hard. Second, D&D doesn't involve a deck of cards and people aren't trying to guess what the odds were based on their gut feelings over time. People know what their stats are, they roll their own initiative and they're sure as shit are going to remember the times they got boned by an increment or two. People are often unreliable witnesses, certainly, but that's often because they do in fact care.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:15 am

Whipstitch wrote:People know what their stats are, they roll their own initiative and they're sure as shit are going to remember the times they got boned by an increment or two.

Right, and they're also not gonna remember the times that they won by an increment or two as much. Humans have lots of risk-avoidance systems in their brain, among which is the fact that people on average will remember times things were worse than expected more easily than when times were better than expected.

Since this would be a mild penalty when you're facing higher level foes but a mild boost when you're facing lower level foes, then the actual spread of if it's helping or hurting varies from game to game based on how the GM likes to build encounters. Total Guess: I would say that over half the encounters I've played in or run over years of DnD have leaned towards "lots of weaker enemies" than they have towards the "one big strong enemy" side of things. Your games might be different.

8d8 wrote:I'm not sure why you don't want puny chumps to go before PCs, but that is apparently your premise.

Did you read the first post? The very first sentence is that I was watching a lot of a TV Show, and then thought of a thing. So maybe the show has to do with that thing eh? (hint: it's a show about fast samurai man beating up chumps, and then later fast samurai man fights other bad fast samurai man and chumps watch and talk about how fast things are. repeat that a few times.)

Kaelik wrote:Other than the fact that the scale is smaller Yes it does.

Exactly, I'm looking for a bigger scale. Here's a chart of A through E, minus the dragons which are all +0, of CR and Initiative. Now I'm sure we could add a ton more data points, but I mostly got bored with the data entry. There's a positive trend, but it's still basically "all over the place".