What if everyone could cast spells?

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

zugschef
Knight-Baron
Posts: 821
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:53 pm

Post by zugschef »

I've just realized a mistake. This tweak is not so much for the unmodded vanilla game and I should have clarified that.
...You Lost Me wrote:I don't see the benefit that this provides. If you're worried about classes not getting nice things (and thus needing casting to cover their problems), then you should actually worry about giving those classes nice things. If you just want everybody to be able to be able to dabble in magic, then write a cantrip-like mechanic where everyone has access to magic. Don't give characters the ability to dumpster-dive for spells off any spell list with a skill check.
Look at the rogue. Look at the tome martial classes. They can play with the big kids in combat. What they can't do, is go on the adventure on their own. But giving them access to spells out of combat lets them do that and makes a non-caster party possible. Of course, they won't be able to advance past a certain level (mostly depending on the campaign style, probably when wizards start casting 6th level spells), but until level 11 I could see a tome-based non-caster party able to go on the big adventures with this tweak in use.

For the most part K's The Five Cornerstones to Adventuring thread inspired me. It was an attempt to fix the problem I brought up at the end of the thread's first page, namely that a character also needs to be able to go on the adventure at all. But it's also partly due to suspension of disbelief. It just doesn't work for me that anybody can just take a level in wizard and tada! start casting spells, while you can't just do that with knowledge (arcana) and a blueprint (i.e. spellbook).

(I'd also make every spell an arcane spell. Divine magic is only divine because clerics and druids pray or make a ritual to be granted their spells. They don't need a blueprint. That's why they don't need the somatic components. What they are essentially doing is imitating jesus by granting miracles. These miracles just happen to duplicate magic. Thus, there is no such thing as a divine scroll or wand with a divine spell. In fact, I'd remove the terms arcane and divine magic entirely and there's only magic (arcane) and miracles (divine). But that's another issue, so I'll stop there.)
Last edited by zugschef on Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Schleiermacher
Knight-Baron
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:39 am

Post by Schleiermacher »

Look at the rogue. Look at the tome martial classes. They can play with the big kids in combat. What they can't do, is go on the adventure on their own. But giving them access to spells out of combat lets them do that and makes a non-caster party possible.
No, what you're actually doing is making it impossible to play non-caster characters ever at all, never mind non-caster parties. Because everyone is in fact casting spells. This is either a bait-and-switch or massive cognitive dissonance.
zugschef
Knight-Baron
Posts: 821
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:53 pm

Post by zugschef »

Schleiermacher wrote:
Look at the rogue. Look at the tome martial classes. They can play with the big kids in combat. What they can't do, is go on the adventure on their own. But giving them access to spells out of combat lets them do that and makes a non-caster party possible.
No, what you're actually doing is making it impossible to play non-caster characters ever at all, never mind non-caster parties. Because everyone is in fact casting spells. This is either a bait-and-switch or massive cognitive dissonance.
You just can't write classes without spells (or something similar) in DnD which cover all the necessary "you gotta be this tall to ride" requirements. Conan has adventures where he needs a magical device to do shit. After using that device, he is still a mundane character. So what is your fucking point?

Non-caster characters are inherently impossible after a certain level in DnD. That's the truth. You can't face colossal dragons and Solars without spellcasting (or a similarly diverse power source). Don't you derail this into a fighter-thread.
Last edited by zugschef on Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:27 am, edited 4 times in total.
Schleiermacher
Knight-Baron
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:39 am

Post by Schleiermacher »

The last thing I want is another fighter thread. Let's see if I manage to contradict you without derailing this thread. (You're not leaving me a lot of room to do so!)
You just can't write classes without spells (or something similar) in DnD which cover all the necessary "you gotta be this tall to ride" requirements. Conan has adventures where he needs a magical device to do shit. After using that device, he is still a mundane character. So what is your fucking point?


My point is not what you seem to think it is, viz. sabre-rattling on behalf of mundane characters. Mundane characters can bloody well get "something similar" at level 6 and stop being mundane so the casters don't have to carry them in level-appropriate adventures. That is uncontroversial.

But we aren't talking about "something similar" or about "magical devices." We are literally talking about spellcasting. If you are a character who casts spells, you are a spellcasting character. That is a tautology. And if everyone casts spells, nobody is a non-caster. That is about as simple logic as you can get. Which brings us to:
Non-caster characters are inherently impossible after a certain level in DnD. That's the truth. You can't face colossal dragons and Solars without spellcasting (or a similarly diverse power source).
I don't know, I think a Tome Monk could have a go at it. And that's my point: When I say "non-caster", you think I mean "mundane", but I actually do just mean "not literally casting spells", because having every class do the same things in the same ways is boring, destroys variety and makes it pretty pointless to have a class system in the first place. If you're going to have a class system, you want each class to do things in its own way. So instead of mucking around giving spells to everyone, start writing up your "something similar"s and your "similarly diverse power source"s. It'd be a lot more worthwhile.

As a secondary point, I do think that most full casters (which would include dragons and Solars, so there's that) are too versatile and could stand to have to make some more choices and deal with some opportunity costs on their real ultimate power, because having your area of expertise be "everything, especially if I get a day's notice" is not good class design, but the target "something similar" needs to hit doesn't change *that* much if your balance point is Frank's variant Sorcerer rather than the core Wizard.
Last edited by Schleiermacher on Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
ishy
Duke
Posts: 2404
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:59 pm

Post by ishy »

zugschef wrote:You just can't write classes without spells (or something similar) in DnD which cover all the necessary "you gotta be this tall to ride" requirements. Conan has adventures where he needs a magical device to do shit. After using that device, he is still a mundane character. So what is your fucking point?

Non-caster characters are inherently impossible after a certain level in DnD. That's the truth. You can't face colossal dragons and Solars without spellcasting (or a similarly diverse power source). Don't you derail this into a fighter-thread.
Conan is also afraid of wizards. And even says:"What good is a sword against sorcery?" and stuff like:
"But there's magic in this game. I'll have to fight it with magic." before picking up his wizard follower.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
...You Lost Me
Duke
Posts: 1854
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:21 am

Post by ...You Lost Me »

zugschef wrote:Look at the rogue. Look at the tome martial classes. They can play with the big kids in combat. What they can't do, is go on the adventure on their own. But giving them access to spells out of combat lets them do that and makes a non-caster party possible. Of course, they won't be able to advance past a certain level (mostly depending on the campaign style, probably when wizards start casting 6th level spells), but until level 11 I could see a tome-based non-caster party able to go on the big adventures with this tweak in use.
Alteratively, you can do what I said in the post you quoted and write abilities in that allow the classes to do the things you want, instead of half-heartedly stapling a crappy open-ended magic system which may or may not fill the functionality you desire.

Here is a list of people who are not spellcasters that can go on adventures:
  • Basically any sphere-user
  • Monk
  • Elemental Siphon
  • Gadgeteer
  • Storm Lord
  • Soulborn
Do you get it now?
Last edited by ...You Lost Me on Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.
zugschef
Knight-Baron
Posts: 821
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:53 pm

Post by zugschef »

...You Lost Me wrote:
zugschef wrote:Look at the rogue. Look at the tome martial classes. They can play with the big kids in combat. What they can't do, is go on the adventure on their own. But giving them access to spells out of combat lets them do that and makes a non-caster party possible. Of course, they won't be able to advance past a certain level (mostly depending on the campaign style, probably when wizards start casting 6th level spells), but until level 11 I could see a tome-based non-caster party able to go on the big adventures with this tweak in use.
Alteratively, you can do what I said in the post you quoted and write abilities in that allow the classes to do the things you want, instead of half-heartedly stapling a crappy open-ended magic system which may or may not fill the functionality you desire.

Here is a list of people who are not spellcasters that can go on adventures:
  • Basically any sphere-user
  • Monk
  • Elemental Siphon
  • Gadgeteer
  • Storm Lord
  • Soulborn
Do you get it now?
I get it. My criticism still stands. The Tome Monk as written can't go on adventures. He can't go on an adventure underwater or on the elemental plane of fire because he either drowns or burns to ashes. You could write abilities for him that would provide benefits to survive in these and other environments, but that's an insane amount of text for only one class. Spells have the advantage that more than one class and monster can use them. Besides, while a Tome Monk then could theoretically meet the requirements for an adventure, there is no guarantee that any particular Tome Monk could. And it's not as easily solved as resting and preparing different spells.

DnD is way too complex to pack everything a class needs to be capable of into its class features entry.
Schleiermacher
Knight-Baron
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:39 am

Post by Schleiermacher »

By that standard the only people who can go on adventures are Clerics and Druids. Even Wizards fail to clear the "while a Tome Monk then could theoretically meet the requirements for an adventure, there is no guarantee that any particular Tome Monk could."-hurdle.

Characters don't have to be able to go everywhere and do everything under their own power, and individual members of a class don't have to have access to everything it's possible for that class to do. In fact both of those things are bugs, not features.

What characters do need to be able to do under their own power is deal with, and partake in, things that become ubiquitous at high levels, such as flight, planar travel, teleportation and incorporeality. And everyone needs to be able to go, and take others, on some types of exotic adventures so that no single class is required to go on an adventure and the spotlight doesn't fall on the same character every time the party goes somewhere exotic. Sometimes it's the Fire Mage protecting everyone in the lava castle, sometimes it's the Gageteer building scuba suits for the raid on the Sahuagin, and sometimes it's the Monk punching open a portal to Hell.
Post Reply