What if everyone could cast spells?

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zugschef
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What if everyone could cast spells?

Post by zugschef »

Why is magic off limits for non-casting classes? Giving everybody access to magic would solve so many problems. This idea isn't new but I've never seen it discussed when it comes to DnD. Even if only casting classes can use magic in combat effectively and have access to more powerful magics, it's still immensly helpful for the utility part of the game when the warriors can at least learn how to cast water breathing.

I mean, if it's so easy to just take a level in wizard after you've started as a barbarian, why is it unthinkable that anyone trained in knowledge (arcana) (fuck spellcraft) could just pick up a spellbook and cast a spell? Anybody can pick up a sword and stab people in the face, after all. So everybody can just do it like a wizard, because that's the magic=science class in the game. And since BAB is used to express a character's combat prowess, i think it's only natural to replace caster level with something similar to BAB (which would also fix all the caster level exploits). I'd say that every character with the spellcasting class feature has full casting bonus and everybody else has half. And yes, that means that a first level character without the spellcasting feature can't cast spells even if s/he has knowledge (arcana) as a class skill.

To cast a spell without spell slots, you need to first learn the spell. Once you've learned a spell by beating the appropriate spellcraft check (just like a wizard), casting this spell without spell slots simply takes time, 15 minutes (or 10 + spell level minutes) if you use a spellbook. You can cast a learned spell out of memory (without the use of a spellbook), but every time you do that you have to beat the spellcraft check again and once you fail it, you have forgotten the spell and need to learn it anew. Also, casting time is then doubled unless you beat the necessary spellcraft check by 10 + the number of minutes you want to be faster than that -- minimum 15 minutes (or 10 + spell level minutes).

Still, a limit to how many spells you can cast per day (other than the 24 hours a day has) without spell slots needs to be set. A random (and thus probably stupid and bad -- just like the rest of this post) idea I've just had was giving characters an amount of spell points equal to their casting stat modifier per day. Every spell cast without a spell slot costs an amount of spell points equal to its spell level. If you want to, you can also let people cast spells by taking con-damage equal to the spell level (this also provokes a concentration check to not lose the spell with the newly reduced con modifier). You can't use this method, if you have no con score or are immune to con-damage.

(You can do all of this with psionics, too.)

[EDIT] In case some people were so happy to find something stupid before thinking: This method doesn't replace spellcasting as is. It's in addition to normal spellcasting mechanics.
Last edited by zugschef on Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:45 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:
Pyromantic Dabbler
A Fire Mage offered to set your soul on fire. For some reason, you accepted.

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can use Produce Flame as an at-will SLA. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Burning Hands, Melt, and Resist Energy (Fire) once per hour each.

9: you can also cast Fireball, Heat Metal, and Empowered Flaming Sphere once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

14: you can also cast Fire Shield, Incendiary Cloud, and Wall of Fire once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

19: you can also cast Flame Strike, Extended Summon Monster VII (Fire Elementals only), and Quickened Scorching Ray 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

Special: The damage/healing dice for the SLAs granted by this feat are uncapped (For example, Fireball is not capped at 10d6 Fire damage). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.

----------------

Casual Hexxer
You can totally curdle a glass of milk with just one evil eye from 30 paces.

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can give someone in Medium range a -2 bullshit penalty on their d20 rolls until the beginning of your next turn as an at-will SLA that takes a swift action. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Corrupt Water (as the black dragon ability), Extended Bane, and Doom once per hour each.

9: you can also cast Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness (Long range instead of Medium, lasts 10 minutes per caster level), and Contagion once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

14: you can also cast Cursed Weather (as Control Weather, but it makes things like rains of frogs), Eyebite, and Blight once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

19: you can also cast Greater Bestow Curse, Finger of Death, and Soul Bind 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour.

Special: All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.


-----------------

Curative acolyte
Someone has to carry the first-aid kit. Not you.

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can use Cure Minor Wounds as an at-will SLA that takes an attack action. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Cure Light Wounds, Delay Poison, and Purify Food and Drink once per hour each.

9: you can also cast Lesser Restoration, Remove Blindness/Deafness, and Remove Paralysis once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. Cure Light Wounds upgrades to Cure Moderate Wounds

14: you can also cast Raise Dead, Restoration, and Remove Curse once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. Cure Moderate Wounds upgrades to Cure Critical Wounds.

19: you can also cast Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Resurrection, and Greater Restoration 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. Cure Critical Wounds upgrades to Heal

Special: The damage/healing dice/mods for the SLAs granted by this feat are uncapped (For example, Cure Light Wounds is not capped at +5 to the hit points healed). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.

-----------------

Magician
Nobody knows precisely how you can fit so many angelic badgers into your hat

Benefit: You gain Spellcraft as a Class Skill if it wasn't already, and you can use Prestidigitation as an at-will SLA. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Spellcraft.

4: you can also cast Extended Summon Monster I, Hypnotism (1d4 hit dice for every 2 caster levels, minimum 2d4), and Ventriloquism once per hour each. You may treat a single piece of clothing as a Glove of Storing as long as it is on your immediate person (if taken away for more than a round, the item concealed inside emerges).

9: you can also cast Animate Rope, Suggestion, and Silent Image once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. You may now treat 2 pieces of clothing as Gloves of Storing as long as they are on your immediate person (if taken away for more than 1 round per level, the item concealed inside emerges).

14: you can also cast Mass Suggestion, Telekinesis, and Programmed Image once per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. You may now treat 3 pieces of clothing as Gloves of Storing as long as they are on your immediate person (if taken away for more than 1 minute per level, the item concealed inside emerges. You can command it to emerge early as long as the item is in Short range).

19: you can also cast Greater Shadow Conjuration, Mislead, and Veil 3 times per hour each. The previous tier of SLAs can now be used 3 times per hour. You may now treat 4 pieces of clothing as Gloves of Storing as long as they are on your immediate person (if taken away for more than 1 hour per level, the item concealed inside emerges. You can command it to emerge early as long as the item is in Long range).

Special: All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). All save DCs for the abilities granted by this feat are (DC 10 + highest mental ability modifier + 1/2 your level). Your caster level is equal to your character level.
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Post by Kaelik »

I wish I had a copy pasta for every stupid thread that pops up with this as a premise. Please go find whichever stupid suggestion with the exact same name as this thread most closely matches your suggestion, then read why it is stupid.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

I feel like I've seen a bunch of threads like this one, but the only one I could find in Google is this one.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Check out earthdawn and other pointbuy systems then. Though I wonder, how much magical power could a single tome feat grant so it's balanced with tome combat and skill feats?

*Here's some examples of magic granting tome feats:


Born of Thunder [Combat]
You are connected to the primal forces of Nature.
BaB
+0: You gain Electricity and Sonic resistance 5.
+1: When you make a Full Attack action any attacks granted by your BaB deal an additional D6 Sonic damage.
+6: Once per minute you can release a Lightning Bolt as a Spell-like ability at a caster level equal to your character level.
+11: Whenever you deal Electricity damage the target must make a Fort save or become Stunned for 1 round.
+16: Once per day you can Control Weather as per the spell. You are now Immune to Sonic and Electricity damage.

Skychild [Combat]
You are a creature of the air.
BaB
+0: Protective winds whip around you, providing a +1/3 levels Deflection bonus to AC. You can now take [Elemental] feats.
+1: You may make a 5' step as a Swift action, even if you have already moved this turn.
+6: You gain the [Air] subtype and once per minute can use Gust of Wind as a spell like ability with a caster level equal to your character level.
+11: You can Air Walk as per the spell as a [Su] ability.
+16: You gain the Whirlwind [Su] ability of an Elder Air Elemental.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

OgreBattle wrote:Though I wonder, how much magical power could a single tome feat grant so it's balanced with tome combat and skill feats?
The first thing is that it needs to be more-or-less horizontal power.

Once you have that, umm, I dunno, I'd have to think more.
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Post by zugschef »

Kaelik wrote:I wish I had a copy pasta for every stupid thread that pops up with this as a premise. Please go find whichever stupid suggestion with the exact same name as this thread most closely matches your suggestion, then read why it is stupid.
You are an idiot and if you don't believe me, google the threads with my arguments.
OgreBattle wrote:You're turning into a point buy system at that point, check out Earthdawn.
Why is that?

[EDIT] In case some people were so happy to find something stupid before thinking: This method doesn't replace spellcasting as is. It's in addition to normal spellcasting mechanics.
Last edited by zugschef on Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ishy »

Having half your level as your spell casting level is stupid and you should avoid it.

Basing casting on a skill check is stupid too.

You're probably better off making themed classes which gain access to their own spells.
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Post by Ancient History »

Conan d20 has a "Dabbler" feat which allows non-scholars to dip into spellcasting, though not with anything like the power or proficiency of an actual class. For the ability to, say, know and specialize in a single spell that's an ability relatively uncommon in class-based systems, but pretty automatic in point-buy systems like GURPS.

Thematically, the advantage of "magic is a skill everyone can develop" is examined in fiction like the Vlad Taltos series; rulers place no "divine right" on such abilities, which tend to be common and reflect an individual's interest in sorcery (and what they can afford as far as grimoires, tutors, etc.) The general effect of magic being available to every social class is that if magic can make life simpler or more economical, it often (though not always) does - think less Eberron magic-trains than Magic, Inc. or The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump, often with overtones of magitech.
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Post by hogarth »

zugschef wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:You're turning into a point buy system at that point, check out Earthdawn.
Why is that?
Point buy systems are great for allowing players to pick and choose what types of abilities their PCs will have (for instance, giving your PC as much or as little spellcasting as desired). I'm not sure what the benefit is to bolting the same kinds of "pick and choose" abilities to a class-based system, other than being able to claim that you're still playing D&D or whatever.
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Post by Lokathor »

In the specific case of Earthdawn, let's bring up two things:

1) Earthdawn has "everyone using magic", but there's still spellcasting magic users and non-spellcasting magic users, and it's got the same linear fighter / quadratic wizard problem as always. It's just that now the fighters are using magic to power up their sword skills overnight after each adventure, instead of using training to power them up in a week of practice after each adventure.

2) Earthdawn has a pile of points that you pay out of to power up your Talents (magical) and Skills (non-magical equivalents of most Talents that you could imagine having a mundane form). The costs follow the fibonacci sequence, starting at the second 1, and times 100 (100, 200, 300, 500, 800, etc). Then you also have your Discipline, which is basically your Class. Your discipline determines what Talents you can access, and at what levels you gain access to them. Contrast this concept with the fact that everyone can use any Skill at any level, even though some Skills directly emulate some Talents. It's weird.

To advance to the next Circle in your Discipline (aka, "level up your class") you need to have enough of your Talents from that Discipline leveled up to have a rank equal to the Circle you want to attain (eg: to get to Circle 2, all your Talents have to be Rank 2). You can also have more than one Discipline, but this is considered a "very high level" sort of thing to pick up a second discipline.
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Post by OgreBattle »

If I were building D&D ground up with the design goal "every class can access magic by some means if they felt like it" I'd probably go with...

Class- You can pick a class with casting ability

Skills: There are rituals tied to skills that you can learn, so because conan is trained in nature survival already he can learn a ritual of warding against a supernatural predator sent after him. Rituals can either take a feat or class ability to use, or it's like a spellbook that anyone can fill in and you acquire them as the DM/module permits. If acquiring rituals are a 'free' resource (like jotting down a spell in a spellbook) then rituals should trend to the specific side, encouraging adventurers to collect ancient bits of pokedex knowledge on the magical flora, fauna, and environs they'll be encountering.

Feats: Like what I posted already, add some feats that give you some magical powers

So you could be a Rogue and pick up a ritual that lets you sense the presence of ghosts and a feat that lets you tumble through the shadow realm.
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Post by OgreBattle »

If I were building D&D ground up with the design goal "every class can access magic by some means if they felt like it" I'd probably go with...

Class- You can pick a class with casting ability

Skills: There are rituals tied to skills that you can learn, so because conan is trained in nature survival already he can learn a ritual of warding against a supernatural predator sent after him. Rituals can either take a feat or class ability to use, or it's like a spellbook that anyone can fill in and you acquire them as the DM/module permits. If acquiring rituals are a 'free' resource (like jotting down a spell in a spellbook) then rituals should trend to the specific side, encouraging adventurers to collect ancient bits of pokedex knowledge on the magical flora, fauna, and environs they'll be encountering.

Feats: Like what I posted already, add some feats that give you some magical powers

So you could be a Rogue and pick up a ritual that lets you sense the presence of ghosts and a feat that lets you tumble through the shadow realm.
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Post by Ancient History »

Lokathor wrote:In the specific case of Earthdawn, let's bring up two things:

1) Earthdawn has "everyone using magic", but there's still spellcasting magic users and non-spellcasting magic users, and it's got the same linear fighter / quadratic wizard problem as always. It's just that now the fighters are using magic to power up their sword skills overnight after each adventure, instead of using training to power them up in a week of practice after each adventure.
Well, yes and no. There are classes devoted to spellcasting, yes. But Spellcasting is also a Skill as well as a talent, and available to everyone. So you could cast any 0-thread spell without a spell matrix that you know, or use a blood matrix, or even grimoire-cast spells - and you don't even have to be an adept to do that. If you are an adept but not one of the spellcasting disciplines, you can still bind spell-matrix items and "safely" cast 0-thread spells that way.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

The extremely crazy game World Tree (which I really should review at some point) is an all-spellcaster world, where everyone has at least some spell points and the vast majority of people know at least a few spells. Although, most people are sensibly practical individuals and learn such spells as 'stack dishes,' and 'dust room,' with maybe a childhood folly like 'conjure ice cream' or 'Boone's Accurate Loogie.'
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Post by Prak »

I kind of like World Tree's idea. That's kind of cool. Glorantha is similar, though it boils down to "Everyone knows '+10% to my primary occupation skill' and another spell that is unlikely to matter."
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

I don't see the benefit that this provides. If you're worried about classes not getting nice things (and thus needing casting to cover their problems), then you should actually worry about giving those classes nice things. If you just want everybody to be able to be able to dabble in magic, then write a cantrip-like mechanic where everyone has access to magic. Don't give characters the ability to dumpster-dive for spells off any spell list with a skill check.
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Post by silva »

Yup, Glorantha is like this. Everybody knows a couple spells or charms related to their religion or profession. Its like a world where all your grandma tricks and superstitions work.
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Post by Kaelik »

RadiantPhoenix wrote:I feel like I've seen a bunch of threads like this one, but the only one I could find in Google is this one.
There is also this one and this one.

And every fighter's suck thread eventually involves people saying "why can't we just give the fighters spells."
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Post by virgil »

Kaelik wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:I feel like I've seen a bunch of threads like this one, but the only one I could find in Google is this one.
There is also this one and this one.

And every fighter's suck thread eventually involves people saying "why can't we just give the fighters spells."
Hasn't the counter always been hand wringing and going "but the grognards won't like it"?
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Post by fectin »

Not entirely. It only "fixes" the problem to the extent that fighters can do what wizards can. So either fighters are shittily useless wizard wanna-bes, or fighters /are/ wizards.
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Post by hogarth »

For completeness, I should mention Midnight -- a D&D setting where spellcasting is mostly feat-based and spellcasting classes get those feats as bonus feats.
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Post by Kaelik »

virgil wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:I feel like I've seen a bunch of threads like this one, but the only one I could find in Google is this one.
There is also this one and this one.

And every fighter's suck thread eventually involves people saying "why can't we just give the fighters spells."
Hasn't the counter always been hand wringing and going "but the grognards won't like it"?
No the counter has always been that if you only like Apples that look, taste, and smell like Bananas, then you probably don't like Apples, and you should just call the Bananas Bananas while you eat them.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

Kaelik wrote:this one.
I'm pretty sure that that's the one I was remembering
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Post by Lokathor »

Ancient History wrote:Well, yes and no. There are classes devoted to spellcasting, yes. But Spellcasting is also a Skill as well as a talent, and available to everyone.
Counterpoint, the Spellcasting Skill was removed in 2e and left out of 3e as well. I would say with good reason.
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