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Koumei
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hrm. I'm having trouble figuring out even basic conversation/quest stuff for the toolset, such as how to make something as basic as:
-The trapdoor to the dungeon won't "activate" until you talk to Dave
-Talk to Dave. If you've already spoken, he asks "Any progress?" and you can complete the quest if you've gone into the dungeon and done stuff.
-If you haven't already spoken, he explains what you have to do, you get the journal entry, and the trapdoor activates so you can use it to get into the dungeon.

So it seems the easiest thing to do at the moment actually is to create a pure hack-n-slash until I can get the hang of this stuff.

I found another Epic module, but... it wasn't great. You wander through areas fighting chump-change golems that give you heaps of XP, and then levelled humanoids with bullshit equipment, who are individually tough challenges and if you get into a fight with three at once, you will die. The first three are seriously the Sephiroth clones from Advent Children. Any time you kill someone, look through their gear, one thing drops a +10 Greatsword that has a chance of death when it hits and has a 1-use-ever ability to instantly kill something no-save (for a plot enemy). It's just not very interesting, and the inclusion of Final Fantasy stuff was puzzling. You even get a materia that summons Bahamut as a companion.
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codeGlaze
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If I remember the toolset correctly... there should actually be a button in the UI or something to set triggers.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'll have to play around a bit.

So I've tested a whole bunch of Epic "designed for post-HotU" modules, and they all rely on outdated versions of the CEP, which means they won't work without a bit of fucking around. This is sad. I'll just make my own Epic Dungeoncrawls, I guess.

If I ever complete a module, I'm happy to share it around, by the way. That's rather the point. If others want to do the same, that'd be awesome.

Anyway, played NWN2 a bit more, and...
1. It's interesting to see that they've gone further than the first game in doing their own thing, saying "This is a video game based on D&D, not D&D using a video game interface". I think the changes to the Bard is an improvement, Warlock Invocations (generally) got better (although Flee the Scene becoming Mass Haste instead of D-Door + Mirror Image is a bit sad, I loved the ninja log trick) and Charm Person is now useful. In Tabletop, Charm is obviously awesome. I've never seen it work in the video games though, so they just turned it into a combat spell that "dazes" the target (they won't hurt you, their new friend, but also won't hurt their old friends). I can live with Knockdown, Taunt, Parry, Discipline etc. Splitting the traps thing into even more fucking skills is annoying, but whatever.
2. Including Background Trait Things (basically the UA thing) is kind of cool, and it looks like either that or your class/alignment determines what people say to you early on - playing a CG Bard [Troublemaker] causes people to berate you at the fair, "No tricks like last time!" and "You've always gone hand in hand with trouble!"
3. I really can't be fucked going through their crafting mechanics. I'll do it as a Warlock as they can sidestep all spellcasting stuff, but still, gathering recipes and ingredients and also having the feats and so on... what a pain.
4. They add a new video game mechanic (soul eating) in the Epic level expansion, and that just rubs me the wrong way. It's too much of a deviation from the normal game.
5. Holy shit, Heal is actually a useful skill (okay that was also true in NWN). It would not make me sad if Heal basically worked the same way in tabletop.
6. I have no bad things to say about the shipwrecked one. The way skills work in overworld travel and random battles, the exploration, the fact that it doesn't guide you around by the nose but lets you wander and do stuff in whatever order you like while letting you figure out "No, there are wyverns there, I don't feel up to fighting all of them at once", and the bit where different party members can chip into a conversation so despite you making the team, it feels like a proper cast of characters as Bioware is known for.
7. Speaking of which, the NPCs in the base game. Okay, that Dwarf is cool, wanting to become a monk and all that, because "it's all about fighting". But he's a pain in the ass about the rest of the party, and he has some kind of an issue with "stealing the nails, and then stealing everything that isn't nailed down". The Druid is really easy to please by just not being a shit, but she's kind of bland. I like the Tiefling Rogue, but maybe that's just because I'm playing a Bard so basically any suggestion she has is exactly what I wanted to do anyway. The NPC bard they introduced couldn't actually be more annoying if they tried, so I will never include him in a party. Meeting Deekin was a nice touch, but I'm glad he doesn't join you.

Incidentally, there are Level-Adjustment races. Does their LA count against maximum level, or can they still hit level 30, it just takes longer?
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Lago PARANOIA
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei, if you can tolerate NWN2 to the point where you are then you should stick with it until the end. The final act of the game is by far the best and the 2nd-to-last arc of the game is genuinely good. The first act is by far the weakest and I can understand many people wanting to just give up by that point in the game.

That said, if you beat the game and liked it at least a little bit, you owe it to yourself to play Mask of the Betrayer. Seriously, except for that ending it is seriously one of the best experiences you'll ever have in a cRPG. And yeah, I understand your consternation about the soul-eating thing but it's so integrated in the plot and NPC interactions that it just becomes part of the experience. In particular, the game is not exactly shy about who are what it will let you soul-eat.
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Josh Kablack wrote:
Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.


Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Avoraciopoctules
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In both NWN games, I found that the experience improved dramatically if I made some custom items for my characters in the toolset beforehand. If the combat is getting tedious, just throw at-will implosions and summoned superdemons at the enemies from your magic ring. Or put on the immunity-to-everything ring and just walk through.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, I intend on playing through, and honestly I'm happy to go few with a few characters to try different things. I might even try a Monk, seeing as they actually get decent gear that powers them up in NWN games. Admittedly, no Dire Tiger amulets, but I could make a custom item that does that. Though perhaps the Monk would be better in Mysteries of Westgate, as you can become a Vampire in that - stat boosts and even more unarmed damage!
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Lago PARANOIA
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
I might even try a Monk,


I know that NWN2 is a video game that only loosely follows 3.5E D&D, but you should still be deeply ashamed of yourself for typing that madness.

Koumei wrote:
Admittedly, no Dire Tiger amulets, but I could make a custom item that does that.


Nevermind. Go with our blessing, Koumei.
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Josh Kablack wrote:
Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.


Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay, so the game doesn't have Dire Tigers or even regular ones, so no such amulet can exist. That's a dealbreaker for "core" monks. That's also disappointing: regular NWN core game has basically every type of fucking cat in existence. NWN2 seems really devoid of content, comparatively, even before we talk about the PRC.

I've hit a dead end with the Bard - the Ranger just joined my team, we went to the ambush, and then... I can't go to the world map. The little glowing icon is there, but the character simply walks over and stands on it. I'll have to manually go through all the maps in the toolkit until I find the correct one that should come next, then use the console to teleport there.

So for now I'm putting that aside and playing more Zehir and Westgate.

-

In NWN regular, Improved Knockdown is pretty awesome. With an Attack Action you hit someone for damage and then potentially knock them to the ground where they spend an entire turn unable to act (and also flat-footed). So while Hexblade/Lasher takes so long to get off the ground (and in the base game has to craft their own weapons so doesn't have a +1 weapon until level 10-12) that you need a base race of Rakshasa or something to survive, once you reach that level 12 point, every combat is:
-Walk up to someone, hidden in plain sight
-Inform them that combat is starting, with a Sneak Attack (+8d6 or so*)
-Hit them again, knocking them down
-Sneak Attack a few more times
-They're dead so they don't stand up

*Naztharune Rakshasa, enjoy flat-out getting +7d6 Sneak Attack as a starting character. And DR 15 and good SR.
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codeGlaze
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
Okay, so the game doesn't have Dire Tigers or even regular ones, so no such amulet can exist. That's a dealbreaker for "core" monks. That's also disappointing: regular NWN core game has basically every type of fucking cat in existence. NWN2 seems really devoid of content, comparatively, even before we talk about the PRC.

That might have to do with it not being as popular as the first one.

Or, at least, that's the feeling I got when it was released.
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nockermensch
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
*Naztharune Rakshasa, enjoy flat-out getting +7d6 Sneak Attack as a starting character. And DR 15 and good SR.

This game gets way better with the PRC. I must replay SoZ with a party formed by assorted Rakshasas, Bralani Eladrins and Nymphs.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That was the first one. I'm not sure NWN2 has that stuff, and if it does, LINK PLOX.
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nockermensch
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
That was the first one. I'm not sure NWN2 has that stuff, and if it does, LINK PLOX.

Oh damn, you're right. The additional content available for NWN2 is much smaller. I got a pack with some additional classes, including the ToB ones, but the power level there is surprisingly checked in. Going through Mark of Betrayer with a Warblade was kind of nice, tho.

>tfw no SoZ rakshasa party
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Really? That's pretty cool, could you link that? Preferably with instructions on how to install, I'm not sure what you need to do to add content to NWN2.

That said, going into Storm of Zehir with Rakshasa/Bralani/Dragonkin/Nymph/Mind Flayer as the party would indeed be pretty rad.
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nockermensch
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
Really? That's pretty cool, could you link that? Preferably with instructions on how to install, I'm not sure what you need to do to add content to NWN2.

That said, going into Storm of Zehir with Rakshasa/Bralani/Dragonkin/Nymph/Mind Flayer as the party would indeed be pretty rad.


This is the mod: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2HakpaksCombined.Detail&id=58. I installed it months ago. The instructions found on the description worked well for me. In NWN2 there's no need of a java character creator, as all the new content appears right in the game after you place the mod files in place.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Awesome, thanks!
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nockermensch
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
Awesome, thanks!

Actually, I want to agree with the awesome. This link I sent you wasn't the same I installed months ago, something I noticed when I read carefully what it contained. What I installed before was seemingly just a combo of Kaedrin PrCs and Tome of Battle. This one has oodles of new races too!

The bad part is that you must pay the LA cost for them. The good part is Firbolg! Alu-Fiend! Half-Ogre! Worg! (ಠ_ಠ)

Just the character creation ate about 2 hours of my life yesterday while I read all the options and tried builds. I must now figure a hilarious party for SoZ. Besides Replaying MoB with a Worg Druid (I just need to check if I can have a Worg Animal Companion too).
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So you can wolf while you wolf.

And apparently, the Level Adjustment only alters how much XP you need to gain levels, so if you're playing campaigns like SoZ that spawn new monsters on the map, or if you're fine with just using DebugMode to magically grant XP, you can still hit level 30 just like everyone else.

And then you're a level 30 character with superior stats.

I also found a hakpak that adds way more animal companion options, including tigers and IIRC dire tigers... but it shares memory addresses with the combined hakpak there, which results in most of the nonstandard races appearing as animals. "Wait what? The Desert Elf looks like a snake, that's not right. Hang on, Ogres don't look like Sharks..."

And I value the new races more than I value being able to make an amulet that turns Monks into Dire Tigers.
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Shiritai
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Modifying the ECL and other features of those added races is surprisingly easy too; just open up Documents\Neverwinter Nights 2\override\zzz_KPrC_SFI_TCC_merge\2DA\racialsubtypes.2da with notepad and everything's there in neat table form.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, that makes it even better. Is the same true for the core races? Because Planetouched are all Humanoid and don't get free Martial Proficiency, and as we know as a fact from books, that means they're LA +0 rather than +X.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, that hakpack modifies all the races, so that override file has all of them listed.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Awesome, I may have to do that then. I have to say though, even the Yuan-ti Pureblood is more acceptable if played as "No racial hit dice, has an XP penalty of 3,000". Although they don't seriously have stuff that makes them third-level characters as Druid 1 or Wizard 1 or whatever, it penalises them much less.

That treatment of LA (and the removal of needless racial hit dice) is one of the things that regular D&D could learn from NWN. Along with "using social skills as though they're keys in conversations", and the way the Heal skill works.

I should create a second SoZ team now, with all crazy options.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
Awesome, I may have to do that then. I have to say though, even the Yuan-ti Pureblood is more acceptable if played as "No racial hit dice, has an XP penalty of 3,000". Although they don't seriously have stuff that makes them third-level characters as Druid 1 or Wizard 1 or whatever, it penalises them much less.

That treatment of LA (and the removal of needless racial hit dice) is one of the things that regular D&D could learn from NWN. Along with "using social skills as though they're keys in conversations", and the way the Heal skill works.

I should create a second SoZ team now, with all crazy options.

While you're at it, remove the favored classes, which are found on the same file we altered to completely remove reasonably reduce the LAs. Look for the column named hasFavoredClass (or something). It's really easy to spot because everybody will have a 1 while humans and half-elves have a 0. Make everybody 0 because favored class was a really stupid idea. Now every race will default to "any", which will still fuck with some builds but's seemingly the best we can get given the engine limitations.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FRUA and AOL:NWN still the best games out there for D&D. the gold box series games just work so well to emulate the TTRPG and not just be another arcade game with a fantasy theme with proprietary bits.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I can't link to it because I'm at work, but there's a great NWN2 mod that basically increases the amount of items dropped, and makes them more interesting. It pretty much just takes "any item" and randomly adds item properties, trying to keep them vaguely in line with stuff you should be finding at your level. So lots of stuff that gives +1 AC against Lawful Evil or +1 to saves against Cold effects or whatever, turning 1GP clothing into an easy 500GP but not being worth actually using. Some gems have included:
-An amulet that had the property of "Paladins Only". No other features.
-Boots that grant Darkvision.

I started a new game (base campaign) with a Halfling Druid, and seriously had something like 10K before I actually headed into the swamp. No really. That's on the level 3-4 cusp. Unfortunately, there was some kind of bug, probably caused by one of the various hakpaks: inside the swamp ruins, it updated the "Loot Tarmas' House" quest and then Large Water Elementals started endlessly spawning. Against a pair of level 4 characters. We were very quickly turned into Necromancy material components.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Huh, Aribeth goes both ways. That's excellent. (In Alignment as well as gender - you can have her go with you even as an Evildoer, as well as both sexes being able to romance her. Must be an elf thing!)

Anyway, NWN2. How do you actually ready/use the Weeaboo Stances and Manoeuvres? I learned them (move the "Manage Weeaboo Fightan Magic" feat to the quickbar, click that, select what you want to learn), and that created the book which contains the things you know... but actually using them doesn't seem to be available.
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