Alchemy Skill?

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:49 pm

Nobody ever takes Brew Potion, which kind of sucks, as it's conceptually kind of fun. So my idea was to make the Alchemy* skill matter by allowing it to be used to make potions instead of the feat.

Is that broken, or a good idea. I also wanted to do this because the idea of a potions factory seems like an interesting place to have an adventure.

*Craft (Alchemy), whatever.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:15 pm

Potions are boring because they are just scrolls or a spellcaster you keep on payroll. You output money, make no decisions, and save a spell for later.

If you could choose from a range of optional "ingredients" for what to throw into your potion to get different results so that you could make situation dependent buffs if you had time to prepare for encounters then maybe that would be fun. I wouldn't take brew potion because it's not fun and it doesn't replicate the fiction and concepts I want it to replicate.

duo31 · Post by **duo31** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:06 pm

I like the idea for low level play of characters getting pumped on courage juice or purple drink, before they get their murder hobo on. Emulates plenty of real life encounters. Also combat drugs.

I think that the requirement for Craft(Alchemy) of being a spellcaster is retarded. You don't need to be a Druid or a Cleric to take Profession(Apothecary).

As to ?, sounds good to me, just make potions scale to DC (something like 15+CL), and if you want to give players reasons to hunt exotic creatures, make the DCs for some potions very high, and if the crafter has the right ingredient, then they can lower the DC to a reasonable level. Fabricate, Major Creation, and PAO may be a problem though. or maybe not, potions cap at 3rd, so why not allow high level spells to create mass low level effects.

AndreiChekov · Post by **AndreiChekov** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:16 am

I have to agree with dou31. I never used it because it is limited to spellcasters, but when I play a spellcaster, I don't need to make potions because I have spells.
If you make the spells available from it more interesting, that would probably be enough to make it used. The only advantage a potion has over a scroll is that anyone can use it.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:34 am

Alchemy in D&D3.+ got really weird, because there was zero guidelines or limitations on how powerful (or useless) a given alchemical item could be. There were some weird hacks to it - I remember Master Alchemist or something in Magic of Faerun was a prestige class that could brew potions up to 9th level spells, for example, and that's just good fun to be able to place 9th-level spell potions in treasure. Augmented Alchemy in the Epic Level Handbook was something no one was probably ever going to take, but if you did it basically became an open-ended excuse to abuse all the random alchemical crap cluttering up the Forgotten Realms books and Dragon Magazine - because you could totally make a potion of acid that dissolved a fucking stone golem or wall of stone without trying too hard. And if you mucked about with Unearthed Arcana a bunch of the metamagic components were basically just a couple gold pieces and an alchemy check away.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:26 am

Brew Potion is a bullshit feat, likewise rings, rods, scrolls, wands... armor/weapons and staves at least can do stuff outside of Wondrous Item's purview, unless someone demonstrates otherwise in which case I won't put up much of a fight in arguing the case.

Anywho, just create Elixirs with Create Wondrous Item and basically do as AH mentioned, higher level spells in Elixirs.

Fuck, use Elixir's to replace all sorts of single use Wondrous Items: Deck of Illusion (have fun pouring Elixirs on stuff to create illusions... throw several into a room at once to sow some confusion); Elixir of Dryness from Dust of Dryness; Elixir Tree from the Tree Token (don't drink that one!)... you get it.

[edit: shit, forgot to address the original post/thread idea. Hate it when that happens.

Being able to create level 1-3 spell effect potions with Alchemy (and basically buying said potions at 1/2 cost in exchange for setting skill points and some amount of character time resource on fire) seems totally fair and reasonable.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:30 am

You have staves and rods switched.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:37 am

Prak_Anima wrote:You have staves and rods switched.

Me? Staves are unique in that you can use your caster level and DC unlike Wondrous Items. (to my knowledge)

Rods abilities are unique only because they say so explicitly. You know, just like all sorts of random Wondrous Items that have powers not otherwise duplicated... making them not terribly unique. The only reason Rod powers can't be replicated with Wondrous Items (or Arms & Armor) is DM neckbeardliness.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:38 am

Fair, I thought you were doing a strict "only replicates spells/can have unique abilities" split.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:39 am

Wiseman wrote:it's conceptually kind of fun.

Sadly this concept has no place in modern RPGs. They are all about DA RULES.

That which is to be considered "fun" must be quantified and placed into a matrix and the RNG.

Just imagine a game like D&D where you could make poisons to coat your blade with. Not allowed, there is a class made for that and it was removed. Imagine a game where anyone could go along picking pockets or locks, not allowed there is a class made for that. Modern D&D is all about DA RULES, and if you go off the path of DA RULES, you are either doing it wrong, or having BADWRONGFUN.

You have non-casters making drinks of all sorts and flavors, but only casters can make something that restores health for some reason. Why? Because DA RULES.

Play the game, not DA RULES...you will have more fun.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:37 pm

Huh? That's strictly a 2e thing. 3e and onward has a Craft (poisons) skill available to anyone who wants it, picking pockets via the disarm rules (and an optional skill check to not get caught) and lock picking available to literally anyone who spends 2 skill points on it.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:43 pm

Don't feed DA TROLL.

Shadzar said absolutely nothing worth refuting or responding to. That was pure baiting.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:03 pm

erik, the mistake that you're making is that you think it's a Troll you're feeding.

When in reality, the creature in question is pretty obvious. It's something that looks vaguely like a treasure chest, but is just an other stupid Mimic you either ignore, or have to kill.

If it was a Ragnarok Online mimic, it wouldn't be that big of a deal, since you can round up a bunch of them, and kill them with a single special attack. Unfortunately, the creature in question is more like a Dark Souls mimic; and takes a concentrated effort to defeat.

I will have to admit, that the Mimic's suggestion that I could distill my Fighter's Bastard Sword attacks into a potion; and then throw said potions at enemies do deal 1d10+Bonuses damage is pretty rad.

Perhaps Fighter's Potions give the awesome power of being able to wield Martial weapons, light/medium/heavy Armour, and Shields (and Tower Shields); while an Advanced Fighter Potion allows the user to have the greetest of a Fighter's powers, extra proficiency points in a weapon; or Fighter Bonus Feats if you're a new-school hater of terrible 1980's Wargamey D&D.

Obviously, Rogues could make "Sneak Attack" potions, which would give the quaffing adventurer have that amount of bonus precision damage. Obviously, Hiding, Trapfinding, and other abilities would be separate potions.

Paladin potions could give a variety of powers; such as pouring out a noble steed; giving the drinker the ability to piss Holy Water; allowing the drinker to "not have to use the bathroom" (but have to take a System Shock test 1/year); or any of the other stupid bullshit powers Paladins could have in 2e.

Maybe Elf potions give the user the ability to Multiclass; or have Ultravision. While Dwarf potions remove the user's ability to use, or be affected, by poncy magics.

Those sounds like super good ideas, and a great way to Play da Game.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:43 pm

I actually kind of like the idea of Holy Piss being just a side effect of Paladin potions in general...

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:43 am

Judging__Eagle wrote:that I could distill my Fighter's Bastard Sword attacks into a potion; and then throw said potions at enemies do deal 1d10+Bonuses damage is pretty rad.

No, that would be a bit stupid thematically, because you are trying to turn a sword into a potion. more to the point it would be giving the caster a potion that could give him attacks like a fighter or the number a fighter has or whatever. or just a speed potion that doubles or triples the number of attacks a fighter could make.

this is what alchemy is about, changing the properties of things. but being in potion form, would mean it would be of limited use and when the potion burns out, then the effects were off.

take that weird modern nonsense such as "perception". drinking a potion could make your sense so acute to some things for X amount of time you could NEVER possible fail a perception check, almost like ESP or ye old elf and secret doors type of sense.

yes potions and scrolls are wizard on demand, but they have their own limits. potions are subject to expiring over time, they must be carried in something that could break or spill, etc. as long as you have in place those checks to prevent them from being abused, then they can add a lot to the game. sadly the game has always forbid it because DA RULES.

paladin in a bottle? sure drink it and you are immune to disease for a day. consider it like a vaccine with short term affects.

with such things ir would buck the entire D&D system because you could create a strange new setting (with 3 moons like Krynn, or few metal items like Athas, or space travel like Spellhammer) where wizards never existed. potions are able to be made by the common man with practice so these feats could be performed by anyone. need to build a castle in a land without wizards and want it done fast? drink of levitation potion and several people can heft boulders into place to form the walls for a short amount of time. want to entertain at a fair or bazaar? drink a fire-breathing potion and for a few hours you are able to breath like a dragon and not take damage from the flames.

potions and such were removed from the game because, classes. the cleric needed something to do so instead of promote potions of healing and such further as D&D grew older, they just turned a class into a walking-med kit. just uncover and start sucking either the cleric, or your potion of healing.

everything that could be done with magic, could be done with a potion. Gary likes wizards. having potions do the same thing means less NEED for wizards, or Gary... ergo... potions/elixirs/poultices got thrown to the wayside.

because the rules of the past 3 decades have not include much in the way of potions or their use, then everyone has forgotten them, and nobody allows their use because they are not in DA RULES.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:46 am

So right now I'm thinking DC10 for 1st and 0th level potions, 15 for 2nd and 20 for third.

This is basic, but I also have another idea about divorcing potions entirely from spell effects, and running it with a different method of determining what a potion does. Maybe based on spending your skill ranks on a potion.

Like it takes one rank to make a 5hp potion so a 1st level character can make 20hp healing potions. Buffing effects cost more.

AndreiChekov · Post by **AndreiChekov** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:31 am

What about DC X + spell level? much easier to remember, and if you are limiting the highest level spell that can be made with them, then there isn't a problem of it being to easy to get a spell.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:56 am

... you know that the skill system is pretty fucked right? As in, the inputs and outputs aren't level appropriate at all? And you want to tie items that are appropriate for some level to that system as is? Really?

People will take 20 and buy masterwork tools and cheap as free magic boosters and whatever else they to get to be able to pump out top level potions levels before the casters could craft them via feat. They will. If you want that, own it at the start. If you don't, consider dropping serious restrictions on this that aren't DC based (which will be weird, because nothing else does it), or restrict it to mundane-ish items that you don't care about people exploiting.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:11 am

So make it simply level based?

DC15+spell level.

Can't make spells above level. I'm still limiting it to 3rd level spells maximum, unless there's some pressing reason that I shouldn't.

Honestly the DC doesn't seem like it matters much.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:43 am

If you're limiting it to spells a wizard of your level could cast, why use the skill system at all?

EDIT: Also, it should probably be at least +2x{spell level}, unless you're designing this for cross-classers.

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:48 am

I don't think there would be a huge problem allowing alchemy to be used to brew potions and ditching the feat. I'd probably use Pathfinders item creation rolls for the DC (along with letting people ignore spell prereqs for +5 DC, which allows noncasters to get in on brewing).

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:59 pm

Rather than let craft (alchemy) be the one lone skill with a bunch of weirdness attached to it, lean on the old 3.x stand by. Fucking make it a feat already, or fix the crappy one in this case. Here's a start that may well be terrible because I haven't put that much thought into it.

Initial change - Alchemy is not a caster only skill. Rogues can distill their own acids. Whatever, no one cares.

Alchemical MacGuyver [Skill: Craft(Alchemy)]
Rank 0: When you craft alchemical items, progress per week is measured in gold pieces and progress per day is measured in silver pieces. You never waste materials during crafting, even when you fail by 5 or more.
Rank 4: Select either the wizard list or the cleric and druid lists to make potions from. When brewing potions from this list you have an effective caster level equal to your Craft (Alchemy) ranks -3. These potions are crafted with the normal potion crafting rules, but you must succeed at a crafting check DC 20 + caster level or the attempt fails.
Rank 9: With some twine, spit, dust, whatever else is laying around, and a one minute montage you may benefit from a limited form of minor creation. You may only create mundane alchemical items with this ability, and must succeed at a crafting check against the item's normal creation DC + 5. You may create 4 items per Craft (Alchemy) rank per day with this ability, creating as many items in that one minute montage as you like so long as it would not cause you to exceed your daily limit. Each item created in this way degrades to uselessness after a number of hours equal to your ranks.
Rank 14: You may now create potions with your limited minor creation. You also gain the benefits of the Augmented Alchemy feat, though improved items only have a +10 DC and are only 3x the normal price. You're probably wishing for them already anyway though. You can also transmute lead into an equivalent mass of gold (or the other way around) with 1 week of work, because no one cares.
Rank 19: You've learned ridiculous alchemical secrets. You may craft items that inflict animal growth, baleful polymorph, flesh to stone, or transformation on a target. These admixtures are unstable, however, and must be administered by you or they have no effect. You may create these during downtime and maintain up to four of them at any one time, additional secret alchemy admixtures lose their potency.

AndreiChekov · Post by **AndreiChekov** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:12 am

The Capstone is pretty bad, but the rest of the feat is cool.

How about anyone can apply the potion at rank 19, but keep the 4 limit or whatever. And add Tome polymorph to the list, because that is cool.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:42 pm

Yeah, the cap is missing a few things (effect DCs / CL, should probably have a different list for wiz and clr/drd (incl revivify), maybe 5 total options, etc.) and could be improved. The goal was to give it something like the assassin's exotic methods, but with a bit more flexibility. It might be better with something else entirely honestly, that was just where my 10 minutes of thought on it started giving out.

AndreiChekov · Post by **AndreiChekov** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:26 pm

I will take some time to really look at this and do some math 'n stuff. And this should probably be moved to IMOI now.

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Alchemy Skill?

Alchemy Skill?

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