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Election 2016
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I misread and am sorry for that. Not just generally for misreading something, but specifically because there's is a chance, however small, that this new weird stupid tangent wouldn't have happened. We could have maybe avoided a post by maglag and a post by PL. We can never know now.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I forget, was Ant an experiment in seeing if Koumei's drawings could be more intelligent than PL specifically? Or maybe it was Shadzar?
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tussock
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSMatticus wrote:
For example, Obama has admitted that it was a mistake not to get more involved in crafting a Libyan government post-Gaddafi. Of course, if Obama had gotten involved in government-crafting post-Gaddafi, sure we might have ended up with a stabler region, but you would still be here bitching about U.S. imperialism.


I want to talk about this.

See, the real problem with Bush2, aside from believing their own lies and stuff, which leads into the real problem, if you will ... anyway, it's that they didn't do nation building. At all. Zero plan for that, took all the warnings about how things would turn to shit if they just sacked all the government in Iraq and just sacked all the government people in Iraq and profited like crazy off the ensuing shit. To the extent of blowing up hospitals so their pet companies could profit from building hospitals, which turned out to be not fit for purpose in many cases, because more profit that way. It's terrible on so many levels.

Which is exactly what Imperialism is and does, both historically, and now, and why people hate on it. It's the moving in and ruling over without providing the usual protections of the modern state for the locals, and instead just protecting the invading corporate bodies.

Like the TPPA. Where corporate bodies would get to sue governments for trying to protect the local people or the environment, or for doing anything at all that interfered with profits. That's not using wars to get there, but the end result is still Imperialism.


But the thing with Obama, he doesn't even have that. Not only is there no nation-building, like in Germany and Japan after WWII, he's supported random fucking guys with guns to overthrow local government and judicial systems and not even making bank off it for some company. It's just, LOL, random guys with guns might be better than that government because that government is bad (and also not supporting our oil companies, coincidence though).

But that never works. It's like, the bad bits of the war and bombing, almost none of the profits, certainly no nation building because that shit is expensive, and so ... just LOL, random fanatic militias might be better than a dictator, just bomb and hope for the best (also our oil companies got back in, coincidence though).

But fanatic militias that took over countries, the history there is super bad. Pol Pot bad. That's not a good plan.


Also, if you let North Vietnam win, they South Vietnamese will forever be caught in absolute misery and poverty and ... oh, wait, that's not, huh. Funny their war ended so they got on with being a better place to live after a while, because without a constant enemy at the door you just have to. Or it's random and who the fuck knows.
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Shatner
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Can this tangent be moved to its own thread? Pretty please?
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Whipstitch
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:
If super genius kaelik gets to say the USA are the "relative" gud guyz , then yes I get to say Russia and China "mostly" (not fully) keep to their borders because they don't fund terrorist groups all over the globe neither engulf multiple adjacent countries in civil wars that rage for years.


So, you're saying that Kaelik's statement is super dumb and therefore you get to make a super dumb argument as well, right? Because that's pretty much the only way what you're saying even begins to check out.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Whipstitch wrote:
maglag wrote:
If super genius kaelik gets to say the USA are the "relative" gud guyz , then yes I get to say Russia and China "mostly" (not fully) keep to their borders because they don't fund terrorist groups all over the globe neither engulf multiple adjacent countries in civil wars that rage for years.


So, you're saying that Kaelik's statement is super dumb and therefore you get to make a super dumb argument as well, right? Because that's pretty much the only way what you're saying even begins to check out.


I like how his super dumb argument still fails even accepting relativeness scale, and as you know, see all my previous comments about what I said.
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:

Funny that you complain about Russia and China in specific, because those are both the countries that for hundreds of years have mostly been happy to keep to their borders.


I expect to find stupidity every time I browse the internet. It is still shocking to me that anyone functionally capable of typing words using a keyboard could have said anything as stupid as this.

I'd like to make this easy for you, so here are maps of Russia starting in 1533. I'd like you to explain what period of 'hundreds of years' you think they've been staying in their borders:

Russia, 1533-1914, expansion in Asia

You'll note that the map starts in 1533. It color codes expansion by the following years: by 1598 (~60 years); by 1689 (~90 years); by 1801 (112 years); by 1855 (54 years); by 1914 (59 years).

Now, even assuming that the expansion happened in a single day on the dates listed, none of those periods qualify as 'hundreds of years'.

I hope you know about Soviet Expansion particularly after WWII (but remember, they invaded Poland even before they were invaded by Germany). If you don't know about it, it's not hard to find. Maybe start with Czechoslovakia.

And of course, there is the recent annexation of Crimea. It's not like Russia didn't recognize it as a separate country for decades (note the plural implies more than one, unlike your use of 'hundreds').

The only way you could reach the conclusion you have is you assume that all territory currently controlled by Russia was ALWAYS THEIRS and somebody else just happened to be controlling it illegally. And if you use that definition, then there is no such thing as conquest or invasion - just eviction of squatters.

I think you should retract what you said and APOLOGIZE for bringing so much stupid to this conversation. Please.

And don't try to double-down on China. We can go through the whole thing again with them if you like.
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:
Funny that you complain about Russia and China in specific, because those are both the countries that for hundreds of years have mostly been happy to keep to their borders.

maglag wrote:
If super genius kaelik gets to say the USA are the "relative" gud guyz , then yes I get to say Russia and China "mostly" (not fully) keep to their borders because they don't fund terrorist groups all over the globe neither engulf multiple adjacent countries in civil wars that rage for years.

I suspect that when the day comes you accidentally touch a history book - or even a mildly informative wikipedia article - your body will reject it and burst explosively into flame, like a vampire caught in the noon sun, or antimatter colliding with its opposite. The stuff you are made of is not merely wrong, but so egregiously, aggressively wrong that it is antithetical to fact. The two cannot exist in the same space.

tussock wrote:
Also, if you let North Vietnam win, they South Vietnamese will forever be caught in absolute misery and poverty and ... oh, wait, that's not, huh. Funny their war ended so they got on with being a better place to live after a while, because without a constant enemy at the door you just have to. Or it's random and who the fuck knows.

GDP's per capita, according to the CIA World Factbook:
North Korea: ~2000 USD
Vietnam: ~6000 USD
South Korea: ~36,000 USD

Here, let me make a handy diagram for you (to scale!):
Code:
0 N   V                             S


If it makes you feel better, life expectancy is a little nicer to you. Vietnam's smack in the middle of the two.

tussock wrote:
But fanatic militias that took over countries, the history there is super bad. Pol Pot bad. That's not a good plan.

I feel the need to point out that "fanatically ideoloigical militias sponsored by foreign powers overthrow local government" is a description of the American Revolution.

When you say shit like "but that never works," I am going to have to ask you what you think the goal of the U.S. intervention was, what that goal should have been, and how that goal could have been better accomplished. To be blunt, everytime one of you fuckheads talks about the latest round of bullshit in the Middle East, my suspicion grows that you don't even really have the basic primer on "what the fuck happened," and I feel increasing compelled to just ask you to talk about it and watch you fumble that fucking ball like your fingers are made of lukewarm butter.

So talk, please. The U.S. did a thing. There are other things the U.S. could have done. What should those things have been? What would have happened had the U.S. done those things?
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Shatner
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trump picks Rick Perry as Energy Secretary.

First off, as a liberal Texan, I am saddened to see Perry getting any attention that isn't open mockery. However, this pick is especially funny/sad because, you may recall, during Rick Perry's fumbled presidential bid he couldn't recall the names of all the departments he wanted to cut. The name he forgot was the Department of Energy. It's like the Blue Fairy took an Onion article that was considered too far-fetched to print and made it a real headline.


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Koumei
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSMatticus wrote:

I feel the need to point out that "fanatically ideoloigical militias sponsored by foreign powers overthrow local government" is a description of the American Revolution.


Yes and we can all agree that was a terrible idea and should be avoided in future.



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Quote:
So talk, please. The U.S. did a thing. There are other things the U.S. could have done. What should those things have been? What would have happened had the U.S. done those things?


The US is pretty much in a position where whether they intervene at all or not at all, if the results are anything short of the Star Trek Federation then it was a terrible plan and the wrong choice was made. People want a really simple answer like it's a game of Civ where you have all the information and can calculate odds.
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fbmf
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shatner wrote:
Can this tangent be moved to its own thread? Pretty please?


Someone would need to define where the tangent began...

Game On,
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Pixels
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Not sure it matters at this point. I think a large reason we got on this tangent is that the topic of the election is more-or-less exhausted. Unless something explosive happens in the electoral college (unlikely), it's over.
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Shatner
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

fbmf wrote:
Shatner wrote:
Can this tangent be moved to its own thread? Pretty please?


Someone would need to define where the tangent began...

Game On,
fbmf

I'd say the split from "Russia had a hand in the 2016 election, let's talk about that" to "U.S. and Russia: Cold War Discussion" started here. However, if the whole thing has died down then I guess there's no need to split it off; this is the Den and temporary tangents into geopolitics and name-calling are par for the course regardless of the thread.
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Josh_Kablack
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well with Ryan and McConnell saying that there needs to be an investigation into this whole Russian hacking thing, I would think that the odds of an Electoral College oddity just increased.

But I still find it far more likely that this is the establishment Repulicans laying groundwork for a future scandal-on-demand they can exploit to win points in future disagreements with the Emperor.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Josh_Kablack wrote:
Well with Ryan and McConnell saying that there needs to be an investigation into this whole Russian hacking thing, I would think that the odds of an Electoral College oddity just increased.

But I still find it far more likely that this is the establishment Repulicans laying groundwork for a future scandal-on-demand they can exploit to win points in future disagreements with the Emperor.


I mean, Ryan still has not actually said that there needs to be an investigation. Despite the media reporting it that way. He has hedged literally as hard as it is possible to hedge, and when he does tentatively support it, he's going to try to insist it goes through the existing committee that he can kill it from.

Mitch also is clearly just aware that between his wife and him fighting it before the election, he just needs to look just barely clean enough that when they inevitably have to find a scapegoat or three, he isn't on the list.
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Mechalich
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an electoral college oddity, I would be very surprised if it was sufficient to swing the results. Too many electors have to change their votes to deny Trump a majority (throwing the election to the House where the Republican majority would hopefully pick some non-Trump alternative like Kasich or Romney). It's just not plausible. A handful of electors choosing to cast their votes for someone like Kasich or Romney and thereby spitting in Trump's electoral face is much more plausible. Unfortunately it wouldn't actually mean anything, except that it might make Republicans a smidgen more willing to work towards ending the damn electoral college.

Josh_Kablack wrote:
But I still find it far more likely that this is the establishment Repulicans laying groundwork for a future scandal-on-demand they can exploit to win points in future disagreements with the Emperor.


I think a lot of Republicans, especially Ryan, are waiting to see just how far they can manipulate Trump - who did make promises to do things they strongly oppose like never cut Social Security - before they decide what, ultimately, they are going to do. Banking some scandals-in-waiting is useful if Trump proves recalcitrant (or just plain nuts) and they need to quietly threaten him into compliance later on.

The Republicans clearly don't care much about Trump indulging in his kleptocratic tendencies, but I suppose we'll have to see which of his policies (or lack thereof) they do care about.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSMatticus wrote:

So talk, please. The U.S. did a thing. There are other things the U.S. could have done. What should those things have been? What would have happened had the U.S. done those things?


Considering the amount of shit the USA did, that would be something that would take hundreds/thousands of pages and months/years of writing, and that's from a very optimistic calculation.

But as a starter:
-In our current reality the USA increasingly supports crazy fanatic people that love to blow themselves up all over the world, treat women as objects and destroy everything at hand's range.
-In an alternate reality, the USA does not support the above, and instead uses their own troops when they want shit done for their interests.
-Shit still happens, but at least the USA should have an interest in
1-making sure their military aren't shooting each other.
2-Play somewhat nicer so the locals don't decide to shoot them back, since the USA cares more about their own troops lives whereas crazy sand people are completely expendable.
3-When the USA's objectives have been completed (or they decide it's not worth it anymore), then the USA would take care to evacuate their trained murderers, instead of leaving them behind so they keep killing and maiming for months/years/decades, forming new death cults that spread to fuck up shit all over the world.

Bonus: The USA only invades other countries if they have an actual after-war plans about what to do to create a new law enforcement if they succeed to crush the local government.

It's quite possible that despite losing troops, total USA casualities are less because there will be no planes highjacked against their towers and drastically less suicide attacks in USA soil.

However, there will be less profit for the USA's weapon's industry, and other countries will have an easier time developing and becoming more competitive. It would be a net positive for not-USA countries, but a loss for the USA rulers.
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:

Considering the amount of shit the USA did


Nope - you don't get to start laying out your new thesis until you admit how wrong you were regarding Russia's territorial expansion. That's all you have to do. Is it so hard? I mean, considering that the facts are clearly available and require no interpretation. I mean, you are capable of admitting that you are wrong, right?

Or do you want to specify which 200+ year period you were talking about where Russia has 'generally kept to it's borders'?
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:
Considering the amount of shit the USA did, that would be something that would take hundreds/thousands of pages and months/years of writing, and that's from a very optimistic calculation.

I like how from the word "go" you are trying to weasel your way out of this.

I like how your post mentions Libya, Syria, Gaddafi, Assad, or any specific place or person in the middle east a combined total of zero times.

I like how I was completely right about you and when pressed you would have nothing - quite literally and not at all figuratively - nothing to offer on the topic.

Why did you take the bait if you were just going to immediately choke on it? Normally people have some kind of game plan when they deliberately walk into a trap. Indiana Jones does not tank poison darts with his face.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think maglag posts to be right about anything. He just is trying to score points for... I don't really know. I figure it's like shad, or Tzor, or Occluded (etc), who don't really care about pesky things like details. They believe that they have a point, make it, and no matter how thoroughly their points are dismantled they made it. Counter arguments be damned.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

We should have supported Assad.

Would it have bee a good thing to do? Fuck no. Assad is a mass-murdering asshole.

But it would have been the right thing to do, because an evil dictatorship is better than anarchy, and we can sacrifice our morality for stability.

Obama's problem, Bush II's problem, was an unwillingness to sacrifice morality. They had different perspectives, but ultimately the same problem, they believed themselves to be the good guys, and sought to make the good choice, in a world where the morally good choice is often the one that gets the most people killed.

Bush I was willing to compromise his morality by letting Sadam go and abandoning the rebels he had previously encouraged. And it turns out, in hindsight, that this was the correct call. It's also one of the reasons he wasn't reelected.


People like action movies. The good guys kill the bad guys, and everyone lives happily ever after, until the sequal. It's a really great, comforting, story, that you can solve all the world's problems just by killing all the bad people.

Lots of people ascribe to this, because it's so comforting. Hitler did. His definition of bad guy was rather sweeping and we condemn him for that, but we still embrace his logic, just more selectively, terrorists and dictators, instead of Jews.

Bush ascribed to this logic, thus the Iraq war and the clusterfuck of an occupation that followed.

Obama ascribes to this logic, thus drone strikes, which are supposed to only kill the bad guys.

It doesn't work.

It doesn't work because it the end of the day there are no bad guys and no good guys, just guys who happen to be on different sides, many of whom buy into delusional heroic morality in which it is necessary to oppose evil, and define evil as those other guys.

In the end, we need Presidents who was willing to embrace evil. Because, it turns out that we don't live in Star Wars. We live in Spaceballs. And Good is Dumb.
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erik
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hyzmarca, everything you said is monstrous and wrong in equal measure. I feel like you're trying to troll by channeling Occluded Sun.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

*/
erik wrote:
Hyzmarca, everything you said is monstrous and wrong in equal measure. I feel like you're trying to troll by channeling Occluded Sun.


I'm pretty sure that killing all the Jews will not, in fact, make Europe into a perfect Utopia.

I'm also pretty sure that killing all the terrorists will not, in fact, make the Middle East into a perfect Utopia.

I'm also pretty sure that destroying functional governments and replacing them dozens of rival gangs that hate each other about as much as they hated the government will not create a Utopia, and just might make things worse.


Even the most brutal totalitarian dictatorships are several rungs above pre-feudal warlordism on the quality of life and personal safety ladders.

That really shouldn't be a controversial opinion.
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Shatner
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ack! fbmf, it came back. Kill it with fire! Please consider moving the tangent to it's own thread.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mechalich wrote:


I think a lot of Republicans, especially Ryan, are waiting to see just how far they can manipulate Trump - who did make promises to do things they strongly oppose like never cut Social Security - before they decide what, ultimately, they are going to do..


Trump is easy to manipulate if you can flatter his ego, lead him the right way.

The problem is he'll spread his cheeks for whoever else is willing to sweet talk, so he won't stay manipulated.
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