After Sundown Expansion Material

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erik
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Post by erik »

Midnight_v wrote:devotions in general need to be made easier to get into. That way people can just plop it on their sheet, so if they want to be a "melee type" it isn't even a thing.
I think the devotion category is getting dumped in v2 and the powers are getting rolled into Advanced Universals. War Form is a good fit as an advanced Clout power and not hard to get into as such.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

fectin wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:Or like in the boxer uprising where they got possesed by spirits to make them bullet proof.
wat.

I assume this is a movie reference?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion
http://www.amazon.com/Boxers-Saints-Gen ... 1596433590
The Boxers' primary feature was spirit possession, which involved "the whirling of swords, violent prostrations, and chanting incantations to Taoist and Buddhist spirits."[3]

The excitement and moral force of these possession rituals was especially attractive to unemployed and powerless village men, many of whom were teenagers.[4] The Boxers believed that through training, diet, martial arts and prayer they could perform extraordinary feats, such as flight. Furthermore, they popularly claimed that millions of spirit soldiers would descend from the heavens and assist them in purifying China of foreign influences.[5] The Boxers, armed with rifles and swords, claimed supernatural invulnerability towards blows of cannon, rifle shots, and knife attacks. The Boxer beliefs were characteristic of millenarian movements, related to such practices as the Native American Ghost Dance, another practice of a society under stress.[6]
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Post by name_here »

OgreBattle wrote:What would a Fox Spirit or Tanuki be in After Sundown?

Also what would be the power source for kungfu, like in the movies where they go punch vampires to death. Or like in the boxer uprising where they got possesed by spirits to make them bullet proof.
1. "Not a player character", I would think. Firstly, never been human and were never confused on that point. Secondly, they don't really fit the horror tone as viewpoint characters. Fox Spirits screw with people because it's funny instead of having some deep tragic motive. Fey is probably the best existing fit.

2. Probably Astral
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Post by Username17 »

OgreBattle wrote:What would a Fox Spirit or Tanuki be in After Sundown?
Tanuki as such do not exist. Japan gets tapped for a couple of monsters, the Nezumi, the Oni, and in 2nd edition the Tengu all make appearances. Not every Yokai makes the cut, and racoon dog testicle-based shapeshifters are a pretty easy choice for things to not include. They are a figure of raunchy comedy rather than horror per se, and honestly have no place in the genre.

Fox Spirits... well that's a giant kettle of worms. Depending on what you mean by "fox spirit." Your furry sex ninja version of Fox Spirit straight up doesn't exist. Werewolves can be kind of like that, but their monster form is big and clawed and not a petite yet startlingly big boobed anthro. Your "fox wife" scenario could be a witch or a fairy or even an android or ghost, depending on the version you're running with. Form of Beasts is not a difficult piece of magic for a character to have, and an actual fox form can be grafted on to anything. The rampaging Naruto-style beast would probably be a Chimera or in 2nd edition, a Hell Hound.
Also what would be the power source for kungfu, like in the movies where they go punch vampires to death. Or like in the boxer uprising where they got possesed by spirits to make them bullet proof.
Probably just Reborn. Past life ass kickers who move at super speed.

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Post by Whipstitch »

@Midnight_v

I was being belligerent. Within this thread you come across as being against everything forever and your initial response to war forms was "Why the hell does a black widow need a War Form?", which hit me as borderline disingenuous given that other posts in this thread indicate that you know what a jorōgumo is. At that point, it becomes super easy to believe that you're going to object to anything that comes across as a reach and that you have high standards for determining such. I get why you're annoyed, but ultimately I have a really hard time caring because your entire first post is amounts to warning us to expect an argument from you.

Anyway, as far as type goes, all I really care about is that spider monsters retain a Feeding schedule. Having an inherently predatory nature is central to the concept, which is why I find it sort of weird that Asura kept getting mentioned despite being the only extant Demon without a feeding schedule. For the most part though I favor Frank's duck criteria over other methods of categorizing monsters. Whenever you investigate old mythology, one of the first things that leaps out at you is that words like "yokai" or "faerie" roughly translate out to "Fuck if I know what it is."
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Post by Prak »

Midnight_v wrote:The rest of my question was answered by Frank, which is "What myths are being drawn on, and why vampires, instead of a possibly more applicable supernatural type i.e. demons.
He actually did:
FrankTrollman wrote:Anyway, the actual Vampire Spider is a real thing and it lives in East Africa. Also, African spider monsters are about the only place I've found where spider people come in both sexes. So when it comes to placing spider vampires in the world, East Africa is a pretty reasonable place.
As to why Vampires-
Well, in myths there really isn't a difference between Were-spiders, spider demons, spider vampires, and spider sorcerers. All those terms are pretty much interchangeable. When we get to the post-Dungeons & Dragons era, there comes a desire to actually distinguish things into groups - not the least so that people can interact with things on the level of fanfiction (or an RPG) by having classes of things with consistent rules of storytelling.
Pair this with the above and you have "hey, Africa had spider monsters in myth. We should totally make those" "Ok, what type are they? Are they demons?" "Well, in myth there isn't a lot of distinction between vampire/demon/witch/shapeshifter, but East Africa also has a species of spider that subsists purely on actual blood called a vampire spider, so let's make them vampires."
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Post by Midnight_v »

Prak Anima. I just said "Thanks Frank" in my last post. There's a lot of text here so I'll assume your just skimming, but thats a prettey nice recap of the answer so, thanks.

@WhipStitch
I was being belligerent.
Ok cool, then stop, and lets just move on.
I get why you're annoyed, but ultimately I have a really hard time caring because your entire first post is amounts to warning us to expect an argument from you.
Or... you can totally put me on ignore, cause I mean... fuck you *shrug*. Its not like I'm complaining about nothing or trolling cause I hate whatever it is you like. Its not even about you, to be honest I didn't even know you existed before this thread, its about a clear and consistent game world.
Its important to me so I'm going to leave comments in an attempt to help with that, and get a clear picture of where this is going since After Sundown is a game that I give two shits about. The main thing I wanted to know was why the sudden departure from the exclusions in the main book etc etc. . .
The rest of its basically me saying "don't do it like WW" before people start bringing up selkie brides and the such. . . at which point its barely horror anymore. Its your call. I'm going to ask questions and discuss things that are relevant to me. Even at all this I'm not even pissed at you, I'm just moving on to something more relevant things. Vampire Spiders are in so I'm going to go talk about transhumans or witches or something. No hard feelings. M_V
Also what would be the power source for kungfu, like in the movies where they go punch vampires to death. Or like in the boxer uprising where they got possesed by spirits to make them bullet proof.


Probably just Reborn. Past life ass kickers who move at super speed.

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I'd been playing it like that myself, but as an alternative you could also make have Baali Witchcraft be the culprit for Ken and Ryu types: Hadoken

I mean Shaolin Ghost hunters, and Yamabushi could both be traditions passed down, for humans to "do it like Marduk did". Even if you have to buy Celerity, and Skin of Marble with your free powers.

The reborn work really really well because Buddhism already has reincarnation beliefs going on anyway. So there are options to how you want to do it.
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Post by Grek »

That brings up a question: Can creatures with a feeding power schedule regain power through self-harm? Let's assume we have a Baali who is sitting around his secret lair and in need of some extra power points. As a starting character who's specialized in weird medical experiments and burning things to a crisp, he has a Logic of 4, a Medicine of 6, specialization in treating burns and +2 to Medicine from knowing Path of Blood sorceries. His secret laboratory counts as Awesome conditions for treating burns. Can he brand magic runes into his flesh (dealing 5 lethal wounds) to gain 5 power points and then buy 4 hits on his First Aid test to automagically heal 3 of those wounds and have the remaining 2 heal up by the next day?
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Post by DSMatticus »

Whipstitch wrote:Whenever you investigate old mythology, one of the first things that leaps out at you is that words like "yokai" or "faerie" roughly translate out to "Fuck if I know what it is."
This is super very true. When you start quibbling about whether or not a creature from an old Japanese folktale or whatever should be a vampire or a demon, you are appealing to a distinction that does not exist in the original folklore. Trying to apply modern western monster taxonomy to ancient Japanese folklore is silly. We use demon as a translation because it's our least specific word for "at least somewhat malicious supernatural entity," not because it reflects an analogous distinction that already exists in the source material.

After Sundown, in its effort to take mythological creatures from multiple cultures and divide them into a handful of discrete categories using western terminology, must be willing to apply more specific labels than translators, or else literally everything that doesn't come out of Europe gets the demon label. And "seductive creature who deceives mortals in order to feed on their blood and viscera" is very much a vampire.
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Post by Dean »

I too would like to mention, belatedly perhaps, that I don't think the flavor of Shark-men is in line with the rest of the fiction After Sundown is trying to replicate. The only images I can garner, mentally or from internet searches, are of hulking comic book style characters who seem more like a 12 year olds wet dream than anything internally haunted and terrifying.

After Werewolves and Tigermen I think the animal-man with the most cultural traction is probably the Goat man/Beast man archetype. A horned hulking beast man character wouldn't deviate from the Lycanthrope character concept of getting ugly and beating up everybody. It does have connections to concepts of uncontrollable lust and mans inner beast and whatnot so you are well within your rights to decide to exclude it based solely on not wanting characters focused on bestial sexy-times. It's also reasonable to say it doesn't add much to the space that a re-themed Werewolf or Zhu wouldn't add. Still I think as a concept "Goat Man" would be more likely to improve the playspace than "Shark Man". Which I too see as a worse flavor of the Deep One concept who's inclusion weakens both of their conceptual power.
Last edited by Dean on Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Blicero »

All this looks really neat so far. I dig the new proposed splats. A couple of things to consider if you're doing a second edition:

1. Example adventures. Whenever I think about running an After Sundown game, I get excited about making characters, but then I kind of stall in the "what will actually happen in this game?" stage.

2. Fancy names. One thing I think sort of got lost in the transition from aWoD to AS was the florid language. I'll admit that White Wolf's language often tended toward purple prose and pretentious wankery. But I still think that names like "Black Spiral Dancers" or "Obfuscation" are infinitely more evocative and setting-appropriate than "the Wreckers" or "Veil".

3. Timeframe. This might require extensive rewrites of the setting fluff. But I feel that the viability of the game setting might be enhanced if the internal clock gets turned back a few decades. Cold War technology eliminates the need to handwave in the inefficacy of cellphones and shit. And the general paranoia and fear of the Other in this era enhances the possibility for personal horror and government conspiracies.

4. Other worlds. As someone else mentioned, a section like "Top Ten Reasons to Go to Limbo" would be sorely appreciated.

5. Is the combat minigame likely to be made any deeper? I realize that combat is not meant to be the focus of After Sundown. But when I ran it, we all found combat kind of boring, but not necessarily quick to resolve or easy to recover from.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Blicero wrote:1. Example adventures. Whenever I think about running an After Sundown game, I get excited about making characters, but then I kind of stall in the "what will actually happen in this game?" stage.

5. Is the combat minigame likely to be made any deeper? I realize that combat is not meant to be the focus of After Sundown. But when I ran it, we all found combat kind of boring, but not necessarily quick to resolve or easy to recover from.
Both of these things are big for me too. I would very much appreciate, at the very least, a section on how to do it right.
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Post by Lokathor »

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XBe ... k0GoI/edit

Here's my big list of cliff notes from the last topic.

If anything catches your eyes to expand on and post stuff I guess folks should feel free to go ahead and do that.
3. Timeframe. This might require extensive rewrites of the setting fluff. But I feel that the viability of the game setting might be enhanced if the internal clock gets turned back a few decades. Cold War technology eliminates the need to handwave in the inefficacy of cellphones and shit. And the general paranoia and fear of the Other in this era enhances the possibility for personal horror and government conspiracies.
I.... Don't know about this one.

I always play AS games like they're in the last 90s or early 00s. Like they're happening in 199X or something. Basically like they have the tech level of "realistic" TV shows and movies I saw growing up, some of which were already old at the time. Some people have cells phones but they are crappy and always out of power. People transfer around electronic data by passing around CDs. The internet exists, but it's all fringe and half of everyone still uses actual phone-line modems. That sort of stuff is fine for horror.

I mean an expansion pamphlet about "this is how you could set the game in the cold war" would be cool, but using it as the default setting would probably be too much.

5. Is the combat minigame likely to be made any deeper? I realize that combat is not meant to be the focus of After Sundown. But when I ran it, we all found combat kind of boring, but not necessarily quick to resolve or easy to recover from.
I've also had this problem.
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Post by Whipstitch »

I've been one of the louder people when it comes to arguing that an '80s tech level is the sweet spot for a "modern" game that seamlessly allows for classic horror tropes, but I agree that the topic is better served by a few essays on eras of interest rather than trying to forbid anything.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Chamomile »

I strongly oppose the cold war default era, though I'd be more open to a late 90s/early 00s default era. And the reason for that is entirely because I was alive for the latter and just barely missed the former. I don't think that's a bad reason when we're talking horror, though. It is noticeably less scary when you're talking about a dangerous situation that is in modern day a solved problem, and has been a solved problem for the entire life of one or more players. People in 1991 are 22-23 now, which means they are probably a sizable chunk of the potential audience for After Sundown unless it never sees any use outside the Den (and even then, the population in general skews older but there's still a strong minority of people who are 25 or under). For that reason I prefer a default setting of modern day with as few alterations as possible. Your cell phone reception going out in 2014 in some godforsaken swamp/desert while you're surrounded by hostile locals is a much smaller leap of the imagination than the same situation, except you don't have a cell phone at all because the game takes place several years before you were born. Of course it's possible to get immersed in that situation, but it's that much harder to do so.
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Post by Midnight_v »

I have a suggestion to that might fix it.
How about this.

The use of supernatural powers disrupt radio frequencies in general.

I was a multichannel radio operator, and a off time sat com operator when I was in the military. There are a lot of things that can jam signals locally.
There are even literal cell phone jammers, and they are quite illegal in the states because it "Can" fuck up police communications, by producing a signal that overrides those channels in proximity.

The specifics of it can get spelled out if you guys think its a good idea.

Even in real life today, a good chuck of us can still lose our siriusXm signal when we go thorough a tunnel or park in our garrage, right?

So how bout it?
Using universal powers or any of the sorceries screw up frequencies locally.

Its just one of the things that happen when extra-dimensional energies.
Last edited by Midnight_v on Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Whipstitch »

Chamomile wrote:Your cell phone reception going out in 2014 in some godforsaken swamp/desert while you're surrounded by hostile locals is a much smaller leap of the imagination than the same situation, except you don't have a cell phone at all because the game takes place several years before you were born. Of course it's possible to get immersed in that situation, but it's that much harder to do so.
It's a much smaller leap, but it also increases the metagaming overhead and genre lampshading in ways that I'm not entirely fond of. I'm biased though, because although I've had my own cell phone since middle school, I guarantee you that if my brother still gamed with me he'd end up asking his cell phone "Siri, are there monsters now?" every time the group ended up in an area where you're getting less than 3 bars.

Like I said, I'm pretty ambivalent on it, since going retro is something that obviously has its own costs as well and I can definitely see how it's not really worth doing if you're playing with a pack of teenagers.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by virgil »

I think doing modern horror would have to be something closer in design/style to Doubt.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Silent Hill's radio static was cool
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Post by Maxus »

OgreBattle wrote:Silent Hill's radio static was cool
Dresden Files also has spooky stuff mess with technology. It's also a staple of the the Slender Man mythos series. The idea has enough traction I think you could get away with it.

It could also provide the Dresden Reasons as to why the really powerful, old-school monsters, like Dracula or Dagon, don't do technology (and don't get recorded): It's because their mere -presence- screws it up (quite apart from not liking it much).
Last edited by Maxus on Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by name_here »

There's also the conspiracy/Vow Of Silence method, where using your cellphone in dire situations just gets "Your call could not be completed as dialed"
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Post by Prak »

I think it'd be interesting and worthwhile to go into what steps are taken to protect the masquerade as time and technology march on. In the real world, the day pretty much everyone in a developed country had a small camera in their pocket was the day we stopped seeing blurry videos of bigfoot and ufos, but in the world of After Sundown, this technological development would be a huge liability to the masquerade as the number and qualities of videos of the paranormal and supernatural would actually increase (well, unless supernaturals react like LA cops to the presence of camera phone so videos never actually make it to facebook...).

I think it would be feasible to say "large concentrations of other worldly energy, such as demon presence, or supernaturals with a number of Advanced powers, play havoc with telecom tech" so the PCs basically never have working phones, but their adventures take place in a world the players are more immediately familiar with.

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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

Maxus wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:Silent Hill's radio static was cool
Dresden Files also has spooky stuff mess with technology. It's also a staple of the the Slender Man mythos series. The idea has enough traction I think you could get away with it.

It could also provide the Dresden Reasons as to why the really powerful, old-school monsters, like Dracula or Dagon, don't do technology (and don't get recorded): It's because their mere -presence- screws it up (quite apart from not liking it much).
Made me think of:

[quote="After Sundown 1e]Magnets
Astral Sorcery has a noticeable, if weird, affect on magnetic fields. You can track Astral Sorcery and gauge its power with a lodestone. Natural magnetite reacts more strongly than an electro-magnet for whatever reason, so experienced geomancers seriously carry a black rock on a string when they want to find dream sorcerers.[/quote]

---

More generally, "magic messes with technology," is a trope that annoys the fuck out of me, probably for the same reason antimagic fields annoy the fuck out of me.
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Post by Koumei »

I haven't even played AS yet, but would definitely be interested in playing AS Revised. That said, make sure you specify how characters can cook bees.
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Post by Sashi »

Midnight_v wrote:I have a suggestion to that might fix it.
How about this.

The use of supernatural powers disrupt radio frequencies in general.

I was a multichannel radio operator, and a off time sat com operator when I was in the military. There are a lot of things that can jam signals locally.
I kind of hate this suggestion because it adds way too many "can I detect vampires with a Geiger counter?" type questions and is actually too ubiquitous. I'd seriously rather infest the planet with a few different types of vermin that love/hate radio signals and nest in/chew through broadcast sources.

Radio/TV stations would be worth heavily defending, and CB radios would be too mobile for a good infestation, but cell towers are simply too small and numerous to be reliably protected.
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