OSSR AD&D 1e Players Handbook

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darkmaster
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OSSR AD&D 1e Players Handbook

Post by darkmaster »

Before we begin this is the 1980 reprint of the Advanced D&D 1st edition Players Handbook, not player’s or players’ oddly enough, so the handbook dosen’t belong to the players it’s a handbook on players. I don’t know just a weird little thing. From what I can gather the main difference between this and the original volume is the cover art of a wizard casting magic missile at darkness and a pretty orange spine. I say I from what I can gather because I’ve never read these volumes and by never read these volumes I mean I wasn’t alive for the printing of this book. But I was alive at some point in the print run of second edition so you guys have fun trying to guess how old I am.
Image I decided to name that gargoyle darkness for a stupid joke based on a sketch I did in drama. Opening the book up the first point of note is that pages 3-38 have formed an independent state and broken off from the country of spinesia not entirely unexpected given the book’s age, and fixed easily enough with a bit of binder’s glue and some time. But enough quibbling let’s jump into the forward.

This section is, oddly enough, all about the players and how the players make the game and all of this rings a bit hallow considering how DMs were encouraged to act towards players but whatever.
Image Like that yeah.
Next it talks about how the Players Handbook is meant to go along side the Monster Manual and the Dungeon Masters Guide (again no apostrophe) and how the book may SEEM bulky, bulky in this case meaning 126 pages but the font is smaller than a modern book and while there’s a lot of art strew about most of it is fairly small. There are a total of two full page ink drawings in this book and the rest is maybe a third of a page but usually the art on any given page takes up less than a sixth of the space. The forward then ends with some pointers on being a good player and says it’s about time to cut to the chase.

But before the book actually does that the preface, which is separated from the forward by the table of contents, shows up to make sure we don’t do that. I won’t go into too much detail on this or the introduction but something in particular deserves pointing out here.
Gary Gigax wrote:This latter part of the ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS project I approached with no small amount of trepidation. After all, the game's major appeal is to those persons with unusually active imagination and superior, active intellect...
That’s right, AD&D players are the superior gaming master race and all others are simply pretenders, the filth covered masses to be pitied by the true RPG players. Anyway the preface is in three basic sections, the first is about how Gigax is the best person to make final decisions about D&D as the guy who did all the work on making the fantasy RPG genre and I’m genuinely not certain how much of that is hubris and how much is deserved but I’ll be generous and say maybe as little as 60% is hubris. The second is about how despite him being the guy who sets all the base assumptions only the DM and I guess maybe the players if you feel like is(are) the one(s) who make the final decisions but the book gives you all the rules you need. Section three is about how everything was intentional. All the stupid stuff that was left out like stat penalties depending on gender, or overly complex combat were left out on purpose so shut up. But also all the stupid stuff that was put in, like racial stat maximums, dwarves being unable to use magic, limited class levels based on race and stat minimums that’s all in there on purpose too so shut up. That’s right, Gigax had such massive iron coated balls that he purposefully made his game less fun presumably to give later players who would swarm to D&D like a column of proletarian termites to destroy the glory of the game from the inside out a fair chance to feel like they were having fun despite being in every way inferior to what we have already established as the superior gamer master race.
Image No, no, no. Image Yeah, that looks about right. The preface then ends with a very special thanks to everyone who contributed to the making of AD&D and I’m going to say perhaps MORE than 60%. Just a guess. Then the book jumps into the introduction and I cannot be fucked because the first half is about AD&D is different from OD&D and about the mechanical differences from OD&D and how the classes have been rebalanced and I’m just going to use my powers of clairvoyance and say that the “magic-user” class wins everything forever and the second is about how D&D is a WORLD man! and you have to EXPERIENCE it man!

And that’s the introduction. A last point of note, this book does not organize itself into chapters but instead just has headings, so I’m just going to have to kind of try to decide when it’d be a good cut off points would be. If anyone has any suggestions, I’d be glad to hear them.
Last edited by darkmaster on Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by Heisenberg »

More please.
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Post by Maxus »

Agreed. The pictures made me crack up laughing.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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darkmaster
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Post by darkmaster »

I just want to give everybody something of an update, I now have the supplies I need to repair my book, so the update after next will be delayed.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by darkmaster »

The “THE GAME” section could have honestly just been lumped in with the last post I made but I didn’t for a couple reasons. The first is that it is the first listing in the table of headings, but also the theme here is more strongly connected to the next section. This is pretty much the what is an RPG section so we’ll be brief. The section stresses the importance of the Role Playing part of Role Playing Game and how everyone should work together to make a great story in the world but Mister Cavern is always right because it’s his world and he calls the shots and is the only one who can make the game really fun and I use the masculine case because that’s what the book does.

To be fair to the book, Mister Cavern does have a lot of work to do, as the book points out, and it does point out that if something your DM does seems indefensible to you, you can just leave and start your own game, though it does so in a fairly abrasive way. Sort of like it’s calling you an ungreatful prick for walking away just because the DM broke your social contract and transgressed the boundaries of your trust you douchbag. The rest is basically the MST3K mantra so that’s the section and “Creating the Player Character” is mostly waxing lyrical on the four meanings of the word level so we can jump into the actual crunch now.

Character abilities starts with an explanation of the different stats and how the characters need at least two 15s to stand a chance and we will come back to all that because what first catches your eye is the table of strength maximums and minimums that take up the top right fourth of the page and on that note. Gigax you lying sack of shit!
Image Count yourselves lucky School Day's wouldn't make sense in this situation.
Recall if you will the line of my previous post where I talk about there not being stat penalties based on gender? I wasn’t just pulling that out of my ass that was litterally in the preface. And I quote.
You will find no pretentious dictums herein, no baseless limitations placed on female strength or male charisma...
And yet, reading this table what do we find but pointless limitations on female strength. Admittedly there are no limitations on male charisma, but you don’t get a medal for halfway keeping your word. I wouldn’t be so worked up by this but this was literally three pages ago and I’m trying to look at this, since I’m not really familiar with the material, as someone coming to the game for the first time, and if you got roped into the game with promises that the stupid horseshit was cut out of the game and then immediately one of the specific examples of said stupid shit shows up you’d be kinda angry that you paid for the book on that claim. Whatever back to the table, it’s just a list of strength minimums and maximums and strength is... weird. But I will get back to that in strength’s actual paragraph, one thing I will point out here is that fighters actually have the lowest minimum strength of any class with a strength minimum but the highest maximum strength, in fact only fighter characters can reach the maximum strength, unless your race or gender, and god I wish there was a way to deliver my contempt through text, has a lower cap. Which is strange and seems rather counter intuitive as since as we will learn later fighters literally only have their strength going for them, well, almost only their strength, we’ll get there.

Back to the text for now, before we actually get into the section on the stats we we learn that players roll for stats, but the game’s not actually going to tell you how you do that here, because that information is in the Dungeon Master’s manual and as players you don’t need to know how to make player characters until you’re all already gathered around the table ready to play. A little research revealed that some of the methods are kind of insane. One of them is literally 3d6 in order 12 times then take the highest set. But we’re not here for the DMs guide, maybe if I can find a copy that’s not missing a bunch of pages.

Strength is supposedly a combination of strength, endurance, and stamina and if you’re first question is “aren’t stamina and endurance the same thing?” Then we are of a like mind and the answer is, more or less yes. If you look it up in the dictionary there are some minor differences, but they boil down to the same thing. The second thing that popped into my head is that endurance seems more closely linked to Constitution, but that’s just my own personal feelings. The real money here is that a fighter with 16 or more strength gain +10% XP and if a fighter character is lucky enough to get 18 in strength they get to roll a percentile die to determine extraordinary strength. Unless you are a halfling, female eld, half-elf, dwarf, or gnome, then it is impossible for you to have 18 strength, shouldn’t have decided to be such a weakling bucko. Actually, it is unclear if you have to first roll your stats and then decide your character’s race based on what is available, or choose your race and if you roll higher than the maximum for a stat your stat just drops to the max. It is also unclear what happens if your character is a fighter starts with 17 str and belongs to a +strength race or if a character progresses their strength up to 18 somehow or if they get a magic item that gives them 18 strength as long as they have it. More pertinently, it’s not at all clear if rangers and paladins, which are listed as subclasses of fighter are allowed to roll exceptional strength. They have separate minimum strength values listed, so... no? If anyone has a more definitive answer please speak up.

What exceptional strength actually does is provide very minor bonuses to attack, damage, damage, how much you can carry in gold pieces, not gold value, the actually weight of a gold peice, your chances to force open a door*, and to bend bard or lift gates which leads us to this little tidbit.
Strength Table II Adendum wrote:The number in parentheses is the numer of chances out of six for the fighter to be able to force open an locked, barred, magically held, or wizard locked door, but only one attempt ever (per door) may be made, and if it fails no further attempts can succeed.
Image
I genuinely never thought I would ever have cause to use this image unironically.


So let’s just get this fucking straight, you get one, unt exactly one! chance so break a door down and then, what? The door becomes invulnerable to your attempts like it’s fucking Doomsday? Your fighter hurts his shoulder and just gives up? Just- why? I don’t even care about your stupid rule, but why does this happen? What is the explanation in universe? This is like a joke Team Four Star would use in DBZ abridged, in fact it literally is. Not even the facetious interpretation of literally that idiots don’t think count this is a thing that actually happened. I have a friend who finds systems to be chafing and limiting to role playing in general and while I think systems can usually be worked within to come up with the desired result, this- this I think fits the bill. And it’s not just stupid it’s internally incoherent because in the section below explaining how forcing doors work the books says you’re allowed as many attempts as you like with no penalty, so it’s only if you have really high strength (since only 18/91-99 or 18/00 get that)? Or no, I’m being an idiot, that section specifically states it relates to stuck or heavy doors so if the door is actually locked you only get one chance at really low odds which is still fucking stupid but at least it’s consistent. The same one time rule applies to bending bars or lifting a gate and while the example puts the character under time pressure there’s nothing in the rule relating to that so I’m not sure why you can’t just keep trying if time allows, a wizard, sorry MAGIC-USER, did it I guess.

I’m not sure if the other bonuses from strength are any good there’s seriously a +6 difference in to hit between the lowest possible strength and the highest possible strength and a +7 difference in damage, but I’d need to look at the monster manual to see if that’s any good and I don’t have the monster manual. So again if wiser heads than I have the information by all means enlighten me.

Intelligence is much shorter it’s got the racial minimums and maximums but this time most of the races are left out, in fact the only playable race that has a max intelligence is the half-orc at 17. Intelligence works similarly to how it does in 3.5 you get languages and more spells for high int and you need a minimum score for spells of each level above 4th. Unlike later games though you don’t just get two spells per level plus whatever you can find instead every time you go up a spell level or your int goes up or down relatively permanently you roll a percentile dice for every wiz- Spell-Caster spell of that level or just all the spells of every level available to you. This is limited by your maximum spells known which could very well be every spell ever if you have 19 or more int and at 19 you have to roll 95 or lower on your percentile dice to learn a spell so the odds of you having a majority of the spells possible is pretty good. Also if you find a spell book or scroll with a spell you don’t know in it you can learn that way. The game dosen’t say if magic items that buff int are intended to count as sufficiently permanent to warrant rerolling spells, but if so it’d be fairly easy to abuse and that would also imply that that was also the intent for strength.

Wisdom is much the same song and dance except that insead of languages you get a bonus to magical attacks and instead of chance to learn a spell you get a really weak sauce spell failure mechanic. The minimum wisdom for a cleric is 9 and that gives a 20% chance of spell failure but that drops to 5% by 12 and to 0 at 13 so it’s not something a cleric even really cares about. Also, apparently you can only be a thief if you’re wisdom is 5 or lower and the very next section tells us that you can only be a cleric if your dexterity is 5 or lower. So... Gigax really wanted to enforce the clueless thief and clumsy doctor tropes I was not aware existed? Okay this was also a thing with the fighter and wizard in the strength and intelligence tables, but there at least it made a little sense given the genre conventions, and lack of barbarian, even if it felt weird that you couldn’t have a physically weak but mentally strong cleric and stuff. But this feels like it’s there just because the previous tables did.

Image
I was going to make a joke about how sometimes consitency is bad, but I couldn’t find any pictures of people trapped in a non-Newtonian fluid.


Dexterity is noteble for being the only stat other than strength to have a second table. Also Illusionists MUST have 16 dexterity which seems oddly prohibitive. Anyway at first glance It looks like you get an attack bonus and defense penalty for high dex but then I remembered this is AD&D and defense is backwards for no reason. In case your wondering, no the text does nothing to make the table clearer. You add your defense adjustment as a positive modifier to saves if it’s high, but subtract it from your armor and having a three gives you higher armor but that’s bad? Well I know it’s bad but nothing in the text explains this you have to go to the equipment section or combat? Fuck! it’s not even clear where to find the actual rule and they expect you to keep track of your facing in relation to each enemy if you have a shield but we still have constitution, charisma, the races, and the classes to get through before we get to the clusterfuck that is the equipment section and armor rules.

The second Dexterity table gives the bonuses thieves get for high dex they have very small. A thief with 18 dex only gets +10% on everything but trap finding and opening locks and that’s 5% and 15% respectively and you get no bonus for climb, hear noise, or read language. By the way, only thieves can hear noises but we’ll cover why every party must have a thief in every game when we get to classes.

Constitution is basically the same as in later games but with some stupid stuff that has since been removed, much like one would cut out a cancer. Ther’s bonus hit points and save stuff. But only fighters can ever gain more than 2 HP per hit dice from high Con and you have to save not only against effects that are trying to kill you like flesh to stone but also against any spell that changes your body like polymorph. You can get 99% resistance to this, if you have 18 con. Also, your original con is the number of times you can be resurrected you lose 1 con each time and even if your Con gets restored you still don’t get any more resurrections. Also if someone is trying to resurrect you you have to roll a percentile dice and if you roll too high you’re dead forever because fuck you for wanting to continue playing the game you loser. Having 18 con gives you a 100% chance to get revived though, and at 10 you’ve got a 70% chance so the odds of just dying are at least kind of low.

Charisma gives you the number of henchmen you can have, a modifier on your follower’s loyalty, and how people react to you. Dwarves and Half-Orcs have a maximum charisma but it’s a soft charisma maximum. They can have higher Cha but when dealing with any other race their charisma is considered to be the lower number because fuck you for wanting to assimilate into our culture you freaks. Honestly though this doesn’t make sense to me. In all the genre fiction I’ve read Dwarves seem like pretty cool people. Sure they’re gruff and sometimes harsh but I’d much rather be friends with someone from a race that will go to the ends of the earth to help their friends, instead of say, the elves, who will go to the ends of the forest to avoid your problems because you are of a lower race and therefore unworthy. Half-Orcs I guess I get but it seems kind of pointless. Also Paladins need to have 17 cha so good luck ever getting the stats to play one.

And that’s the section. Like I said before I’m going to be fixing this book soon, so it’ll need to be kept bound closed to apply the pressure to let the glue dry properly. So it might take a bit longer to get the Character races done.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by tussock »

The locked door thing is a holdover from the original rules. In OD&D every door is closed and stuck when you get to it, and you get once chance each to bash it open. It's to force you to random-walk your way through the bits of the dungeon you've already explored.

AD&D is sort of backwards compatible (thematically at least, or an extension of the Holmes D&D book, whichever) and so it "fixed" some of that pure gamist stuff by making it more simulationist but sticking with the same basic tropes.

So there's a d6 to open doors because that rule was already there, but you can now sometimes try again if it makes sense to do so, only there's probably noise and wandering monster checks if you want to be a dick and roll the same d6 check all day.

That's where most of the weird bullshit in AD&D comes from. EGG was just collating all the rules and expansions from the various OD&D supplements, the Dragon, and whatever else people had asked for.
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Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

I always figured it was a balance matter. Like, the fact that you have a very high strength means less if you can just throw dice at an obstacle over and over until it's done. Of course, it neglects the fact that having a high strength means less when your wizard friend gets a very lucky roll and achieves with his low strength what you could not with your high.
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Post by PoliteNewb »

Unlike later games though you don’t just get two spells per level plus whatever you can find instead every time you go up a spell level or your int goes up or down relatively permanently you roll a percentile dice for every wiz- Spell-Caster spell of that level or just all the spells of every level available to you. This is limited by your maximum spells known which could very well be every spell ever if you have 19 or more int and at 19 you have to roll 95 or lower on your percentile dice to learn a spell so the odds of you having a majority of the spells possible is pretty good. Also if you find a spell book or scroll with a spell you don’t know in it you can learn that way.
Slight misunderstanding; in AD&D, you had to succeed at a roll to "understand" the spell...but you still couldn't prepare and cast it unless you also were able to scribe it into your spellbook, either through finding it on a scroll or in another wizard's book, by picking it at level-up time (see below), or by doing spell research.

Wizards (sorry, "magic-users") actually only started with 4 spells (and one of them was "Read Magic"...yes, seriously), and got 1 spell at each level. Everything else they had to scramble for, no matter how high their Int was.
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Post by Username17 »

In 1st edition AD&D, a Longsword does a d12 damage against larger than mansized targets. A Bugbear has 3d8+1 hit points (average 14), an Ogre has 4d8+1 hit points (average 19), and a Troll has 6d8+6 hit points (average 33). The +6 damage you picked up from an 18/00 strength was a very big deal.

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Post by darkmaster »

PoliteNewb wrote:Slight misunderstanding; in AD&D, you had to succeed at a roll to "understand" the spell...but you still couldn't prepare and cast it unless you also were able to scribe it into your spellbook, either through finding it on a scroll or in another wizard's book, by picking it at level-up time (see below), or by doing spell research.

Wizards (sorry, "magic-users") actually only started with 4 spells (and one of them was "Read Magic"...yes, seriously), and got 1 spell at each level. Everything else they had to scramble for, no matter how high their Int was.
Well that is overcomplicated and prohibitive. Good to see D&D treats all its players like a clever clogs they are. I'll have to see if the the magic-user class description clarifies.
FrankTrollman wrote:In 1st edition AD&D, a Longsword does a d12 damage against larger than mansized targets. A Bugbear has 3d8+1 hit points (average 14), an Ogre has 4d8+1 hit points (average 19), and a Troll has 6d8+6 hit points (average 33). The +6 damage you picked up from an 18/00 strength was a very big deal.

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Well at least your extremely lucky roll is useful for you. Are fighters all that necessary, for tanking and dealing damage?
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by shadzar »

darkmaster wrote:I'll have to see if the the magic-user class description clarifies.
You realize in order to actually review something you must have familiarity with it.? In the case of books, you must have read them, so saying you haven't read the book your are reviewing just makes you look pretty stupid as well as untrustworthy.

Congratulations! You just became Gamer_zer0!
Last edited by shadzar on Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Play the game, not the rules.
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good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by darkmaster »

I'm reading the book, and I've stated that I'm coming at this as someone coming to the game for the first time, so fuck off.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by shadzar »

but you neglected to let people know you hadn't READ the book yet, jsut that you are throwing things out as you read each paragraph and decide to review that one paragraph out of context.

read the whole book, then come back and finish the review so you can be fair to those reading your review.don't be the guy who said Harry Potter wasn't worth printing or making movies out of. who was he? nobody remembers because he probably doesnt have that job anymore.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Username17 »

darkmaster wrote:Well at least your extremely lucky roll is useful for you. Are fighters all that necessary, for tanking and dealing damage?
Yes. But... actually having player characters who are Fighters is absolutely not. Check out the hireling & henchmen rules. Basically, you can throw a few gold pieces around and have enough Man-at-Arms going that the additional benefit of having one of the PCs be a fighter is completely drowned in noise.

Throughout AD&D and into 2nd edition there was a continuous arms race where someone would decide that there needed to be an upside to playing a pure Fighter, and then someone else would write in a way to get that upside without being one. So Weapon Specialization got introduced, and then there were ways to get Weapon Specialization was a frickin Magic User. And so on and so on. By the end of 2nd edition, which I remind you was twenty years after the book you're reading was written, a Fighter could be a one-man army slaying badass. And it still didn't matter, because a Priest of Mars could do all that and raise the dead.

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Post by Dean »

Don't argue with Shadzar. He is an idiot who will not read what you write or respond to it honestly.

It is more valuable and more interesting to hear what the book would be like from the perspective of first exposure than to have it described by someone who has already forgotten everything they need to forget to make the system make any sense.

It would also be interesting to hear from someone with lots of expertise on 1E discuss it's nooks and crannies, but that is an entirely different thing than a review of what this book might feel like to access for the first time.
Last edited by Dean on Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by darkmaster »

For someone fond of accusing others of not reading the context of what they're talking about you certainly don't seem to read much yourself.
me wrote:I say I from what I can gather because I’ve never read these volumes
And anyway, this is not a fucking novel. It's a rule book. The context of the rules should the surrounding paragraphs or clearly cross referenced. I have seen maybe one case of cross referencing so far, and I might be thinking of what I've read ahead into the classes pointing you to spell lists so the text has to stand up on its own.

Also, I'm trying to make this as entertaining as I can, but reading this book is arduous. It's not very long but it's all so dry and colorless it seems to take forever. I understand this was in the before times but I will be fucked if I put the time in to really understand everything that is said in this book. Because I would need to spend weeks working some of this out, partly because it's overly complex, but also partly because it's so hard to read for more than an hour at a time.

So if anyone thinks I'm wrong about something I will look it over again and if I'm wrong I will recant, but please specific parts so I can target my reading.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by Dean »

darkmaster wrote:For someone fond of accusing others of not reading the context of what they're talking about you certainly don't seem to read much yourself.
I don't even know what that is in reference to. I know you haven't read them. My post is about how you reviewing them -as someone who has not read them- is valuable and that it would be made less valuable to get a review from someone who had mind-caulked their memory of the book into seeming more like a cohesive whole.
DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.
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Post by darkmaster »

I was replying to Shad in that part, the rest is for everyone though and everyone is encouraged to point out mistakes.
Last edited by darkmaster on Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by Orca »

By the end of a game I ran, where some characters died and were replaced by others, the party was made of a fighter/illusionist, a magic-user/thief, a straight magic-user and I think a fighter/cleric/magic-user.

Trial and error had shown us what the master class was.

Edit: I don't remember a max 5 wisdom for thieves or 5 dex for clerics. Are you sure?
Last edited by Orca on Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by darkmaster »

Not max, but if you have 5 or less wis, you can only be a thief character and same goes for the cleric and dex. If you have 5 or less con you can only be an illusionist and 5 or less cha means you can only be an assassin. But this means you can't have a cleric who is very weak but very wise, because you literally can't have a cleric who has 5 or less strength. Because if you have a strength of 5 or less you must be a magic user.
Last edited by darkmaster on Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by Cyberzombie »

FrankTrollman wrote: Throughout AD&D and into 2nd edition there was a continuous arms race where someone would decide that there needed to be an upside to playing a pure Fighter, and then someone else would write in a way to get that upside without being one. So Weapon Specialization got introduced, and then there were ways to get Weapon Specialization was a frickin Magic User. And so on and so on. By the end of 2nd edition, which I remind you was twenty years after the book you're reading was written, a Fighter could be a one-man army slaying badass. And it still didn't matter, because a Priest of Mars could do all that and raise the dead.
Prior to Skills and Powers, how did the cleric end up stealing the fighter's good stuff?

I played quite a bit of AD&D and I remember clerics being nothing more than first aid tents that people resented getting stuck with playing.
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Post by Username17 »

Cyberzombie wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: Throughout AD&D and into 2nd edition there was a continuous arms race where someone would decide that there needed to be an upside to playing a pure Fighter, and then someone else would write in a way to get that upside without being one. So Weapon Specialization got introduced, and then there were ways to get Weapon Specialization was a frickin Magic User. And so on and so on. By the end of 2nd edition, which I remind you was twenty years after the book you're reading was written, a Fighter could be a one-man army slaying badass. And it still didn't matter, because a Priest of Mars could do all that and raise the dead.
Prior to Skills and Powers, how did the cleric end up stealing the fighter's good stuff?

I played quite a bit of AD&D and I remember clerics being nothing more than first aid tents that people resented getting stuck with playing.
Image

Published in 1990. Much of the book is spent whining about how overpowered the regular Cleric is, and it responds by making specialty priests be unable to buy all the powers and spheres of a Cleric or even a Druid. But if you want to buy all the Fighter goodness, you just do that, and you still have a bit left over to have a few spell spheres.

In 1st edition, specialty priests are even weirder, because it doesn't even pretend that there's a system. So you just comb the deity lists in whatever sources you happen to have access to until you find something that gives you sweet bonuses. You can get yourself a 4th level Fighter as a lieutenant well before you have enough XP under your belt to be a 4th level Fighter yourself if you take the right god.

-Username17
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Does the 1E PHB have any guidelines on how often you're supposed to reroll stats at CharGen, or do they intentionally leave it ambiguous so that they can have their cake and eat it, too?
FrankTrollman wrote:Published in 1990. Much of the book is spent whining about how overpowered the regular Cleric is, and it responds by making specialty priests be unable to buy all the powers and spheres of a Cleric or even a Druid. But if you want to buy all the Fighter goodness, you just do that, and you still have a bit left over to have a few spell spheres.
So, like the Complete Warrior, it's just a book full of nerfs that will make you weaker if you buy it? Is there any upside to actually owning that book? And if there isn't, who's to say that you can't ignore it?
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Seerow »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Does the 1E PHB have any guidelines on how often you're supposed to reroll stats at CharGen, or do they intentionally leave it ambiguous so that they can have their cake and eat it, too?

Darkmaster did mention that there was a line in there saying a character should have like 2 15s to survive. But the actual rules for rolling a character are in the DMG, not the PHB, because fuck you.
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Post by Username17 »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Published in 1990. Much of the book is spent whining about how overpowered the regular Cleric is, and it responds by making specialty priests be unable to buy all the powers and spheres of a Cleric or even a Druid. But if you want to buy all the Fighter goodness, you just do that, and you still have a bit left over to have a few spell spheres.
So, like the Complete Warrior, it's just a book full of nerfs that will make you weaker if you buy it? Is there any upside to actually owning that book? And if there isn't, who's to say that you can't ignore it?
Even though a big portion of the book is dedicated to proposing nerfs for priests, it's kind of a power gamer's wet dream. The first thing that happens, is you lose a bunch of sphere access and have more restrictive stat requirements. The second thing that happens, is that you get to trade some of your remaining spell list for super powers. Want to fight like a weapon specialist fighter? You can do that. Want to Inspire Fear like the fucking fourth level Wizard spell fear twice a day at first level? You can do that too.

If you want to really kick ass and take names, you only get major access to three out of 16 flavors of Priest spells - so pick carefully. But you still get a full complement of spell slots and you're basically a Fighter who gets some 4th level spell equivalents at 1st level and an army of soldiers at 8th level. Don't forget to take racial restriction on your faith so that only characters who are the race you happen to want to play can be a priest of your religion. Because that counts as a major restriction even though it limits your actual character in no way whatsoever. Not being allowed to wear non-metal armor also counts as a restriction for some reason, so do that.

It is actually super helpful that the path to powergaming a combat priest is actually an extremely realistic depiction of war faiths and the samples need extremely minimal tweaking to let you shit all over the players who actually decided to roll some flavor of Warrior.

-Username17
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