3.X for Modern Urban Fantasy, Espionage, Superheroes, etc

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radthemad4
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3.X for Modern Urban Fantasy, Espionage, Superheroes, etc

Post by radthemad4 »

Some of my players expressed interest in a Modern day game. While I might pick up other systems some day, I wanted to give a reflavored 3.X a shot as it would be really easy to pick up.
Prak_Anima wrote:I'd.... actually be ok with Streetfinder, assuming that they veered away from d20M's big problems:
  • One base class per ability score- This was dumb. I mean, really, really dumb. Especially because of the second problem and how it made the Dex Hero better than all the others (and the fact that a Str Hero is basically useless in the age of guns)
  • Talent trees- The basic idea of talent trees was not terrible. I like the idea of "here's a table of thematic abilties, some have prereqs, they all fit this class," but d20M's talents all pretty much sucked. I want to say that Paizo could do much better, but Paizo wasn't the company that wrote the article that makes me think the writers of Dragon could do better (see below).
  • Too much mundane, not enough "fantasy"- I don't mean sword and sorcery. Crank and The Transporter are violent action power fantasies, but the key thing to them is that there is still an element of fantasy.
Those last two are related. In a Dragon annual back in the early '00s, Dragon did an article on using d20 to emulate various movies/shows/etc. They pointed out that even if you don't have magic, you need something fantastic to keep the game from being "I waste it with my crossbowgun till the heat death of the universe!"

The writers of d20M didn't follow this, and that's one of the reasons it sucked.

Hell, I could probably sit down and write 5 or 6 classes for a modern world that represent different professions. Like "Law Enforcer," "Medic," "Investigator," "Mechanic," "Combatant," (Guy what makes a living being trained to kill fucks-- soldier, underground fighter, hitman, etc) and lets say "Scientist."

In my personal opinion, very few modern people are higher than about third level. Maybe as high as fourth or fifth for that one grizzled bad ass that every city has for a given profession.

So, like, House is maybe a fifth level medic. So level three would represent "Average professional of their field," and fifth would be "THE guy that third levels tell stories about who is the best around."

I'd probably go up to tenth level with tenth level being, basically "SUPER COP!!!" or "SURGEON WHO PERFORMS BATTLEFIELD AMPUTATION WHILE RETURNING FIRE!!!" etc. If you want a gritty realistic modern game, you start at third level (unless you want people playing rookies and med students, etc), and if anyone hits fifth level, they stop gaining xp (or you try to find something for them to do with xp other than leveling), but it's totally possible for you to play a modern game where the tank is basically Transporter Jason Statham because they're a 7th level Combatant.
But, whether or not Prak feels like doing this, I'm curious as to what classes are usable as is?

And some stuff I found:

Tome of Marvelous Heroes

25 Better Video Game Magic Items

60-odd Magic Items inspired by Pop Culture

DnDWiki: Category: Mundane (including d20 modern stuff)

So, anyone tried a modern day game with 3.X? How'd it go?
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Post by OgreBattle »

Isn't a Rogue already a modern class? You sneak around with a gun in each hand.

Pathfinder even provides you with the Junkie class (Alchemist), who can power up by ingesting his favorite drugs (mutagens).
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Post by Username17 »

D&D really doesn't work all that well for "modern" gaming. The conceits of class and hit points are a square peg in a round hole as far as modern storytelling. Goons with drawn guns are supposed to be scary in a way that orcs with javelins simply are not. The entire concept of "level" and particularly the way you only gain skills when you level up is extremely at odds with the manner in which characters solve problems in a modern context.

The most basic modern encounter is "goons enter the room with guns" and that just doesn't function properly in d20. The most basic modern plot is "characters encounter a mystery or tough opponent, they train and or research a solution, then they use their new skills to win the day." And that doesn't work in d20 either.

It's really an uphill battle. D20 Modern was a shotglass full of feces, but it wasn't just because it was hacked out in a half assed fashion by the B-Team. It's because the d20 system fights against the designer tooth and nail whenever you're trying to do anything with it other than high fantasy.

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Post by virgil »

Those restrictions wouldn't be a problem within the superhero genre though, which is part of the reason that M&M works. Its flaws are dependent on point-buy, which is completely different from any flaws with d20 itself.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

FrankTrollman wrote:Goons with drawn guns are supposed to be scary in a way that orcs with javelins simply are not.
You mean like in Equilibrium, Terminator, Ghost in the Shell, and Batman?

As long as you remember that a level 10 character doesn't become more like a normal person just because you've switched to a modern setting, you might be fine.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Foxwarrior wrote:As long as you remember that a level 10 character doesn't become more like a normal person just because you've switched to a modern setting, you might be fine.
And then you can't have people who are good at things but are also not time-travelling roboschwarzeneneggers or equivalent. The notion that you should take all of the things a character does and tie them to a single number does not work in the context of modern stories. It is a bad idea. It does not give the results that people might expect or want. It doesn't even really work for Superhero/Less-Than-Superhero stories, where hyperspecialization is super abundant.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

It's a bit odd in medieval stories too.
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Post by radthemad4 »

Ogre: Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks. The gun is a weapon, and any class should be able to use it. The Rogue would be more of a sneaky, stealthy type. The Fighter could be wearing heavy bullet proof armor and doing more of a direct assault type of thing. The Barbarian would have to be some sort of superhero like the Hulk, the Thing, etc. but less so (at least at lower levels). And, yeah the alchemist fits well with 'mutagens'. Also, casters and most of the Tome Community Classes could fit in without any issues to represent mages, magical beings, specialized full metal alchemists, supers, etc.

Frank: Yeah, in modern fiction, protagonists seem to have an amazing ability to not be hit by bullets. It's like mooks need a natural 20 00 on a d100 or something to hit them, and even then it's not somewhere vital. I remember a scene in an episode of Superman TAS where guy with a machine gun spent over three seconds shooting Batman, who charged head on and knocked him out without a scratch. For some reason, frequently getting shot at (and being hit) doesn't feel weird in videogames though I can't put my finger on precisely why. I could try to not think about it too hard. As for the typical arc thing... I don't know. What system does work for those? Maybe I could aim for less Buffy or Supernatural and more TMNT or Jackie Chan Adventures.

virgil: Yeah, I think the superhero genre could work pretty smoothly as long as they're at least bullet resistant (e.g. I'd expect Spider-man to be able to take a few shots and live, though he could probably just dodge them), but they also seem to be able to avoid bullets without super speed or something. That said, I'm wondering if I can learn to not let a lack of bullet lethality bother me, the same way it doesn't bother me in videogames. Definitely not an issue if all supers have DR (e.g. Iron Man, Superman, The Thing, Rhino, Colossus, etc. or regeneration like Wolverine) though.

Foxwarrior & DSMatticus: I think I'll make level 10 the peak for badass normals. Any more than that, you'll need a power suit, magic, a superpower, a mutation, or something or other to advance further. Also, I'm considering either making advancement really slow or non existent.
Last edited by radthemad4 on Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Yeah, in modern fiction, protagonists seem to have an amazing ability to not be hit by bullets.
Yes they do. But you know what they don't have? The ability to get repeatedly shot in the heart without noticeable impairment. Sure, it is apparently ridiculously difficult to hit Barbara Gordon with a bullet, but if you do hit her in the back with a bullet, you break her fucking spine and she spends the next several years in a wheel chair.

This is why people like to use dice pools for modern games. It allows characters to be very bullet resistant by having them be good at dodging bullets - without actually having it be difficult to injure or kill them by putting a gun against their body and pulling the damn trigger.

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Post by Prak »

It's also why Fate uses Fate points and complications and Mutants and Masterminds has hero points.
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Post by Wiseman »

I'd recommend Mutants and Masterminds for this, PL6-8 if your not using any real powers. 10-12 if you are. It's entirely point buy, and is implicitly designed for superhero style games.
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Post by Prak »

Another ill-conceived idea of minething I wrote you might want to look at rad is Grittiness and Grit Die. It's a reframe of an existing mechanic and a half-assed mook rule.
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

FrankTrollman wrote:Yes they do. But you know what they fantasy characters don't have? The ability to get repeatedly shot sworded in the heart without noticeable impairment.
I'm just pointing out this is a double standard that didn't stop D&D.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Foxwarrior wrote:It's a bit odd in medieval stories too.
D&D is not a "medieval" (aside: we're using this word loosely) story. ASoIaF is a "medieval" (again, really loose use of the word there) story, and yes, it would be super weird if Tyrion turned into roboterminator because he's also very witty.

D&D is a murder treadmill featuring fantastic heroes vs mythical beasts. Commoners fall off the radar at a certain level completely, and you stop having meaningful interactions with them in any part of the game - not just combat. But Batman can and will have meaningful interactions with mundane journalists who are exceptional enough at their job to investigate supers, and those mundane journalists will be even easier to beat up than random goon with gun #7 despite their exceptional investigative skills. Tying those things together does not work for Batman stories or modern stories in general, because "being relevant" is not about being powerful enough (the right level) and instead about having the right skills/abilities for a particular scene/activity.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

PhoneLobster wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Yes they do. But you know what they fantasy characters don't have? The ability to get repeatedly shot sworded in the heart without noticeable impairment.
I'm just pointing out this is a double standard that didn't stop D&D.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Even in anime that's usually fatal.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

PhoneLobster wrote:Even in anime that's usually fatal.
A large portion of anime is slice-of-life stuff that isn't heroic genre at all.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

That's still usually fatal in "heroic genre" anime. About the best they get is extended death scenes for extra pathos or to stab someone else.

I mean go ahead. Try and weasel out of it as much as you can by shifting your genre goal posts. But in D&D injuries like that are reserved for animated zombies... and that's close enough to the same in anime.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

DSMatticus wrote:But Batman can and will have meaningful interactions with mundane journalists who are exceptional enough at their job to investigate supers, and those mundane journalists will be even easier to beat up than random goon with gun #7 despite their exceptional investigative skills. Tying those things together does not work for Batman stories or modern stories in general, because "being relevant" is not about being powerful enough (the right level) and instead about having the right skills/abilities for a particular scene/activity.
I have a question about this kind of division.

Is this problem inherent to the genre or is it just a quirk of the RNG?

The obvious answer is that it's a genre problem -- because a competent but muggle lawyer or engineer in modern times would top out at around +13 to their bonus (including non-magical geegaw like access to a really sweet library and/or workshop) while a magical lawyer or engineer in D&D's ridiculous setting can get way higher than that.

But on the other hand, a muggle professional in modern times can just do more with their skill. Even a mediocre muggle journalist can look at the Internet, take photos on their smartphone, send case files to a psychology professor for a profile, bug the local politician's office, use imagine manipulation software, can browse an encyclopedia or court files, etc. etc. If you were trying to represent that level of competence in D&D, their bonus would be much higher than that of a lawyer or engineer. Hell, let's go back to what I would call the Mundane Stealth v. Invisibility Problem (though in this case it's actually reversed): why wouldn't you let a modern journalist with all of that crap accomplish more impressive stuff in a story than some warforged lawyer who's wearing a circle of +15 to profession/journalist and has to sketch and memorize scene details?

Now, again, you might just say that if that technology was handed over to Holmes or Frankenstein, their final bonus would be even higher. But that's the wrong way to look at it. Characters like Batman and Spider-Man and The Question are described as preternaturally (if not supernaturally) skilled at their hobbyhorses but even when Superman has access to the full science labs of his Fortress of Solitude and his ridiculous super speed/reflexes he's not noticeably better at any muggle than some bushy-bearded scientist except for certain gags like meeting a deadline. Though Batman has been out-sleuthed and out-smarted by other muggles before, he'd still do better in his art than pretty much any fantasy character named.
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Re: 3.X for Modern Urban Fantasy, Espionage, Superheroes, etc

Post by shadzar »

radthemad4 wrote:Some of my players expressed interest in a Modern day game.
have you considered d20 Modern? dont know anything about it personally, but no D&D ruleset would be able to model modern urban because it is sword and sorcery based, which modern is not. tech is not a replacement of sorcery, and guns are not a replacement of swords...

maybe go back to before AD&D and look at Boot Hill, which was a westerns based game, at least it had 6-guns in it, or Cadillacs and Dinosaurs or another game like that where guns are featured prominently that are not muzzle loading flint-locks like D&D has, but similar to modern weapons.

GURPS or Rifts may be better to model a more modern game on since they have more modern guns and even some futuristic which is almost modern since we almost have laser guns and such give or take another 5 years when you consider Moore's Law.
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Post by OgreBattle »

As said, D&D an't the best system for this, but let's see what we can work with. There are real world animals in D&D, from the CR1 camel to the CR7 elephant. In our real world those animals are hunted. When people hunt elephants though they don't do it by stabbing them 100 times with swords. You should make use of "Massive Damage threshold" rules like...

"When you take damage from a single source that exceeds your CON score, make a Fort save (DC 5+damage dealt) or be reduced to -1 HP. Ignore this if the damage would've dropped you to -1 or lower."

*if that's too severe, then "if you fail the save you take critical damage"

An elephant has 104hp, CON 21, and FORT +12. So if you want to hunt an elephant you need to deal deal 21+ points of damage in a single shot. If you deal 22pts of damage to an elephant with one shot it'll need to make a DC 26 FORT save to not be droped below 0 HP. That damage will probably come from a hunter who has sneak attack dice (or some way to auto-crit vs unaware targets) which boost the already high damage potential of his elephant gun.

Here's the durability of various D&D animals
CR1/2 Badger: HP6 CON 15 FORT +4
CR2 Gorilla: HP 29 CON14 FORT +6
CR2 Bison: HP 37 CON16 FORT +7
CR4 Brown Bear: HP 51 CON 19 FORT +9
CR5 Giant Python: HP63 CON 13 FORT +8
CR7 Elephant: HP104 CON 21 FORT +12
CR7 Sperm Whale: HP 141 CON 24 FORT +15
CR8 Tyrannosaurus: HP180 CON21 FORT +16

You should probably cap PC levels at 6, at that point they're well past the level of gorilla toughness.

As for classes to use... why not the Tome martial classes?

Barbarian: Rage dice applies to ALL damage, yelling makes your bullets hit harder
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Post by Foxwarrior »

DSMatticus wrote:
Foxwarrior wrote:It's a bit odd in medieval stories too.
D&D is not a "medieval" (aside: we're using this word loosely) story.
This is probably why you're having such difficulty converting it into a "modern" one. When I think of changing D&D into a "modern" game, I imagine taking out the "medieval" elements and putting "modern" ones in its place. When you think about it, apparently, you think of taking out the "D&D Oddly Durable Murder Hobo" elements and putting "modern" ones in its place?

There are still difficulties even if you don't worry more about Commoner Journalists and people who survive attacks just because there are guns and cars in the world. Things like rifles with 2 mile ranges (spot penalties ahoy!), vehicles that move more than 2 miles in a round, and the whole way that mundane gadget masters are more like Rogues who make extensive use of scrolls than like Wizards.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Foxwarrior wrote:When you think about it, apparently, you think of taking out the "D&D Oddly Durable Murder Hobo" elements and putting "modern" ones in its place?
DSM wrote:But Batman can and will have meaningful interactions with mundane journalists who are exceptional enough at their job to investigate supers, and those mundane journalists will be even easier to beat up than random goon with gun #7 despite their exceptional investigative skills. Tying those things together does not work for Batman stories or modern stories in general, because "being relevant" is not about being powerful enough (the right level) and instead about having the right skills/abilities for a particular scene/activity.
Do the things I type only ever make sense to me and come out as word salad to everyone else? This is turning into something of a reoccurring problem. Seriously, I'm engaging you directly on your examples of modern Oddly Durable Murder Hobo's. How did that make sense to you when you were typing it.

Look - level is a thing that relates your ability to be relevant at any particular task to your ability to be relevant at all other tasks. That's what the term means and that's what it does, at least in D&D. A level 10 wizard can beat the everloving shit out of a level 1 monk in a magicless kung-fu deathmatch, because wizards become better at kung-fu deathmatches by gaining more wizard levels. And while somewhat silly, that really doesn't matter in the context of D&D, because the actual things level 10 wizards run into are clay golems and fire giants and they would very much not want to get into magicless kung-fu deathmatches with those things.

But if you're doing a modern/Batman/Terminator/whatever game, then telling me that an excellent hacker must also be a good boxer is insane. And it will actually matter because the Joker's goons will show up to rough up the hacker and force him to do something nefarious, and he will beat them all to death with his furious fists of nerdrage. You can't make characters who are exceptional at things without turning them into Oddly Durable Murder Hobos. That does not work for anything anyone has ever called "a modern setting."
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Post by JigokuBosatsu »

There is the idea the level is far more abstract and related to your "protagonist status". So your 10th level wizard does beat the 1st level monk because he does something weird like smash him in the head with a flower pot. Or the PC hacker does manage to fight his way through the goons when realistically one of them should have shotgunned him to death 2 seconds in. That sort of shit happens all the time in any media you care to look at.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

Maybe I phrased that wrong. There are genre conventions in D&D, and there are mechanics that support those genre conventions. If you try to use D&D to make a "modern" game without taking out the "Oddly Durable Murder Hobo"-genre-supporting mechanics, you will end up with a game about Oddly Durable Murder Hoboes in a Modern environment. Both of us agree on that, I think.

I don't agree, however, that a game about Oddly Durable Murder Hoboes in a Modern environment is necessarily not a game with "a modern setting". It can still have hackers, fast cars, and lots of gunfire you know.

And the Joker could send a level-appropriate number of goons at the hacker, after arranging to get him in a situation where he couldn't use his hacking powers. Much like sending an army of level 1 monks at a wizard in a null magic zone.
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