Which is the least bad published D&D setting?

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:12 am

I think The Lady works well enough as a justification for why Sigil does not explode despite not having a working political structure. This creates a minor problem which is that you cannot have the Factions in that situation. Fair enough, the Factions are kinda dumb.

It also creates a bigger problem that if the party decides to set their sights on the Lady and take Sigil for themselves, you are obligated to create a way to do so that doesn't have to be easy but does have to be possible.

Alternately, you can do what other people have suggested and have the Lady have little or no actual power and presence, and let people duke it out to be the ruler of Sigil atop its own labyrinthine set of politics (I still recommend rewriting the Factions to be less dumbtarded). Trying to do like Planescape and having the Lady maintain peace and banning local government while still having the Factions running around maneuvering politically is just dumb. You have to have it one one or the other, not both.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:27 am

I personally think she should be treated as simply the anthropomorphic personification of Sigil. Kind of like a god popping into existence because a concept starts being worshipped/talked about, except that the AP of Sigil is a personification of a place which rejects religion, so of course it's "god" eschews worship.

Also, she should have stats, and be killable/defeatable.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:38 am

She doesn't even have to be killable in any real way. Just use the game system to execute the effects she potentially has on PCs. Damage numbers by gaze instead of "you are flayed to death", so you can take cover, run to a portal, and leave town.

There's Dragon god's avatars in one of the 2e books that have suitable stats for "do not fuck with these things". Such that you wouldn't lose the whole party if you were at the limits of the system in terms of power, just a PCs per round on average. If you kill them they just respawn, but it's super-hard to kill them anyway. The Lady could've been that.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:57 am

I think she should be something that can be faced and overcome. If she's an anthropomorphic personification of the city as I'm proposing, any PC who is becoming powerful, powerful enough to gain real influence in the city, they should face her, and it should be possible to defeat her--though I think the real way you defeat her is by changing Sigil. And if you rise to become the real power of the city, you should probably become her.

Silva should have some idea of what I'm talking about here. It's a very Runequest God sort of idea.

silva · Post by **silva** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:49 am

Cyberzombie wrote:
silva wrote: Now, you know what "metaphysical force" Elminster is supposed to personify? The GM's dick.
More like Greenwood's dick.

Youre right. I stand corrected.

The problem is, that issue isn't unique to Elminster. The setting just isn't willing to let you permanently take out anyone remotely important. It's MMO-syndrome. Manshoon has an army of clones so if you ever kill him, his next clone activates and it's business as usual. Szass Tam is a lich, so naturally, has some impossible to locate Phylactery. I suspect most of the people here have tried killing Drizz't in Baldur's Gate 2, and know what happens afterwards. That's what FR is all about. Maintaining the status quo. Even when you do achieve something, the world is set up in such a way where it rapidly undoes it.

And the world kind of realizes it too, given that the majority of the NPCs have given up on world domination plots and have instead just decided to try to monopolize trade or whatever. Why the red wizards care about being magic item merchants, I have no idea. I guess it's to give them shit to do when they realize they can't actually conquer anyone despite being a group of epic level badasses.

silva · Post by **silva** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:17 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:I personally think she should be treated as simply the anthropomorphic personification of Sigil. Kind of like a god popping into existence because a concept starts being worshipped/talked about, except that the AP of Sigil is a personification of a place which rejects religion, so of course it's "god" eschews worship.

...any PC who is becoming powerful, powerful enough to gain real influence in the city, should face her, and it should be possible to defeat her--though I think the real way you defeat her is by changing Sigil. And if you rise to become the real power of the city, you should probably become her.

Wow, thats probably the awesomest idea I heard in a long time! Thanks, man.

Silva should have some idea of what I'm talking about here. It's a very Runequest God sort of idea.

Yup. Gaining enough mythic-symbolic influence to challenge her image, and then going "behind the stage" (aka the godplane) to kill her.

Im already imagining a way to do it:

1. spend years training in portal and teleporting magic until you become a master at it;

2. contact Fell, Elminster, and any other interested party in a secret place out of Sigil to convince them you are the avatar of a new god of portals or something like that, and that you need their support to dethrone the Lady;

3. begin a campaign to imprint your name as a new god everywhere as possible (specially on material planes), until you get powerful enough.

4. construct a new "city of doors" thats bigger and more chaotic than Sigil to try and fight Sigil image.

5. Then, when Sigil (and the Lady) get weaker, proceed with a full scale assault both on its physical image and its mythical image through a powerful heroquest ritual.

6. Become the Lord of Pain.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:23 pm

silva wrote:6. Become the Lord of Pain.

Nope, Sigil's AP is a chick. You become her, you have to be a woman, one way or another.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:36 am

Well we all know Lady of Pain was conceptualized in 1994 for the setting, and we all know who she is meant to be. Thus we can understand why she is jsut a figurehead , unapproachable, and a total bitch. She is Lorraine Williams CEO of T$R immortalized in D&D with a character that is identical to the way EVERYONE saw her, by Zeb Cook.

Thus why giving her stats and being able to kill her, while it would make many people feel better, would be akin to plots of murder to the real bitch herself, and probably not a good career move for Zeb or anyone else employed at T$R, nor any designer since.

IF HASBRO ever gives her stats, then the "family-game company" will be allowing people to murder a simulacrum of a REAL person...which isnt a very family friendly thing to do.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:48 am

By that logic, WotC allows players to murder a simulacrum of Ed Greenwood by giving Elminster stats, and Dragon magazine allowed players to murder a simulacrum of Gygax by statting Zagyg.

infected slut princess · Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:49 am

Lol is nentir vale the shittiest setting you have ever seen or what

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:26 am

infected slut princess wrote:Lol is nentir vale the shittiest setting you have ever seen or what

Haven't seen it, so feel free to rant.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:30 am

Prak_Anima wrote:By that logic, WotC allows players to murder a simulacrum of Ed Greenwood by giving Elminster stats, and Dragon magazine allowed players to murder a simulacrum of Gygax by statting Zagyg.

that would be Ed's dick, and Ed created those stats of his own free will, as did Gary create stats for Bigby, Zagyg, and all the other simulacrums of himself within the game. Giving stats to someone that didn't allow it would be different. she was a total bitch, but unless she gave or told someone to give her simulacrum stats, it would be akin to an attack on her person in this day and age. liable? slanderous? other such things of that nature. LoP then is best left alone since NOBODY wants LW involved with D&D again.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:16 pm

No. Take it from someone in Journalism, giving stats to a character based on a real person is neither slander nor libel. It's giving stats to a character who was based on a person, nothing more. It might be disturbing for someone to write Sarah Palin snuff porn, but it's not illegal.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:27 am

well there is also defamation of character, misrepresentation of the person, identity theft, and initiating a threat that must be considered too, as ALL such things come into play with cartoons and such as would an RPG about KILLING things.

you have to be extremely careful how you represent someone else or there is a mountain of things that you could be charged with, and just being charged with such could do lots of damage.

so best to leave LoP to the imagination, or for people to stat her for their own game, than to publish it.

imagine a cartoon from years ago with Obama standing over and smiling at the graves of 2 Bushs, not the people, but their presidential careers. some would see this as VERY funny and well deserved that we are finally through with them, others would take it as an actual and literal attack.

if you think the way something is interpreted doesnt affect it, then just look at the Powerpuff Girls cover that had them more grown up that recently got pulled due to complaints of over sexualization.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:52 pm

I'm really tempted to stat up a 'Shadzar' for my game, now. Perhaps give it a 'confusion' attack like a Gibbering Mouther. And definitely some ability to disappear and come back later (like a Vampire Regeneration).

And for kicks, I'm going to have to make it extraplanar.

It'd also have to have some command function - usually used to order people to shit in their hands.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:58 pm

Do it.

Tumbling Down · Post by **Tumbling Down** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:26 pm

deaddmwalking wrote:I'm really tempted to stat up a 'Shadzar' for my game, now.

An admirable sentiment but someone beat you to it.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:15 pm

Tumbling Down wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote:I'm really tempted to stat up a 'Shadzar' for my game, now.
An admirable sentiment but someone beat you to it.

That is a solid joke.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:53 am

shadzar wrote:well there is also defamation of character, misrepresentation of the person, identity theft, and initiating a threat that must be considered too, as ALL such things come into play with cartoons and such as would an RPG about KILLING things.

you have to be extremely careful how you represent someone else or there is a mountain of things that you could be charged with, and just being charged with such could do lots of damage.

What in the actual fuck did I just read??????

I seriously can't describe just how amazingly terribad your argument here is. It's so bad I'm totally going to go send your argument to my lawyer friend because it's the weekend and he needs a good belly laugh.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:20 pm

what the fuck is this thread even about now

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:38 pm

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:46 pm

Personally, I like the idea of the Lady as a legend, a rumor, an idea, someone who doesn't exist.

So a party of murderhobos off a god and steal his swag. They want to retire to the peace and quiet of the Demiplane of Infinite Blowjobs and they don't want anyone coming after them for revenge (or just to steal their godswag) so they blame the Lady of Pain (who doesn't exist).

Then someone important vanishes without a trace. Someone blames the Lady of Pain.

A Balor throws his weight around too much and gets murdered in a dark alley. The killers blame the Lady of Pain.

Suddenly, any mysterious thing gets blamed on the LoP, especially if no one wants to take credit for it and sometimes even if they do. The LoP is obviously absurdly powerful, since even Overgods can't detect her through any means. The fact that she doesn't exist just adds to her legend and makes people more likely to believe in her.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:38 am

So what do people think of Golarion?

I'm looking at trying to put together a D&D Pokemon game, and looking for a setting to cram 'mons and gyms into.

I don't know a ton about Golarion, other than the fact that it's the default Pathfinder setting and has goblins that, while dumb-looking, are at least seemingly portrayed as having at least human level intelligence.

The other setting I'm thinking about for Dungeons and Druddigons is Eberron, since I think the vaguetech of Pokemon would fit well into the artifice-heavy world of Eberron.

LeadPal · Post by **LeadPal** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:54 am

Prak wrote:So what do people think of Golarion?

It's unimaginative. So much so that there's little reason to use it over a homebrew if you're not taking advantage of the adventure support. Seriously, if you made up a setting as you went along and suddenly announced "Here be Vikings!" you have done exactly as much design work as went into the Lands of the Linnorm Kings. That is the level of inspiration you're competing with.

Night Goat · Post by **Night Goat** » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:10 am

If you want to set your campaign in a fantasy version of a place that actually exists, Golarion probably has you covered. AFAIK Pokemon is set in not-Japan, and Golarion has a whole continent of East Asia ripoffs. If you're looking for anything really original, though, you won't find it here.

To answer the titular question: I think Eberron is the least bad D&D setting by far. It seems like the authors put more thought into it than other settings - which is to say, any thought at all.