SKR quotables

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
RobbyPants
King
Posts: 5201
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:11 pm

Post by RobbyPants »

Remember SKR's feat point system? The one where you can take Quicken Spell and Natural Spell for the same cost as Toughness? Well, apparently he got upset that people on the Internet rudely critiqued him and decided to replace it with a whiny message:
SKR wrote:Hi, I guess you're here for the feat point system I wrote in 2003.

Well, I've deleted the page for it and replaced it with this.

Some people have taken it upon themselves to tear this thing apart, as if it were my magnum opus and I think it is the Best Thing Ever.

Actually, it was a variant rule I thought up (for the D&D 3.0 ruleset) in a couple of hours while commuting to work on a train, with the intent of messing with the idea that all feats cost exactly the same amount ("1 feat unit"). It wasn't trying to solve any big problems with the game. It was just an speculative experiment.

Yes, the feat point numbers in that speculative experiment are off, and we've all had an additional 11 years (and two revisions of the game) to think about how much value the various feats should have relative to each other, plus hundreds of new feats and spells in various sources that skew the value of those Player's Handbook feats in the context of the entire game.

Some people go out of their way to be insulting and rude about this speculative experiment. If you want to do so, I'm sure you can find someone who has it or a link on the Wayback Machine to the original post. But I'm not going to leave pumpkins out on the porch (as old and quickly-carved as they may be) just so you can smash them.

Thanks, and have a good day!
I'm not sure which is worse: his system or the message he left in its place.
Orca
Knight-Baron
Posts: 877
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:31 am

Post by Orca »

Taking him at his word, his communication skills are terrible and in eleven years he couldn't be bothered to improve his system one iota.

You could read more into it but why bother? That's plenty to dismiss him with.
User avatar
RobbyPants
King
Posts: 5201
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:11 pm

Post by RobbyPants »

Yeah, it's obvious butthurt. His whole position is it's speculative, so it can't be criticized, even if it's terrible.

Image
User avatar
hogarth
Prince
Posts: 4582
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:00 pm
Location: Toronto

Post by hogarth »

RobbyPants wrote:Yeah, it's obvious butthurt. His whole position is it's speculative, so it can't be criticized, even if it's terrible.
The defensive tone is a bit unnecessary, but I wouldn't necessarily want to be attacked over something I said off the cuff eleven years ago.
User avatar
erik
King
Posts: 5861
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by erik »

hogarth wrote:
RobbyPants wrote:Yeah, it's obvious butthurt. His whole position is it's speculative, so it can't be criticized, even if it's terrible.
The defensive tone is a bit unnecessary, but I wouldn't necessarily want to be attacked over something I said off the cuff eleven years ago.
I had plenty of stupid ideas 11 years ago about 3e D&D that I would mock today. I remember arguing about the Bladesinger being totally unbalanced since it was superior to a fighter. Ha ha ha haaaa *wipes tear*. Oh man. Anyway, I can understand where he's coming from here. Still, were it I, I probably would have left it up in all its glory and then added a sidebar with commentary returning to it to put it in proper perspective. Pointing out that feat points were a lost cause since feats were not remotely equivalent and most of them aren't worth a turd.
infected slut princess
Knight-Baron
Posts: 790
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:44 am
Location: 3rd Avenue

Post by infected slut princess »

SKR is making his own RPG. Do you think it will be totally awesome?
Oh, then you are an idiot. Because infected slut princess has never posted anything worth reading at any time.
User avatar
Dogbert
Duke
Posts: 1133
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:17 am
Contact:

Post by Dogbert »

infected slut princess wrote:SKR is making his own RPG. Do you think it will be totally awesome?
Link?
Image
GâtFromKI
Knight-Baron
Posts: 513
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:14 am

Post by GâtFromKI »

SKR is a very competent internet troll. So if it's a game about internet trolls, it can be very good.
ishy
Duke
Posts: 2404
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:59 pm

Post by ishy »

Yeah without paizo holding him down, I'm certain it'll be amazing.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
User avatar
Josh_Kablack
King
Posts: 5318
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Online. duh

Post by Josh_Kablack »

2003 was 3 years into 3.0, so anyone paying attention had at least some idea of what worked and what didn't. The 3.5 PHB on my shelf is dated July 2003.

Also, I'm pretty upset that he gets to ride trains to work when my city is struggling to keep running any sort of bus service.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
ishy
Duke
Posts: 2404
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:59 pm

Post by ishy »

Josh_Kablack wrote:2003 was 3 years into 3.0, so anyone paying attention had at least some idea of what worked and what didn't. The 3.5 PHB on my shelf is dated July 2003.
You'd think so, but here's a quote from the 3.5 previews
Q: Is anything being done to half-orcs and half-elves?

A: Many of the races in the Player's Handbook received minor changes, but both half-orcs and half-elves are extremely popular as PCs. If we changed them significantly (particularly the half-orc, which is a very powerful and popular PC race) we would do a disservice to fans of those races and the revision.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
Krusk
Knight-Baron
Posts: 601
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:56 pm

Post by Krusk »

I don't buy it. If that's what it was, he'd have presented it as such then. This reeks of "come on guys, I totally wasn't serious" after finding out everyone is mocking him.
User avatar
Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage
Posts: 14757
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Kaelik »

Krusk wrote:I don't buy it. If that's what it was, he'd have presented it as such then. This reeks of "come on guys, I totally wasn't serious" after finding out everyone is mocking him.
Yeah this.

Absolutely no part of what he said, even throwing it together in a couple hours, excuses toughness and quicken spell. But instead of admitting that he made mistakes, he just took it down and blamed people who pointed out his failures.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Stubbazubba
Knight-Baron
Posts: 737
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 6:01 pm
Contact:

Post by Stubbazubba »

Isn't the point of a speculative experiment to find out how/where it stops working, take that feedback, and iterate? If people weren't supposed to run it through the shredder and find everything wrong with it, then it's not an experiment.
Antariuk
Knight
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 8:25 am

Post by Antariuk »

My question is, was this terrible idea really discussed anywhere recently, or does SKR simply have more time on his hands now to delve into the archives of D&D discussions on the web? Because the most recent rant - if saying that the idea sucks before you move the fuck on with your posting qualifies as a rant - I could find is from 2011.

Maybe we get a Ghostwalk rebuttal next? That would be awesome.
Last edited by Antariuk on Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." - Steven Brust
infected slut princess
Knight-Baron
Posts: 790
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:44 am
Location: 3rd Avenue

Post by infected slut princess »

Obviously Sean K Renyolds is going to make the best RPG ever.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/125Pentagon/

He knows what needs to be done:

Make characters less dependent on equipment...
MOAR LEVELS...
Reward roleplaying, adventuring, and social interaction instead of just doing damage to dudes...
Make the game easier to play...

Make fighters more like wizards:
http://seankreynolds.wordpress.com/2014 ... ng-styles/

Make the 'sweet spot' last longer!:
http://seankreynolds.wordpress.com/2014 ... weet-spot/

But these are just teh goals of, I dunno, EVERY FANTASY RPG EVER SINCE 3.5 PISSED EVERYONE OFF. And to date, no one has succeeded. We got 4e and Pathfucker and D&D Next Mearls Failure.
Oh, then you are an idiot. Because infected slut princess has never posted anything worth reading at any time.
User avatar
Foxwarrior
Duke
Posts: 1626
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:54 am
Location: RPG City, USA

Post by Foxwarrior »

So, he plans to improve the level 6-12 sweet spot by making it take longer to reach. Clever.
Last edited by Foxwarrior on Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ishy
Duke
Posts: 2404
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:59 pm

Post by ishy »

So he doesn't like 'the sweet spot' ending at level 12 because people expect to be able to level 'till 20 or 30 and ending it at 12 doesn't feel appropriate.
So his easy solution is to double the amount of levels. After which he notes that his solution doesn't work.

Da fuck. :bash:

I also like his solution to high level not working is to cut high level play out of the game. And his solution to people not liking early levels (because people are too weak) is to make people even weaker at level 1.
Last edited by ishy on Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Leress »

I think people call this a comedy of errors.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
CapnTthePirateG
Duke
Posts: 1545
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:07 am

Post by CapnTthePirateG »

This sounds exactly like the leadup to 4e.

I suspect it will end similarly.
OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I
Image
Antariuk
Knight
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 8:25 am

Post by Antariuk »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:This sounds exactly like the leadup to 4e.

I suspect it will end similarly.
^

So... reptile boobs, sumo padding, and some errata every other week?
I'd watch that, if it involves SKR ranting about his critics.
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." - Steven Brust
User avatar
GnomeWorks
Master
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:19 am

Post by GnomeWorks »

That preliminary cover sketch looks nifty, at least.

Too bad it's being wasted on something that sounds like it will be terrible.
fectin
Prince
Posts: 3760
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:54 am

Post by fectin »

So. If you had a gun to your head and had to build a feat-points system around the core feats, which was extensible to all WOTC feats, what things would you think about to make it least bad?
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
Seerow
Duke
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:46 pm

Post by Seerow »

fectin wrote:So. If you had a gun to your head and had to build a feat-points system around the core feats, which was extensible to all WOTC feats, what things would you think about to make it least bad?
Probably something like giving a feat point every level, with 3 extra points at level 1 (much like skill points). Average feat cost set at 3, and any feat too useless to justify taking even at 1 point just need to be rewritten.

Everything else boils down pretty much to feat pricing. Like the actual concept isn't awful. All feats are not created equal, and the Feat Point system attempts to address that. Probably the reason it is hated so much is because it is an interesting concept whose execution makes you want to stab the person for fucking up something so horribly.

Also go ahead and give Fighters a feat point progression that looks something like a Psiwar's PP progression. That way he no longer has any dead levels, and at higher levels he can pick up a whole new feat chain at once. He'll still suck, but I mean that's the price you pay for putting "Fighter" on your character sheet.

This probably means a core-only Fighter ends up with more points than he can reasonably spend, but whatever.
User avatar
deaddmwalking
Prince
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:33 am

Post by deaddmwalking »

I'd go with something like giving everyone 3 feat points per level (and allowing banking). Most feats would be 1-3 points, so there would be more feats overall. They're fun, and especially with the number available with splats, too few of them get to be used. I'd probably adjust pre-reqs as well.
Post Reply