[Review]Violation: Rape in Gaming

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Ancient History
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[Review]Violation: Rape in Gaming

Post by Ancient History »

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Someone once observed that the idea of being a teenager is a relatively recent concept; an idea that was born out of the increasing prosperity of the Western world, and more than a little by the creation of a new popular culture that catered to the market of moneyed teenagers. It's why you don't see six-year olds hawking newspapers and smoking cigarettes on the streets of New York City today, and more than a little it's been responsible for the very unusual trend of pop culture being age-categorized, and eventually growing up or being rediscovered to respectability. After all, we're the generation where toys went from "he'll grow out of those" to Todd McFarlane museum-quality collectibles, and animation-ghetto Saturday morning cartoons are being re-released on slick-covered DVDs to cater to the grown-up market.

One of the things that's relatively new is the academic interest in pop culture. That's really really recent, especially anything that goes into analysis, theory, or philosophy instead of straight histories and biographies. It's a weird mix because I don't think the people that want to talk about these things like grown-ups have quite gotten over the mindset of treating their material as, well, just another book or body of literature. So we get things like New Critical Essays on H. P. Lovecraft and Sexual Ideology in the Works of Alan Moore, both books that have their vital fluid pumping organ in about the right place, but both of which are also rather off the mark and full of shit that people wrote to get published with trendy buzzwords rather than have any sort of deep insight or do the fucking research.

Until now, I haven't seen a comparable effort for gaming - Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress and
Everything I Need to Know I Learned from Dungeons & Dra​gons: One Woman's Quest to Trade Self-Help for Elf-Help
by Shelly Mazzanoble are rather twee works where Shelly seems to assume that having a pair of ovaries is a good substitute for a set of brains, and Sex, Dice, and Gamer Chicks by Johnny Nexus and James Desborough is rather more of the same - these people, having been in the gaming scene for years and with some talent for writing, assume that they have something worthwhile to say on the subject, but mostly they just offer some rather stale observations and anecdotes. Unlike real academics, they have no real analytic tools at their disposal, and mistake anecdotes and generalized statements for serious grown-up talk about sex and gaming.
Okay, just to be fair: I hate Johnny Nexus because I suffered through his terrible novel Game Night, so that might be affecting my evaluation of his bit.
Violation: Rape in Gaming Culture is less like Sex, Dice, and Gamer Chicks and more like Sexual Ideology in the Works of Alan Moore: a collection of essays around the theme of rape in gaming, edited by Clarisse Thorn and Julian Dibbell. There's 10 essays from 1993's "A Rape in Cyberspace" to 2012's "Does Tomb Raider's Lara Croft Really Have to be a Survivor of a Rape Attempt?" While most of these seem most relevant to video games, a couple are strictly about RPGs, and I'll cover each in turn.
10% of the profits from this book go to the EFF, which is weird but I support the Electronic Frontier Foundation, so that's part of the reason I finally bought this.
Post-TOC, Pre-Introduction, there is a quote:
If Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.
~ Marcus Brigstocke
Introduction: Reflections on Game Rape, Feminism, Sadomasochism, And Selfhood

...Okay, the title isn't really making me look forward to this, but let's see where is goes. The writer is Clarisse Thorn, one of the editors, whose little bio-piece here let's us know that she's a feminist S&M writer who has worked for both traditional print journalism and Jezebel. She has her own website, but I'll let you find it. I can't say I've read anything of hers, but I also can't say I haven't because Jezebel is one of the few GawkerMedia sites not blocked at work and things get slow sometimes.

The introduction starts out with a quote from "a 2007 game review on SomethingAwful, a comedy website that profiles horrifying geek media" - which is maybe missing the point a little, considering SA had that whole "Horrors of Porn" series out there for a while. It's still surprising to me to find books that cite non-academic, media-centric pop culture sites. Maybe I'm not just used to it, but it still feels a bit wild west in that nobody quite does it in the same way and the snippets, taken out of their web context, read weird on the printed page.

The actual point of the quote (RapeLay) is, I think, just to sort of shock the reader. Certainly Thorn doesn't actually discuss it much, as the actual opening to her introduction amounts to: "For most people, rape in gaming is an odd and unfamiliar concept." She doesn't say it quite like that, but that's the gist, and...well, I don't quite fucking buy it. One might as well say, "For most people, rape in a fast-food restaurant is an odd and unfamiliar concept." It seems to assume a level of innocence or relevance completely absent from the subject at hand - certainly, rape in books, plays, film, television, and pornography isn't particularly odd or unfamiliar in most concepts, so why the fuck should gaming be singled out as "huh?"

Thorn does a quick blur-the-line about "gaming" as the Olympics, beer pong, and gambling to electronic gaming (erotic roleplay and TTRPGs are not mentioned), and zeroes in on the latter by discussing how rape isn't hard-coded into World of Warcraft or Super Mario Bros - and that this gives the false impression to many "mainstream" gamers that there is no rape in gaming, but as the essays in the book will show, there are many types of roleplay and it just isn't show. Honestly, I don't think she's quite making the point she wants to make here.

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"Loser gets a paddle up their ass."

Finally, Thorn gets to the meat of the intro: she read Julian Dibbell's A Rape in Cyberspace and wanted to learn more about it because she's a feminist gamer into S&M. No really, that's what she says! Because of her interest in S&M, she knows about rapeplay and rape fantasies; because of her training as a feminist concerned with sexual assault, she's familiar with the real consequences of rape to the individual; and S&M rape fantasies are basically a subset of rape in gaming. Indeed, I think in another context you could make a strong study on rapeplay as a microcosm for rape fantasy, but I digress.

Three pages in, we get something like what Thorn probably should have led off with:
What makes rape different from other forms of violence showcased in games? How does rape in gaming, which has a real emotional effect on some participants, help us investigate ideas of psychological "reality?" Looking at rape in gaming provides an opportunity to reflect on how people construct our identities - as well as social norms around gender and violence.
Having said all that, Thorn goes to a quick history gaming that begins in 1974 with Dungeons & Dragons. This is sort of an expanded version of the "What is an RPG?" section from most game books, right down to a hypothetical Game Master/Player interaction scene. The history segues into talking about the other essays in the book, since the essays are all ordered chronologically and more-or-less go from early RPGs to console and PC games. There's some snippets on Vampire: the Masquerade, FATAL, and Kult, then she gets into LARPs, which leads to MUDs, which leads to MMOs. Bonus points for mentioning Custer's Revenge.

Honestly, I think maybe Thorn tries to cover too much here, and by necessity leaves too much out for this to be satisfying to my inner gamer or academic. Sample quotes:
Electronic games also opened a new possibility: characters without a player behind them might be raped.
I found the use of rape in Plundered Hearts particularly problematic. Yes, it was meant to be in the style of classic bodice-rippers, and rape is a trope of that genre. However, structurally the use of rape was deeply flawed.
These are a bit out of context, but I think the main problem I have with this mini-history is that Thorn still seems to feel a distinction between "mainstream" and "adult" games - something I rather see it as a spectrum of sexually explicit content - and pretty much ignores the development of the adult side of gaming. While giving your character stats and dice to roll was a relatively recent development, sexual roleplay has deep roots, and to ignore the history of erotic gaming and focusing in on just a couple examples plucked from the aether seems to do a disservice to what she's trying to accomplish, which is provide the (presumably non-gamer) reader with some perspective on the essays. I can grasp that Thorn is basically trying to say "the ways that people roleplay have gotten more intricate as the technology has ramped up, and rape as a sexual element is used in all of these to varied purpose and effect" - but she never quite comes out and says that, which is kind of frustrating.
There's a 2004 card game called Pimp: the Backhanding by White Wolf, in which players beat up prostitutes and force them onto the market. (The game does not distinguish between consensual sexual work and coercive sex trafficking.)
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Okay, I thought this was an April Fool's joke until I google'd it.
The grandparents of the gaming community, tabletop RPGs, now occupy a dwindling niche.
Ow. Twist the knife deeper.

...the introduction goes on. We're now on page 10, and Thorn is listing the issues, starting with Feminist Considerations. This is, I think, Thorn's best part of the introduction because she actually addresses rape in gaming in an intelligent way that had me nodding my head as I was reading. It's truly the best thing she's written so far, and deserves to be read by every gamer before they start writing a post about rape to their forum of choice.

She does lose a bit of steam when she gets to the Dickwolves.

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I won't go more into this than to say: yes, this was a bad joke; yes, people made a big deal about it; and yes, the PA guys were absolute dicks about it and still are.

Moving past that thought, Thorn continues to make several good, strong points - how rape in our society is still considered primarily a male-on-female crime, and how gamer culture is still primarily male-dominated. She doesn't push this into straw feminist territory though; she notes that the idea that "every male is a rapist" is rape myth bullshit. As she notes:
I think there's a big difference between a gaming group that engages in non-consensual rapey behavior against a real person, versus a game like RapeLay that includes a rape story against a piece of software.
Term of the book so far: "rape quests." Man, I always needed that for talking about Corruption of Champions.
Part B. of the introduction is on S&M Rulesets. I can see why she has it here, because she wants to take about rapeplay and being respectful of boundaries and whatnot, but I think that's almost an essay to itself to really discuss in terms of player-to-player RPGs, MUDs, and MMOs. I do think Thorn scores points for quoting from Mind's Eye Theater regarding player comfort and safety.
The Camarilla expects high-octane emotional situations.
Part C. is "The Social Influence of Porn and Video Games," which again could be extended into an essay, although the repeated use of the term "Porn Battlefield" is a little jarring for some reason. The main point to make is the commonality of arguments against sex/violence in both porn and gaming - with the common defense being that both provide a relatively harmless outlet for sexual or violent impulses - and then briefly trips into a "Sex Education Is the Cure for Many Social Ills" rant, which I kind of expected to segue into a call to arms for roleplaying as part of Sex Ed, but she never makes that specific statement.

Part D. (page 18 of the introduction, Crystal Dragon Jesus wept) is "Immersion." It's hard for me to parse this section, but that's what Google Image Search is for:
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Well, something like that. What Thorn is really getting at is that while some people might mock others for getting too into their characters, or for subjecting themselves to certain S&M experiences, immersive erotic roleplay is not necessarily negative and can also be beneficial in certain circumstances. Stealing a part of one quote from clinical psychologist Peggy Kleinplatz:
The notion that survivors of childhood sexual abuse can endeavor to resolve their pain via erotic explorations is bound to make many therapists recoil. Yet I have come to respect the power of (what some therapists might call), such "corrective emotional experiences" to transform one's relations with the past.
On the other side, Thorn offers a second-hand anecdote about a player in a "lock-in LARP" who got raped. This was disturbing on many levels, not least of which is that everybody stayed in character even after they found out what happened. However, even Thorn couldn't find any reference to this or "lock-in LARPs" online, so maybe (hopefully) take that one with a grain of salt.

So. A bit of a mixed bag of an introduction, which I think hit some good points but could have been substantially shorter. Tomorrow, on to the first essay!
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Post by fectin »

Pimp: the backhanding essentially was an April Fools joke, it was just one that was actually published.

Penny-Arcade are dicks, but they've always been dicks. I don't know who expected to go there and read nuanced and sensitive discussions of social issues, but they need their collective heads checked.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Am I missing something, or is the target audience for such a book really really small? Like pretty much just AH and the occasional professor cramming to put together a "gender roles in pop culture / digital media" type course syllabus small?
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Post by Ancient History »

Normally, I would agree with you. However, unlike the other books I've mentioned, this book is actually priced (~US$14) towards a general audience, not as a textbook. So I think the intended audience really is the Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress crowd.
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Post by JonSetanta »

ugh what did I just read here.

Although I applaud your mention of Jack Chick. Everything about RPGs is funnier when you shout Jack Chick jokes.
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Post by Grek »

I was completely unable to parse the OP. I get the feeling I don't have the academic credentials to be reading this thread.
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Post by Ancient History »

TL;DR version:

Violation: Rape in Gaming is a collection of essays spanning about 20 years about rape in gaming, being primarily but not solely concerned with rape in electronic gaming. The introduction is written by Clarisse Thorn, one of the editors. A self-described feminist gamer S&M writer, I feel that Thorn address some important points but tries to do too much, and so overreaches at several points.

There is some critical material of interest here - there's a convergence of themes involving various kinds of electronic gaming, tabletop RPGs, LARP, and S&M roleplay scenarios, and rape is one of the shared elements. Thorn is not a feminazi that says "all fictional instances of rape are bad" or "all men are potential rapists," and recognizes not only the utility of rapeplay, but that a significant differences exists between rape simulation games (where no humans are harmed), and roleplaying nonconsensual sex with other human players.
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Post by Whipstitch »

fectin wrote:Pimp: the backhanding essentially was an April Fools joke, it was just one that was actually published.

Penny-Arcade are dicks, but they've always been dicks. I don't know who expected to go there and read nuanced and sensitive discussions of social issues, but they need their collective heads checked.
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Post by Dean »

fectin wrote:Penny-Arcade are dicks, but they've always been dicks. I don't know who expected to go there and read nuanced and sensitive discussions of social issues, but they need their collective heads checked.
I think the dickwolves joke is fine and unless you know something I'm not seeing they don't need their anything checked. The dickwolves joke is a solid joke, I chuckled. As comedians that is their job and they have succeeded at their job. The idea that because they used the word "Rape" in a joke means they are necessarily sexist assholes is absurd. There are many funny jokes about rape. There are many funny jokes about violence and murder and genocide. Humor has always been focused on things taboo to speak about. Jokes about horrible things have been told by Carlin and Seinfeld and Chris Rock and Louis CK and every great comedian that has existed since the creation of the art form. Making the assumption that you know the topics that can and cannot be used for humor requires you to make the argument that every great comedian in history has been wrong and knows less about their craft than you do.
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Post by OgreBattle »

This reminds me that TGDMB had a 10 page thread about the topic of rape before:
Wolf/Dog Rape
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Post by Koumei »

It was a dumb joke and nothing more, without malevolence on their part.
However when people complained about it and overreacted, PA fans then defended them so rabidly (and indeed, started making rape threats), at which point the PA guys should have told their fans "That shit isn't cool". Apologising for the comic itself is entirely optional here, but distancing themselves from dickwolves that threaten rape would be a good move.

They didn't, and fell back on soft encouragement of it (not mentioning it and just focusing on "these people are mean and stupid for criticising us, also they're Hitler").

And that's basically what happens every time: they make a harmless stupid joke, other people overreact, then their fans go mental at the people who overreacted (note: telling them "hahaha it's just a comic, don't be such a drama queen" would be entirely within reason) and make threats and generally act creepy, and PA more or less endorses that.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Fectin's "they need their collective heads checked" refers to the people going to PA expecting "nuanced and sensitive discussions of social issues," not the PA guys themself, who he said less contentious things about (likely quite deliberately, to avoid having the discussion we are now one step closer to having totally having).

The complaints about the original comic (which was a fairly standard bit of dark/shock humor with the terrible thing serving as punchline being rape) was that rape victims exist and being reminded of shitty things that happened to you is shitty. That is obviously true and very unfortunate and I have nothing but sympathy for people who've experienced traumatic enough events (whether rape-related or otherwise) that simply being reminded of them causes them further suffering. That's an actual problem real people have to deal with and it makes their lives worse. But it's also a problem that is basically unsolvable and attempting to solve it is a road down which lies madness, because the things that distress people that they might not wish to be exposed to is completely arbitrary. I don't think it's feasible or desirable to bubblewrap culture for the sake of spared feelings. Dark humor is okay. Shock humor is okay. Obviously, jokes that actually promote rape as a Cool Thing To Do are bad and terrible, but this isn't one of those cases and I don't think anyone was arguing that it was at this point.

The second comic was a flippant (non-)response along the lines "the previous comic in no way encouraged rape, so stop bitching," which is insensitive, a misunderstanding of the original complaint, and also true. Now, could they have come out with a much more level-headed response that tackled the actual complaint also without admitting wrongdoing? Yes, yes they could have. But I find the response to the second comic super baffling, because instead of being called insensitive assholes (which they were), they got called... rape apologists. Being an asshole to someone who asks you to self-censor on the basis that rape is traumatic to be reminded of is not rape apologia, it's just... being an asshole. Pointing out that your comic did not actually make light of or encourage rape is not rape apologia, it's just... a non-sequitur in the given context. I'm not sure what reasoning lead part of the internet to believe that assholish non-sequiturs are rape apologia, but that is where things went and how.

Anyway, once the "promoting rape culture" bomb got dropped the MRA crowd showed up because it was another fight they could win and immediately everyone who agreed with PA looked worse by proxy, and someone put together a handy analysis of troll posts to really drive home that point. I think the lesson here is that if you're famous, don't argue with feminists on the internet. You will get a whole lot of 'support' that will leave you feeling slimy and violated, like you had just had a run-in with a pack of dickwolves. (I fucking had to. Don't you judge me. You all would have done the same! Every last one of you! P.S. trigger warnings: rape, bad jokes, stupid internet fights)
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Post by Whipstitch »

Yeah, Fectin's post was pretty clear, really.

Anyway, the original comic was fine by me. If anything, the theme of that comic is not that rape is intrinsically hilarious, but that someone who blithely ignores such suffering is a monster, not a hero. It's actually about as empathetic as you get out of Penny Arcade. The problem is virtually everything else that happened afterwards.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Speaking of the PA creators, when I saw what they actually looked like outside of their comic personas...

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I immediately thought of this scene from Berserk:
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Post by Starmaker »

DSMatticus wrote:The second comic was a flippant (non-)response along the lines "the previous comic in no way encouraged rape, so stop bitching," which is insensitive, a misunderstanding of the original complaint, and also true. (...) But I find the response to the second comic super baffling, because instead of being called insensitive assholes (which they were), they got called... rape apologists.
Not exactly. While the original clearly implies rape is horrible, the second comic can be understood to make fun of the suggestion that anyone can become a rapist due to media exposure: "It's possible that you read our cartoon and became a rapist as a direct result." While their first cartoon is fine, there are jokes such as "Why do women bitch about rape? They should be proud someone risked life in jail to have sex with them", which are emphatically NOT FINE even though no one actually becomes a rapist as a direct result of one either.
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Post by Chamomile »

Grek wrote:I was completely unable to parse the OP. I get the feeling I don't have the academic credentials to be reading this thread.
It took me once or twice, but I got it in the end. Mostly it bugs me that he doesn't elaborate much on what the essay is actually saying, only whether or not he agrees with it.

I never understood how any person genuinely concerned about rape would consider that comic pro-rape. The joke only works if rape is a bad thing.
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Post by JonSetanta »

I've read "Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress". It was shit.
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Post by Stahlseele »

i like how they went with tentacles on the cover . .
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Why are the PA guys so piglike and bald?

As someone in the wrong side of academia, I'm interested in what these essays have to say.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

You know, I was like in 6th grade when I first read the 'A Rape in Cyberspace' essay through the Mudconnect.com forums and even then I thought that it was one of the most inane things I've ever read in my life. And this was way before Internet 2.0 became a thing.

It was exactly like as if someone made the 'Rape' in 'A Rape of the Lock' more literal and scrubbed all of the rather obvious satire out of that mock-epic. Seriously, there are no words to describe how ridiculous it was to read the IRC equivalent of a clown sticking a knife up someone's ass as actual PTSD-causing trauma that shook the foundations of the cyberspace community to its core. What the fucking hell?
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Post by Ancient History »

A RAPE IN CYBERSPACE (1993)
By Julian Dibbell
Call me Dr. Bombay. A good many months ago - let's say about halfway between the first time you heard the words information superhighway and the first time you wish you never had - I found myself tripping now and then down the well-traveled information lane that leads to LambdaMOO, a very large and very busy rustic mansion built entirely of words.
Set the wayback machine to 1993, when it was still possible to use the term "information superhighway" unironically. JD was living in NYC and while today he would be doing an instance with his guild in WoW or managing his virtual apartment in SecondLife or something, back then he was chatting and roleplaying (in the strict no-system sense of the word) in a MOO - LambdaMoo is in fact the oldest running MOO, and Dibbell wrote an entire book My Tiny Life describing the then-novel experience of interacting socially with people online. So, a bit of a pioneer. This essay was originally an article that was later included in My Tiny Life.

Anyway, as Dibbell account, a nefarious user called Mr. Bungle happened into the LambdaMOO's happening living room chatspace and "began by using his voodoo doll to force one of the room's occupants to sexually service him in a variety of more or less conventional ways." One of the resident users had enough privileges and kicked Mr. Bungle out of the living room, and he wandered over into various private rooms (private messages?) and continued to post this stuff, getting increasingly more violent and bizarre. Eventually, an admin was alerted and "caged" Mr. Bungle to where he couldn't interact with the others anymore.

The "voodoo doll" in this case is an object in the MUD that Mr. Bungle had programmed to let him attribute actions to other characters, doing things like eating their own public hair and violating themselves with cutlery. Dibbell takes some pains to explain the thing slowly, because he's writing to an audience that obviously isn't familiar with all this "virtual reality" stuff.
As if against her will, Moondreamer jabs a steak knife up her ass, causing immense joy. You hear Mr._Bungle laughing evilly in the distance.
This might not have been the first "rape" in cyberspace, but it was probably the first reported one, and it started spawning the same questions that people ask now. Naturally, Mr. Bungle's victims were emotionally upset - Moondreamer was reportedly in tears - and Dibbell tries to explain how virtual actions have real consequences, even if the exact meaning can easily get lost between the internet and real life.
Netsex, tinysex, virtual sex - however you name it, in real-life reality it's nothing more than a 900-line encounter stripped of even the vestigial physicality of the voice. And yet, as many a wide-eyed newbie can tell you, it's possibly the headiest experience the very heady world of MUDs has to offer.
I'd say something like "we're working on that technology," but honestly, we have robots that can give handjobs now.

And, as Dibbell goes on to elaborate, people can get physically and mentally engaged in virtual sex - and how, in the aftermath of the incident, the community discussed what to do about it. Eventually, one of the victims called for Mr. Bungle to be "toaded" (character erased and account locked), and a petition quickly went up. However, the long-suffering MOO admins (the only ones that could issue the toad command), had decided a few months previously that they weren't going to handle any of this social crap anymore and just maintain the back end. So the quest to punish one MUDder for virtual rape morphed into a sort of referendum on the socio-political structure of LambdaMOO as a whole.

One of the options presented was the "@gag" tool, which would allow users to ignore whatever the offending "gagged" user posted - but it would only be blocked from their screen and still posted to the room at large. So a character could be getting virtually raped in front of the whole living room and not know it. This solution was deemed non-ideal.

So, three days after the Mr. Bungle incident, a bunch of users came together to chat about the future of LambdaMOO, which is where Dribbell arrived and first learned of it.
Surrounding these, however, a tangle of weighty side issues proliferated. What, some wondered, was the real-life legal status of the offense? Could Bungle's university administrators punish him for sexual harassment? Could he be prosecuted under California state laws against obscene phone calls? Little enthusiasm was shown for pursuing either of these lines of action, which testifies both to the uniqueness of the crime and to the nimbleness with which the discussants were negotiating its idiosyncrasies.
Eventually, Mr. Bungle appeared in the chatroom and when prompted as to why he'd done it, posted:
I engaged in a bit of a psychological device that is called thought-polarization, the fact that this is not RL simply added to heighten the affect of the device. It was purely a sequence of events with no consequences on my RL existence.
In other words:
Image

Eventually, without resolving any of the wider issues brought up for discussion, one of the admins quietly toaded Mr. Bungle, and the lead admin in charge of the whole thing set up a system where the community as a whole could vote on any use of admin powers for future events.

And, pretty much as you'd predict, a few days after the toading a "new" character named Dr. Jest arrived.

Again, this isn't much new to anyone that's using the internet today, but back in those heady days when everything was being defined, this was probably the first in-depth and accurate account of a virtual rape, a discussion of what that meant, and its ultimate aftermath, and it's mostly a second- or third-hand account, not a bunch of chat transcripts. Still, I think this was a very solid piece to lead out this book - it may not answer any questions, but it does at least present many of the issues involved.
Ikeren
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Post by Ikeren »

she notes that the idea that "every male is a rapist" is rape myth bullshit.
To be clear, Camile Paglia and Catherine MacKinnon both argue things that really do equate to this: they exist, and they're regarded as something loosely resembling serious feminist political philosophers (I read them in a feminist political philosophy class taught by a competent person at a decent academic institution). Their ideas have some traction, but not much.

The simple of it is an extension of the "in unequal power structures, no consent is good consent." --- Teacher/student consent isn't good consent even when they're both over the age of consent in whatever region they are, and we generally don't have too much trouble with this. If you're a feminist arguing that their is a strong patriarchy, suddenly women can never meaningfully consent to sex, and all sex is thus ethically suspect.

Which is generally insulting to both of women and men, depending on how strong you think the patriarchy is on the specific power dynamic between given sexual partner A and B.

So these people exist, but they're generally regarded as interesting viewpoints for academics and have little more value than that.
I was completely unable to parse the OP. I get the feeling I don't have the academic credentials to be reading this thread.
Hilariously, I have pretty much precisely the academic credentials to parse the OP.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Ancient History wrote:Again, this isn't much new to anyone that's using the internet today, but back in those heady days when everything was being defined, this was probably the first in-depth and accurate account of a virtual rape, a discussion of what that meant, and its ultimate aftermath, and it's mostly a second- or third-hand account, not a bunch of chat transcripts. Still, I think this was a very solid piece to lead out this book - it may not answer any questions, but it does at least present many of the issues involved.
No, fuck that. That entire essay is tone-deaf whining. TinyMUD, the ancestor of all modern MUDs/MOOs/MUXes/etc. including LambdaMOO came out in 1989. FurryMUCK came out in 1990. Hell, Tapestries MUCK -- a game entirely based on freeform furry sex -- came out in fall 1991. Hell, LambdaMOO was out in 1990.

Unless the people from Lambda were the most sheltered, clueless people on the Internet the author of that drivel was clearly taking poetic license to create a mock-epic that didn't know it was a mock-epic. And I think that the latter is fucking obvious to anyone who reads the whole thing in historical context.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
fectin
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Post by fectin »

Ikeren wrote:
she notes that the idea that "every male is a rapist" is rape myth bullshit.
To be clear, Camile Paglia and Catherine MacKinnon both argue things that really do equate to this
Huh? I was pretty sure Paglia only ever made this point for the specific purpose of calling it bullshit. I mean, she's a good rhetorician, so I suppose even her strawmen could be convincing, but I'd like a reference to anywhere she seriously argued that.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Post by Koumei »

Ikeren wrote:
she notes that the idea that "every male is a rapist" is rape myth bullshit.
To be clear, Camile Paglia and Catherine MacKinnon both argue things that really do equate to this:
Minus ten points
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
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