The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

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Incarnadine
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The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Incarnadine »

Well, that's not MHO. It's RdMsHO, according to Ramnza. Go for it, guys. Let's have some quantification of suckage.
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fbmf
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by fbmf »

My Personal Geek Girl wrote:
Let's have some quantification of suckage.


Me over at Nifty, revised and adapted slightly wrote:
Things don't suck if you couldn't make a build that did exactly the same thing better.

Things suck if you could make exactly the same thing better by a different mechanism.

So Fighter 3 SUCKS because taking 2 levels of Fighter and one level of absolutely any other warrior class is better.

Sacred Exorcist does not SUCK because it provides a powerful turning and abjuration incentive which can't be duplicated or exceeded by other means.

That's what it means to suck and not suck. If someone finds a way to do something superior to a second something - that second something sucks. If such a superior build does not exist - that something does not suck.

Note that this is exactly the same mechanism by which deranged and deluded people decide that things are BROKEN.


The particular case RdM had in mind was the CR 7 creature that had twenty attacks in a round, which they used to grapple with improved grab and inflict 1d6+6 damage per hit. We will ignore their temporary ability drain (Constitution) for the moment.

Game On,
fbmf
Jack_Lurch
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Jack_Lurch »

No offense, fbmf, but I'm not sure your definition of "suck" applies here, unless you are saying that the WotC Monster series does not suck as compared to Sword & Sorcery.

I don't know much about S&S, but I have heard of the "CR Problem" with their material before.

This wouldn't be one of those plant creatures, would it?

-Jack
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Ramnza »

Well, to be honest, yeah it was. It was a Leeching Willow tree from the Creature Collection Dark Menagerie. It did 1d3 of con damage for every branch that grapples an PC. It's a plant so its immune to mind-influencing efects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, criticial hits, polymorphing. The CR is 7. But these guys can keep adding attacks to the PCs including those who are grappled.They have the improved grab ability, they take half damage from piercing weapons, they blood drain (con damage), they have plant immunities, and a number of attacking branches equal to twice their hit dice. Let's not think about a gargantuan leeching willow. Their one source of anguish is fire (double damage).
I am found of using the Creature Collection because the people I play with are so familiar with the Monster Manual that they know nearly everything in the Monster Manual and it seems that the encounter loses that little punch of the unknown when they say "Oh, is that all." But this is not the first time I have put them up against a creature that's CR is way out of line. What's a good way to fix that as a DM? Especially when you think about handing out experience and then the complaining begins, "Hey those plants were bull@#*%" :bricks:
Jack_Lurch
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Jack_Lurch »

Ramnza wrote:
What's a good way to fix that as a DM?


Honestly, and this applies to WotC stuff as well as 3rd Party, is to read over the monster entry instead of just relying on CR. It won't help if the creature has an ability you are not familiar with or have never seen in play, but it will give you a much better idea than just looking at the CR.

-Jack
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fbmf
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by fbmf »

Jack,

The lady asked us to quantify suck, which I did. I agree it's not the best and most relevant for this discussion, but she is an administrator and I was trying to be compliant. :wink:

Game On,
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Username17
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Username17 »

Actually, that quantification of Suck is pretty appropriate. You find a balance point, anything which is in all ways worse than that "is the SUCK". When you are attempting to quantify a book, the question is whether the writing sucks.

So really, that means that anything which is written worse than something Andy Collins writes - sucks. Now I don't actually have a copy of the monster in question, but from the description I will add the following:

1> Any creature which fights with Natural Weapons under the 3.5 rules gets one - count them ONE attack when grappling, unless they in turn have Rake or Constriction (although they can use their other attacks against other enemies if they choose to grapple with one appendage at -20).

2> It's a Tree, doesn't that mean that it has no appreciable movement rate compared to a 7th level Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger?

Putting those two into perspective, its great number of attacks is essentially meaningless - in reality it simply attacks however many characters it can reach (probably one or two), and then gets a grapple check (which with 20 limbs it will get a +36 bonus on - so I think we can assume it will win), then the PC is grappled.

Thereafter, the PC gets one attack at -4 with a light weapon (or they can attempt to overcome that grapple mod - good frickin luck!), while the rest of the party has to stand back and use ranged weaponry (and as the tree is huge or something, have no chance of hitting their companion). Meanwhile, the tree is doing natural weapon damage once per round to the character in question, who is losing therefore about 2 points of Con per turn.

So the party has between 4 and 10 rounds to save their friend by killing the Tree. The Tree is immune to just about everything except damage, and has 10 hit dice and takes half damage from the first most obvious weapon: Bows. However, it takes double damage from the next most obvious weapon: Fireball.

So, can a 7th level party win this fight? I would expect so. It would be pretty freaky to be caught in it, but actually I think it poses little real threat to a well balanced party with a good grounding in tactics.

The problem here is that it is written in such a manner as it implies that it is handing out about 20-40 points of Con Damage every round - which would translate into a TPK in just two rounds of combat. In actuality it is not, but unfotunately I don't think the rules minutiae of why that is was known to the author of the monster - which means that the writing SUCKS.

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Ramnza
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Ramnza »

Thanks for the clarification. The writing in the Combat descriptor never suggested that the Leeching Willow dealt 20-40 points of con damage, which yeah, would mean TPK. It was actually how it described the number of attacks the tree got. Perhaps it's me, never rule out that it could just be me. I mean I could be just full of it, but the combat descriptor leaves much to be desired.

Creature Collection wrote:
Leeching Willows have a number of attacking branches equal to twice their hit dice. They may only direct up to two new branch attacks (not counting any branches already grappling the victim) at any one opponent each round, but they may double attack all creatures within their reach each round--utilizing up to their maximum number of attacking branches.


I might be reading this wrong...:confused: Did it just say that the tree can attack one opponent, within its 15foot reach, once a round and then attack everyone else twice?

EDIT: Fixed quote tags - fbmf
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Username17 »

I don't think the author knew how D&D grappling works at all.

It sounds like each branch is supposed to be acting as a separate grappling/attacking entity somehow - possibly even with their own individual locations or something.

Without reading the entire entry and holding my head for a long time I don't think I can salvage what they meant. And without knowing the much, I can't possibly determine whether it is overpowered or not.

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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by User3 »

What exactly do you need Frank to figure out if the author bites or the creature is just that powerful? I don't mind typing it out.:wave:
Ramnza
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Ramnza »

Ok, that was me forgetting to sign in...hehe
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Username17 »

OK, here is what I am not understanding:

1> Apparently it inflicts a d3 of temporary Con damage with evey tendril.

2> Apparently it can direct up to two more branches to attack each creature it can reach than it did last turn against that chaarcter (meaning that if it attacked with zero branches last turn it can attack with two).

3> It has improved grab.

4> The statement "not counting any branches already grappling the victim" indicates that supposedly it can somehow send more than one piece of itself into a grapple as separate grapplers.

With 1, 2, and 3 together it sounds like it would do a lot more damage to people if it voluntarily doesn't use Improved Grab. After all, grappling is limited to 1 weapon/round - while it is going to be attacking people with 2 or more sources of Con damage if it doesn't grapple.

But number four is a tricky one - if it can actually throw each of its tendrils into a grapple separately - or even better have one tendril grapple and pin while the others attack a helpless target - then that's pretty grim (although it does fix the intellectual problem of it fighting better if it doesn't grab people).

Mostly I think I need to know how it is supposed to fight while grappling, and how its Con Drain works. The statement you quoted doesn't share a whole lot in common with the way the rules normally work.

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Ramnza
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Ramnza »

Here's the whole combat descriptor


Creature Collection wrote: Even though they cannot move from the place where their roots are set, leeching willows still possess formidable combat potential. A number of its long drooping branches are actually thin, hollow tubes that it lashes about, furiously attacking any living creature that comes within its reach, attempting to grasp its victims and then drain their blood.

Leeching willows have a number of attacking branches equal to twice their hit dice. They may only direct up to two new branch attacks (not counting any branches already grappling the victim) at any one opponent each round, but they may double attack all creatures within their reach each round--utilizing up to their maximum number of attacking branches.

A leeching willow may not have more than one branch grappling a Tiny creautre and one more branch maximum for each size level above Tiny (i.e., two for Small, three for Medium-size, four for Large), except that it has no limit on targest size Huge or larger.

Branches are AC 18, hardness 2 and may sustain 10 points of slashing damage before they are severed.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the leeching willow must hit with a branch attack.

Blood Drain (Ex): Each round that one of the leeching willow's branches graplles a creature, in addition to its normal grappling damage, the branch drains blood for 1d3 temporary Consitution damage.


Let me know if you need anything else. It's all there, word for word.
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Username17 »

OK, it has a nonstandard grappling progression which is not defined. I was afraid of that. Essentially: the writing sucks.

Here's how a combat is supposed to go between it and a single enemy:

1> Tree makes a tendril attack, inflicting damage on a hit.

2> If it is a hit, the tendril can make a grapple check (bonus: ??? this is a non-standard grappling mode, so I can't begin to figure this one) to hold the target.

3> Tree makes a second tendril attack on the target, regardless of whether it is grappled now or not (?), inflicting damage on a hit.

4> If the second tendril hits, it can also attempt to hold the target, at whatever grapple bonus an independent tendril is supposed to have.

---

Target's turn: The target is now presumably grappled by one or more of the Tendrils - and will now attempt to escape or to attack the tree or the tendrils with a light weapon - whatever.

---

Tree's turn:

1> For each of the two tendrils which grabbed the target and were not cut off, it inflicts a d3 of Con damage on the target.

2> Each of the tendrils grappling the target can make a grapple check to squeeze or make a regular melee attack at -4 to inflict damage.

3> Each of the tendrils from last turn which have not been severed and have not grappled the victim can now attack, as above.

4> The Tree can send in two more tendrils - as above.

---

etc.

That's how it is supposed to work. Which is odd because there isn't a damn thing in the rest of the game that works like that. As to whether this is game balanced or not - that depends entirely on how large the tendril grapple bonus is and how much damage it does. Honestly, it sounds like one fireball and the whole tree is up in smoke - branches and all - so I wouldn't qualify it as much of a threat to a 7th level party.

Although it is one heck of a headache to adjudicate, what with the fact that it uses the most thouroughly confusing and poorly thought out section of the combat rules and then gleefully uses them while having a number of specific (and important) exceptions to the normal procedure built in without actually calling attention to the fact (causing me to believe that someone in fact wrote a grappling monster without understanding the grappling rules).

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Ramnza
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Re: The CR in the Creature Collection Sucks?

Post by Ramnza »

Well, it's good to know that it wasn't me who was having difficulty understanding how this creature works. Many thanks Frank. :peace:
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