Dragon's Crown: The Playing

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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus »

Kaelik wrote:No, the correct response would be the recognition of hyperbole as a legitimate means of communicating.
No. Hyperbole is not a magical fountain of validity. When people unironically call their boss a nazi, they're being stupid, and you would be totally justified in saying so.

But if you do not think Surgo would have looked stupid (or are merely willing to say that he wouldn't have to win an internet argument, whichever) for having launched similar complaints against other games with similar sexual content, then I do not and cannot have an argument to sway you. That is an ultimately subjective premise I assumed would hold uncontested, because, well, those look like really stupid statements in the context of games like even God of War or The Witcher, which are both pretty heavy on the fan service and the sexy times.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

DSMatticus wrote:other games with similar sexual content
I really like the look of Dragon's crown, and it's game play reviews very high. As soon as Sony ships it across the non-existent digital ocean and it fucking gets here I want a copy.

In the mean time. I'm pretty sure I can identify the real source of all the hand wringing bullshit over it.

It's the art style. Not the fan service or the "sexual" content or the objectification or the boobies or the skimpy clothing or anything else. It is the STYLE in which that is represented. Because its all cartoon to the point of caricature. A style that I certainly think is bold and honest and fun.

But sadly a style which looks like a parody. And because it looks like a parody it looks like an attack on all those other games with the same content that DON'T have a bold eye catching cartoony style that clearly highlights that content. And even though it is I think rather NOT a parody or attack on that sort of thing, and more just, well, openly that sort of thing... there is the TERRIBLE DANGER that it might make these people look back on their other games, their other favorite games, like the Witcher or God of War or whatever the fuck because to varying degrees objectification of women is rampant in the medium, and have to REALIZE that they are doing the same thing too.

And they aren't ready to admit that. They want to pretend their other games are perfectly perfect and acceptable bastions of sexual equality and upstanding moral rectitude. And, the way Fan Boys work, that means ripping apart anything that looks like it might even begin to be an attack on that belief. Even if it isn't, it just needs to LOOK that way in a handful of screenshots, like Dragon's Crown does.

It's a pity because I think it would be better all around for everyone if games with lots of fan service and boobs and objectification were more up front and out there with it, like Dragon's Crown, and the rest of the games that wanted to pretend to be "normal" and "acceptable" and "equal" actually did that by actually doing that instead of being dude bro games packed full of all sorts of sexism but with a less flamboyantly noticeable art style.

Anyway, that's my best guess why there is such a double standard in play on criticism of Dragon's Crown. Because it's basically the kid pointing out the emperor has no clothes, even though really it didn't want to do that and it just wanted to dance around naked along with the emperor.
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Post by DragonChild »

I thought this thread couldn't get any stupider.

Then PhoneLobster happened.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

DragonChild wrote:Herp Derp
You explain the highly selective outrage on Dragon's Crown then.

Because it IS a double standard and the only explanations I have are either...

"Hands Off Our Boobs!" crowd fan boys over-reacting to a perceived bad review on Polygon.

OR "Our Boobs are fine YOUR Boobs are Sexist (and may draw attention to our boobs not being fine)" fan boys. And looking at this thread and the way the critics are handling the double standard argument here it is pretty damn clear the second option is in play.
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Post by DragonChild »

How about the fact that people are generally becoming more vocal about it, and have had enough, and Dragon Crown has had the misfortune of being defended in ways that outright make it worse, like the artist accusing male critics of being gay?

Or alternatively that the art style for Dragon's Crown IS worse, or better still, you're just an idiot.

You bring up Witcher, and Witcher was CONSTANTLY bashed for its sexism when it first came out and is still cast in that light, despite being a lot better than shit like most Bioware RPGs in that regard.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

DragonChild wrote:You bring up Witcher
...oh I see... you didn't actually read the thread, just my post.

I guess I should be flattered.
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Post by DragonChild »

Fine. The other idiot brings up witcher, and you try to use it to make a point while simultaneously shitting yourself.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

I think I'll just let that last response of yours hang out there. In plain view. Where everyone can read it.
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Post by name_here »

Yes, because no one ever complained about The Witcher having too much sex.

I mean, no one except everyone.
Last edited by name_here on Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

DSMatticus wrote:those look like really stupid statements in the context of games like even God of War or The Witcher, which are both pretty heavy on the fan service and the sexy times.
Then you must be a fucking idiot, because I haven't played either of those games, and I still know they are shitty games with shitty sex rammed in for no reason. I know that because even though I never saw sex for the several minutes of gameplay before I told those games to fuck themselves, I heard people talking about how they had a pointless shitty sex minigame (God of War) and a bunch of sexing for no reason (Witcher).

And while only the first one actually pisses me off (maybe the Witcher would if I saw it, I don't know), I still know about them because those complaints are extremely common and perfectly reasonable.
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Post by Aryxbez »

I'd say I dig the art to this game, fan service aside, the exaggerations fit the Sword & Sorcery vibe it's got going, though the fairly low level threats they're facing does make the flashiness of it all seem not as awesome. I've been raised on exaggerations and power fantasy's, and don't really care for how the media decided to be overly sensitive/easily offended. That said, if the art isn't ones preference, and not something can look past for the gameplay, then fair enough. Albeit I have not played it yet, I do still stand by this.

Surgo had made a comment of it being a "H-game", I assume that to mean "Hentai". Though it has sexual like material in it (partial nudity, japan-only minigame? & art style), it's focus is that of a Side Scrolling brawler, so I would find it inaccurate to say it's a sex game (though it is heavy on the power fantasy).

Oh, and to Kaelik, why are God of War & Witcher bad games? Latter I've heard was a bit off, and rather realistic, where made some improvments in the 2nd apparently (though mostly just heard how have good storytelling going on).
Last edited by Aryxbez on Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

Aryxbez wrote:so I would find it inaccurate to say it's a sex game (though it is heavy on the power fantasy).
And Surgo didn't mean it is literally a such a game, and anyone who believed he did is retarded.
Aryxbez wrote:Oh, and to Kaelik, why are God of War & Witcher bad games? Latter I've heard was a bit off, and rather realistic, where made some improvments in the 2nd apparently (though mostly just heard how have good storytelling going on).
I'm not saying that they are in particular bad games. I just don't like them. Witcher is just a boring grindfest without my girlfriend on skype grinding next to me, I'd rather just play some MMO.

God of War seemed to be an actiony hacky slash game that hit all the holes. Every fight was really easy no matter what you did, including button mash, and it all felt very samey. Like if Prince of Persia 3d versions just removed all the platforming. And then you would randomly run into some stupid boss fight that was 90% buttonmashing quick time events. I didn't take that shit from Force Unleashed, a game that let me throw people all over the fucking place with force blasts, why would I take it from a generic hack slash.
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Post by Whipstitch »

Aryxbez wrote:I've been raised on exaggerations and power fantasy's, and don't really care for how the media decided to be overly sensitive/easily offended. That said, if the art isn't ones preference, and not something can look past for the gameplay, then fair enough. Albeit I have not played it yet, I do still stand by this.
It wasn't just the media, guy. The fact that you cannot relate to an opinion isn't actually evidence that other people's opinions on a subject are disingenuous. Plus, you know, ambivalence is a legit reaction to these sorts of things too. I like mindless hack and slashers but the way this title has been handled at various junctures is a mark against it in my book and in any case merely being benign, bog-standard entertainment usually isn't enough to convince me to pay cash money for something anyway.
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Post by OgreBattle »

I'll be getting Dragon's Crown in a few days. Really looking forward to it. George Kamitani's a pretty incredible guy, he is the character designer, in-game artist, game designer, director, and CEO of vanillaware all in one. Dragon's Crown is truly an 'indie' game, he created the game he always wanted to do.



My brother and I have written about the artwork, you can check it out here:
http://art-eater.com/2013/03/from-micke ... c-homages/
Image
We're working on a follow up article.




Kotaku also asked me to do an analysis of the artwork in the game here:
http://hokutoandy.kinja.com/another-wee ... -483754737

Image
Image
Everything in Dragon's Crown has beautiful hand painted attention applied to it.


*There's gameplay vids here and there, showing off more of the wonderful homages this game makes:
Last edited by OgreBattle on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:00 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Clearly some advertising bots have started hacking into players accounts.

The inhuman robotic shilling gives it away.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
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Post by Chamomile »

I had to doublecheck and make sure that it was an actual established user posting that, and not one of those bots we get now and again. I'm not joking.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Not sure if that's a pointed joke, but OgreBattle's account hasn't been hacked considering his post history.

But now we have a 50/50 shot of guessing his name.
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Post by Maxus »

Let's mail things to them both to make sure we get the right one.

Anyway, I can see a lot of character design influence from Odin Sphere.

Compare Brigan and the Dwarf. Or Mercedes and the Dragon's Crown Fairy.

I really need to pick Dragon Crown's up, but Tales of Xillia has been fun lately...
Last edited by Maxus on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

I've often wondered why the anti-sex arm of feminism gets upset about one thing and not at another. I'm pretty sure it's "for no reason". The books, movies, video games, and table top games that get mini crusades shaking their fist about their objectification of women appears on first, second, and third look to be wholly random. And I think that's the actual answer: it is random.

The hullabaloo over Dragon's Crown began when it was literally impossible to tell whether it actually contained anything that was patronizing or marginalizing of women. For all practical purposes, you cannot tell whether a character is a strong female role model or not based on how they look. Whether a character has big boobs or small boobs, covered breasts or bare breasts, a character could still be a fully realized character or a vapid gender stereotype.

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Post by Shrapnel »

Kaelik wrote:Clearly some advertising bots have started hacking into players accounts.

The inhuman robotic shilling gives it away.
At least it isn't some off-topic, outta-nowhere paragraph on cell phone blockers.
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Post by Whipstitch »

It's certainly somewhat random, but I wouldn't call that the same thing as unmotivated. People are weird. I think the arguments that get trotted out bother me more than the title itself.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by K »

The only thing about this argument that bothers me is that video gamers are united in claiming that video game violence doesn't cause violence in the real world, but video-game sexist is some kind of big deal and we need to protect the children from it. It really seems like the exact same issue: can art make people do bad things in the real world, and should we censor art?

(I won't even get into how video-game racism is barely remarked on at all. That damning on it's own merits.)

I do know one thing for sure: Dragon's Crown is the most talked about game of 2013, a weird thing for a retro-clone of a series of shitty coin-swallower games from the late 80s/90s that people used to play in the arcade only because it was one of the few games you could play with three of your friends at the same time. This game really should have perished in obscurity as wanky fan-service clones of shitty games are supposed to die.

This means that even if you think the art is the most evil thing in gaming to come out ever, this game is going to see massive sales because the haters can't stop talking about it. That's genius marketing.
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Post by DragonChild »

For what it's worth - I DO have a problem with video game violence, and am pretty disgusted by a lot of the games that glorify it without any sort of irony of taste to it, especially "real world" violence. I have major problems with the Call of Duty series, for instance.

I am also quite able to recognize a ton of games being stupidly racist, and have previously called Bioshock Infinite a pile of racist shit elsewhere.

I would be more than happy to discuss these, as well as why I think certain games in particular get attention, in another thread.

Edit: I think the video game violence thing is also used as a very popular strawman - basically, anybody who thinks that the media we consume might actually effect us clearly things video games turn us into violent sociopaths, right? Which isn't true, because you can think that and also just think it leads to desensitization of violence, aggressive behavior, general lack of empathy, etc, but there's a kneejerk reaction to immediately diving towards "Well everyone knows video games don't make people violent" / "I haven't shot anybody yet!", but when you get stuff like people openly threatening the life of CoD developers over extremely minor patch notes, well...
Last edited by DragonChild on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Starmaker »

FrankTrollman wrote:I've often wondered why the anti-sex arm of feminism gets upset about one thing and not at another. I'm pretty sure it's "for no reason". The books, movies, video games, and table top games that get mini crusades shaking their fist about their objectification of women appears on first, second, and third look to be wholly random. And I think that's the actual answer: it is random.
It *is* random, because there's every reason for mini-crusades to work like every other internet meme under the sun. Some get popular enough for you to hear about them. Others don't. A campaign is made up of many individual, randomly interconnected expressions of outrage, and sometimes the flame of righteous anger just doesn't ignite.

Plus, there are other factors that make or break art besides sexism, and people have to prioritize at an individual level. E.g. for a show that has a girl engineer, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood is amazingly sexist. I like it anyway, and I won't even click a button in support of a hypothetical boycott (I don't keep up with culture, hence the dated example). Now, I'm looking at characters from Odin Sphere, and since I have zero knowledge about the game beyond those designs and zero interest in the game, I can be bothered to maybe sign a e-petition or something. And then there's Xenonauts which at least partially owes its women soldiers to a shitstorm I started.
Last edited by Starmaker on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by name_here »

Starmaker wrote:Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood is amazingly sexist
Uh, what?
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