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oMage v. nMage
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shrieking Banshee wrote:

The complication is of course that somewhere along the top technocrats just thought "Wouldn't this be easier if everybody had the exact same opinion? Yeaaaah". And in thats always a bad deal.


When your technological intrastructure is powered entirely by Tinkerbell, then freedom of belief is not something that anyone can ethically support.

In the real world, it's pokay for someone to post a crazy conspiracy website explaining how the moon landing was fake and human space travel is actually impossible. Because my crazy conspiricy website won't change reality no matter how many people buy it.

In the old World of Darkness, my crazy conspiricy website can change reality if enough people buy it. If people start believing me then NASA rockets start exploding due to paradox. And that's bad.

In reality, vaccines don't cause autism no matter what some people believe. If the old World of Darkness, if enough people believe that vaccines cause Autism, then vaccines really do cause Autism. And then you get massive spikes in Autism rates due to childhood vaccinations.


In reality, if the Flat Earth Society convinces enough people that they're right, the Earth will still be round at the end of the day.


In the old World of Darkness, if the Flat Earth Society convinces enough people that they're right then all the satellites will immediately fall out of the sky and planes attempting to circumnavigate the globe will instead by besieged by demons when they cross the ice wall.

Old Mage presents a setting where belief must be controled. Because belief is dangerous. And because belief is the foundation of all of our technological infrastructure. Electricity is tinkerbell. Whenever someone yells "I don't believe in electrons" an turbine dies.


Last edited by hyzmarca on Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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K
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mechalich wrote:


I do think the Traditions work fine as individual mystic organizations. Most of them have at least a fairly high level of internal consistency and unified worldview. It's the Tradition Council and the overall idea of the Nine Traditions together as some sort of unified faction that is the big problem.


I really don't even think that individual Traditions hold up as organizations, much less the Tradition Council.

I probably run them like Christians. Sure, they can agree that they have more in common with each other than with Buddhists, but the Baptists don't give a fuck what the Pope says and don't even give a fuck about the other Baptist church on the other side of town.

The Ascension War just doesn't work as a clone of Vampire the Masquerade but with shinier outfits, and that's because each magical tradition, Tradition or Technocrat, represents a fundamentally different set of values. I mean, there is no goddamn thematic reason for a Dreamspeaker to listen to fucking anyone, much less another Dreamspeaker, since they model a primitive tribal lifestyle designed well before the modern org chart, and that's why I can't see most of the Traditions even being internally organized.

It doesn't even matter that the members are modern people. People adopt primitive lifestyles all the time from things as small as deciding to eat paleo to completely going off the grid and learning to build huts in the woods and manufacture their own medicines from native plants, and in the WoD that means that some of those people have magic power as a result.
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Mechalich
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
The percentages don't add up of course.


That would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. I mean, how hard would it be to do a factional breakdown and not eff up the percentages? I suspect the excuse is that he's double-counting the Nephandi and Marauders as nominally members of other factions, but its still dumb.

The raw numbers are pretty stupid too. I can accept the Traditions the same size as the Technocracy as a game balance dodge, even though its ridiculous on the face of the Union's vastly superior recruitment tools. The funniest number is the Marauders. Really, more than 1 Mage in 20 is consigned to permanent reality-warping insanity? There are as many of these wack-jobs as there are Hermetics? Try harder please.

Longes wrote:
The canonical explanation for why there are a lot of Akashics is that Akashics and Euthanatos are the only traditions that draft in Asia. And Euthanatos are a goddamn death cult, so Akashics have a better sales pitch. Of course this raises the question of why there aren't more Akashics than every other tradition. And the answer is "shut up, stop asking questions".


Dragons of the East (which is a mostly terrible supplement, but so it goes) is actually willing to be a little broader about other Traditions drafting in Asia. Dreamspeakers are drafted from Japan's Shinto population and several of China's larger ethnic minorities and big chunks of Southeast Asia. The Christian population of the Philippines is drawn to the Chorus, as is some portion of South Asia's large Islamic population. The Cultists of Ecstasy are supposed to have a fairly significant presence in India alongside the Euthanatos.

Also East Asia and South Asia support some large fraction of those 3,000 Craft mages Shepperd has carelessly manifested into being, with the Wu Lung in particularly probably counting as the planet's largest Craft by a significant margin. The Al-I-Batan would also recruit heavily among Asia's large Islamic populations. East Asia should also have a fairly high proportion of disaffected Orphans due to the nature of the Akashic training program, so Akashics+failed cast-offs could still be the largest tradition.
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Daniel
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

'Nice' bit in the first supplement for Mage 20. If your paradigm says that you channel spirits to work your magics, you must add Spirit 2 to the required spheres for all relevant spells. Your paradigm says you channel chi to do a certain thing. You must have prime 2 and spend a point of quintessence on top of the regular requirements.
Does any of this improve your spell in any way? No.

It is official the Akashic Brotherhood is worse at martial arts magic than for example the NWO.

Groan...
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Longes
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thankfully that's an optional rule (which stops being optional about midway through the book). The sad part is that people on onyx path forums treat it seriously.
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Ice9
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Apparently, that rule is actually a benefit for the paradigms it applies to, at the cost of locking them into taking that particular sphere. It allows them to use a Spirit/Prime implement on every spell they cast, which either saves on number of implements needed or gives you an excuse to stack them (can't remember which). Or so I've heard, anyway.

Last edited by Ice9 on Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Longes
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ice9 wrote:
Apparently, that rule is actually a benefit for the paradigms it applies to, at the cost of locking them into taking that particular sphere. It allows them to use a Spirit/Prime implement on every spell they cast, which either saves on number of implements needed or gives you an excuse to stack them (can't remember which). Or so I've heard, anyway.


It's not. M20 uncoupled tools and spheres, so now you can have as many (or as few) tools as you want. Which of course works terribly with the rules for abandoning tools and can be minmaxed to hell and back.
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Shrieking Banshee
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
Old Mage presents a setting where belief must be controled. Because belief is dangerous. And because belief is the foundation of all of our technological infrastructure. Electricity is tinkerbell. Whenever someone yells "I don't believe in electrons" an turbine dies.


But every time somebody says "I believe in miracles" a childs Lukemia suddenly disappears.

Il agree with you on the dangers, but I guess the idea was that if enough people fundamentally (Truly not in a phony sort of way) realised just how important belief was, something awesome would happen.

If at a certain point in time, your planning on lobotomizing all people so they can live perfect lives, you gotta wonder whats the point of living.

But this is more an idealogical issue, but I understand how the Tradition councils just don't work.
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Mask_De_H
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
Ice9 wrote:
Apparently, that rule is actually a benefit for the paradigms it applies to, at the cost of locking them into taking that particular sphere. It allows them to use a Spirit/Prime implement on every spell they cast, which either saves on number of implements needed or gives you an excuse to stack them (can't remember which). Or so I've heard, anyway.


It's not. M20 uncoupled tools and spheres, so now you can have as many (or as few) tools as you want. Which of course works terribly with the rules for abandoning tools and can be minmaxed to hell and back.


Basically the typewriter monkeys forget what bastard form of oMage they're designing for throughout the books again.
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vagrant
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mask_De_H wrote:
Longes wrote:
Ice9 wrote:
Apparently, that rule is actually a benefit for the paradigms it applies to, at the cost of locking them into taking that particular sphere. It allows them to use a Spirit/Prime implement on every spell they cast, which either saves on number of implements needed or gives you an excuse to stack them (can't remember which). Or so I've heard, anyway.


It's not. M20 uncoupled tools and spheres, so now you can have as many (or as few) tools as you want. Which of course works terribly with the rules for abandoning tools and can be minmaxed to hell and back.


Basically the typewriter monkeys forget what bastard form of oMage they're designing for throughout the books again.


That's assuming there was a non-bastardised version of oMage. (Hint: There wasn't.)
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The thing that gets me about that spirit component nonsense is that you only get three sphere dots. Seriously, three. And one dot of sphere doesn't do shit. So if someone tells you that you need two dots of a second sphere, they are telling you that your character can't do anything.

Mage writers are constantly flippantly asking for 2-4 dots in 2-3 spheres to do various shit, and I just have to ask what the fuck game they think they are writing for. I've often said that Vampires don't get enough magic powers, and they don't. But at least they had forever to get more and things like diablerie to skip ahead a bit. When Mage authors talk about multi-sphere spells at all, that's basically a fantasy. You are not going to cast one of those in a real game. Ever.

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Longes
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
The thing that gets me about that spirit component nonsense is that you only get three sphere dots. Seriously, three. And one dot of sphere doesn't do shit. So if someone tells you that you need two dots of a second sphere, they are telling you that your character can't do anything.

Mage writers are constantly flippantly asking for 2-4 dots in 2-3 spheres to do various shit, and I just have to ask what the fuck game they think they are writing for. I've often said that Vampires don't get enough magic powers, and they don't. But at least they had forever to get more and things like diablerie to skip ahead a bit. When Mage authors talk about multi-sphere spells at all, that's basically a fantasy. You are not going to cast one of those in a real game. Ever.

-Frank


Not quite true. You get 6 dots in chargen, and can buy more dots for 7bp per dot (you get 15 bp). HOWEVER. Your maximum level in a Sphere is capped by your Arete. Which starts at 1 and can be increased up to 3 for 3bp per do. So you are not starting with more than level 3 in any given sphere, probably you are starting with a 3/2/1 spread.

But you are basically never becoming as good as the written NPCs of each tradition, even in the "We killed all the gargantuan penis NPCs" Revised edition. Because now only big penis NPCs are left, and they all have Arete 4-5 and 10-15 dots of spheres. And you'll need to play for years on official XP gain rate to get that much XP.

Finally, Spheres aren't created equal. The only thing Time 1 does is let you detect time anomalies and keep an internal clock. While Mind 1 protects you from mind control, lets you buff up mental attributes, and see auras. Entropy 1 is incredible, since you can see weaknesses in objects and concepts and predict random events. But Spirit 1 is useless until you get Spirit 2 to actually talk to spirits.


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Daniel
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

4 freebies for 1 dot arete means 7 freebies left for 1 extra sphere level.
Even with 7 points in flaws for a 2nd extra sphere level...

You are going to have to start out with a character specially build for the purpose of being able to cast 2 or so rotes from an official supplement.

It is not that Mage the Ascension can't be fun, but after reading that book I never want to play a game with starting characters that is run by anybody involved with designing Mage 20.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Daniel wrote:
4 freebies for 1 dot arete means 7 freebies left for 1 extra sphere level.
Even with 7 points in flaws for a 2nd extra sphere level...

You are going to have to start out with a character specially build for the purpose of being able to cast 2 or so rotes from an official supplement.

It is not that Mage the Ascension can't be fun, but after reading that book I never want to play a game with starting characters that is run by anybody involved with designing Mage 20.


If you look at the "Antagonists section" at the end of the book, you'll see that the starting PCs are Neville Longbottom of the magic world.

The "Urban Shamanic Musician" has "Arete 3 or 4" and "Spheres: Forces 2, Prime 1, Spirit 3, Time 2". That's 9 dots of Spheres, for those counting.

The "Awakened Hacktivist" has "Arete 3 or 4" and "Spheres: Correspondence/ Data 3, Forces 2, Mind 2, Time or Entropy 2". Also 9.

And the "Black Suit" has "Arete 4 or 5" and "All Enlightened Black Suits have at
least Mind 2, plus two to four other Spheres between Ranks 2 and 4. Typically, these Spheres are Forces, Prime, Time, or Entropy, occasionally Life or Correspondence/ Data."

The sample Maradeur has Arete 6 and "Spheres: Correspondence 4, Entropy 3, Forces 2, Mind 4, Prime 2, Spirit 4".


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Daniel
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So maybe players should start with Arete 3 for free and 9 dots instead of 6?
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Mechalich
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:

The sample Maradeur has Arete 6 and "Spheres: Correspondence 4, Entropy 3, Forces 2, Mind 4, Prime 2, Spirit 4".


You have got to be kidding me...looks at pdf...seriously? WTF? And there's a second sample maruader with Arete 7? And a sample nephandus with arete 6? Good god, I'm fairly certain that Nephandus could co-locate a portal to every single brain in the digital web and feed them all to the Hive Dwellers...

And while the Paradox backlash from such an action would probably cause said Nephandus to implode, why would they even care at that point?

Longes wrote:
But you are basically never becoming as good as the written NPCs of each tradition, even in the "We killed all the gargantuan penis NPCs" Revised edition. Because now only big penis NPCs are left, and they all have Arete 4-5 and 10-15 dots of spheres. And you'll need to play for years on official XP gain rate to get that much XP.


In fairness to Mage Revised, they did suggest in the storytellers handbook that the XP cost of raising Arete should be waived if you actually do seekings as an RP thing. This makes the growth ratios considerably more manageable (it also allows for the possibility of failure during a seeking, cause if a player spends all that XP and you say no, you're just being a dick as the GM).

You still couldn't catch the really powerful NPCs though, but since characters with more than 4 dots in multiple spheres (fuck 5 dots, you can't actually let characters play with that kind of power) are essentially impossible to manage they're just setting backdrop anyway. Mage is like D&D in that past a certain power level things just don't work anymore and you have to handwave things.
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Occluded Sun
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would point out that, even in Mage, what people believe and what they think they believe aren't the same thing.

Despite the general rejection of miracles and fairies and wizards as events, a widespread acceptance of magical thinking and the retention of 'magical' categories in people's minds permits most magical paradigms to persist.

If you whip out a wand while shouting a phrase in Latin, most people will recognize that as "casting a spell", even if they think you're a moron for trying to do so. If you juggled small watermelons while counting backwards from a thousand at the top of your lungs, people don't see that as an obviously magical act.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oh, just so I don't forget, I'd like to share this little factoid: V20, DA:V20, Mage20 and Werewolf20 still have different combat systems. Wheeeeeee.

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virgil
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Two questions. How different are the combat systems? Did they seriously put the magic system for Mage20 in a separate book from the core?
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Mask_De_H
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

virgil wrote:
Two questions. How different are the combat systems? Did they seriously put the magic system for Mage20 in a separate book from the core?


Can't tell you on the first but the second is thus: Mage 20 doesn't really explain how to do things in the magic chapter. There's a series of charts somewhere that gives you basic sphere requirements for some, but not all, magical effects. The difficulties are not present. There's a separate book that explains how to do magic with a broader swath of effects.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Daniel wrote:
It is official the Akashic Brotherhood is worse at martial arts magic than for example the NWO.


That makes sense to me, they're pretty good at unarmed combat.



4 Life

Although obviously the best martial artists, nay, street fighters in World of Darkness are...



If anyone still has this, we need to get a review thread.
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Heaven's Thunder Hammer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mask_De_H wrote:
virgil wrote:
Two questions. How different are the combat systems? Did they seriously put the magic system for Mage20 in a separate book from the core?


Can't tell you on the first but the second is thus: Mage 20 doesn't really explain how to do things in the magic chapter. There's a series of charts somewhere that gives you basic sphere requirements for some, but not all, magical effects. The difficulties are not present. There's a separate book that explains how to do magic with a broader swath of effects.


~145 pages too, so fairly thorough for the system and explains some of the things you can do with magic that are common uses. But leaves basically everything at the whim of the GM. Good and bad, depending.

i.e. Creating Gold out of thin air. You put the rules together and get Matter 3, Prime 2, with a point of Quintessence. Fine. How much Gold do you create?

WHO THE FUCK KNOWS?!
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Mask_De_H
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well having to tongue the ST's naughty bits is a hallmark of White Wolf games. Changing that would change the whole nature of the experience.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mage is really concerned about making it difficult to create something from nothing, but doesn't have any restrictions on making something from "something." So you can start with a shovelfull of dirt or an ashtray you stole from the local Denny's or whatever, and skip all the penalties for creating things "from nothing."

You spend your entire life completely surrounded by "stuff," and since Mage transformations don't require any special or particular "stuff" to begin with, all the restrictions on "creation" are pretty much meaningless.

-Frank
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Longes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote:
~145 pages too, so fairly thorough for the system and explains some of the things you can do with magic that are common uses. But leaves basically everything at the whim of the GM. Good and bad, depending.

i.e. Creating Gold out of thin air. You put the rules together and get Matter 3, Prime 2, with a point of Quintessence. Fine. How much Gold do you create?

WHO THE FUCK KNOWS?!


Ha, the joke's on you. You don't need Quintessence to create patterns in M20. They changed that from the Revised.

virgil wrote:
Two questions. How different are the combat systems? Did they seriously put the magic system for Mage20 in a separate book from the core?

Subtly, but noticeably. Other than the combat maneuvers and difficulty to punch people, Mage20 and V20 have different soak calculation.

In V20 you roll an attack, calculate the damage dice pool, roll soak dice pool, reduce the damage dice pool by the successes from soak (to the minimum of 1), roll damage dice pool, apply damage.

In M20 you roll an attack, calculate the damage dice pool, roll the damage dice pool, roll soak dice pool, reduce successes from damage by successes from soak (to the minimum of 0), apply damage.

Mortal humans of Mage are more durable than the undead monsters of Vampire.

To the second question: sort of. If you already know Mage, then How Do You Do That is useless and full of terrible optional rules. But if you don't already know mage, then you shouldn't touch Mage20 with a ten foot pole, because Mage20 assumes you already know Mage.


Last edited by Longes on Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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