oMage v. nMage

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:51 pm

What people are asserting is that people don't play Mage as it exists on the written page. What people actually do is stare quizzically at a bunch of bullshit, start skimming, make up a bunch of crap and then call the end result Mage. Basically, Mage is one of those titles that you just pillage for a bit of an inspiration, or use the title as a shorthand for "We're going to play a game where we're wizards and you're free to bullshit whatever." But what you most definitely not do is play even a simple majority of the rules as written. That way lies confusion and unintentional hilarity.

Now, mind you, short of capitalism there is nothing more friendly to rampant idea pillaging and self-serving bullshit than table top gaming. But even by the hobby's heady standards the percentage of stuff you can actually take from Mage and use consistently as written is hilariously low. As such, "it's easy to play" in the same way that I can explain the rules to Calvinball quicker than I can explain the rules to chess.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:26 pm

I don't know where this "spirit changes people's behavior" thing is coming from. The spells in the Spirit arcana don't support that. Yes, there's a spell called Soul Jar - that spell is poorly named, because what it catches and stores are ghosts (not souls) and spirits (also not souls).

With high levels of Death, you can rip out a soul entirely or stitch a new one in. Even then, you're not really modifying the soul, just moving it around. Slay Own Aura does exactly jack shit as far as changing your personality or behavior; it's the magic equivalent of getting plastic surgery to escape your "wanted criminal" status.

So the answer to the challenge is "Mind is the sphere you want." However, since Spirit has the ability of "emulate all other spheres with some amount of spirit wrangling", they can do exactly that.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:19 pm

Ice9 wrote:I don't know where this "spirit changes people's behavior" thing is coming from. The spells in the Spirit arcana don't support that. Yes, there's a spell called Soul Jar - that spell is poorly named, because what it catches and stores are ghosts (not souls) and spirits (also not souls).

Soul Jar wrote:Success on the spellcasting enchants the receptacle so that a soul placed within the jar cannot escape. The jar’s lid is usually held fast by a metal bar or is coated with wax. The soul is protected from attack by the object. If the jar is opened or broken, the soul can flee. See “Soul Handling,” p. 276.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your points, because you are totally full of shit. Soul Jar makes a jar that you put souls in. That is literally 100% of what the power description says it does, and it directs you to a page citation about Soul Handling. Here is every sentence that page citation mentions Spirit:

Soul Handling wrote:Any mage who is able to affect beings in Twilight (using the Death, Mind or Spirit Arcana) can affect an unmoored soul.
...
Souls can be tracked with Spirit 2 and a sympathetic connection (such as contact with the soul’s mortal body).
....
A mage needs the Death 2 or Spirit 2 “Soul Jar” spell, p. 137, to enchant the receptacle so that a soul placed into it cannot escape.

So um... where the fuck did you get the idea that Spirit can't affect Souls? Seriously, I want to know.

-Username17

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:19 am

From playing the game? Now maybe it was a conspiracy between the several people who ran games, but in three campaigns (the third pretty short, admittedly), the number of "unmoored souls" we ever encountered was exactly zero. The pdf is on another computer, so I'll have to go look it up later, but trapping ghosts was the entirety of what that spell was used for.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:32 am

I'm pretty sure you did a "common sense errata" to the rules by separating out spirits and souls, or are pulling an oWoD/nWoD crossover.

In oWoD there was a big difference between the shit that mortals left behind (wraiths/souls/ghosts/whatever) and spirits, which were like totem spirits in shadowrun. So you had Bear spirits and Fox spirits and then shit got freaky in Werewolf where you had technology spirits (one such spirit took the shape of a B-52 bomber and dropped ghost-nukes) and shit that looked like cars or computers or whatever. Some of these actually inhabited physical objects, others didn't.

I think the differentiation in oWoD was "spirits are entities that were never alive on the material plane at any point"

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:40 am

And even then, that was a retcon because Spirit Thaumaturgy was too damn powerful in Vampire and made the Giovanni look bad.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:08 am

I'm confused that the most damning indictment of Mage is that it fails to support detailed date-rape scenarios.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:14 am

In Mage, your highest possible goal is getting the well-endowed barista to go out with you. By the conventions of the setting, you cannot make really noticeable change to the systems of the world, and if you try then you're a horrible terrorist and doomed to failure. The best of the oMages managed to fuck off into the Umbra where they can build their own little worlds, and even that was made impossible by the Avatar Storm. The best of the nMages aspire to fuck off to the Supernal Realm, which may or may not exist, but in the meantime they're stuff in the real world doing real world things and probably a bunch of other assholes are trying to kill them for vaguely-defined reasons.

So given the option of being a magical terrorist or trying to get laid, which is the better option? Morally, ethically, you should probably try to get laid - but then of course, you're in competition with some other mage that also wants to get laid, and the magical system is too vague to see who actually wins and gets laid. And that's just crap right there. I mean, in a game where two mages trying to do a classical shapeshifter duel are likely to get hit by so much paradox that they end up as crippled, half-human things, you need to at least make some subtle contest winnable past "I'm a mage and magic is a gun; bang you're dead."

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:25 am

I'm confused asx to why being a terrorist is a bad thing. I mean, that's pretty much what most RPG archetypes are.

D&D style adventurer = Wandering Terrorists.
Shadowrunner = Freelance Terrorist
Troubleshooter = Comically Orwellian Terrorist

There aren't many games where blow shit up and kill a bunch of people aren't the default problem-solving strategies.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:28 am

Well, it's not just that you are a terrorist in this case, but a terrible one. Terrible, perhaps, as in sucking so bad at it that you're ineffectual.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:58 am

Whipstitch wrote:What people are asserting is that people don't play Mage as it exists on the written page.

I said that though:

Lokathor wrote:Now, admittedly, it's more like the old DnD books where they give you most of a game and then your group at your table fills in the rest somehow, so that each table is playing it slightly differently in the end, but this isn't some super hard esoteric RPG here.

So, yeah.

Ice9 wrote:Yes, there's a spell called Soul Jar - that spell is poorly named, because what it catches and stores are ghosts (not souls) and spirits (also not souls).

No, Frank is right on this one, Soul Jar is a Spirit spell that makes a container able to hold a soul. Ideally because you're rescuing souls with it and carrying them back to the owner so that you can then use Restore Lost Soul (Spirit 3) to give someone their soul back, but you could do anything with that soul once you've got it in a jar really.

FrankTrollman wrote:So um... where the fuck did you get the idea that Spirit can't affect Souls? Seriously, I want to know.

The argument roughly of the form: "Your hands can pick up an iPod, they can even get it to reveal information already stored inside, but you can't use your bare hands to alter the internals of the iPod. You need additional specialized tools for that."

Basically, there's not any spell that lets you reshape the internals of a soul as far as I know, nor are there even hints to that effect really despite every other arcana that deals with things saying what the arcana lets you reshape with those things. So even though you can move souls about, it's a total judgement call as to if a Mage could alter what's inside a soul.

TheFlatline wrote:I'm pretty sure you did a "common sense errata" to the rules by separating out spirits and souls, or are pulling an oWoD/nWoD crossover.

In oWoD there was a big difference between the shit that mortals left behind (wraiths/souls/ghosts/whatever) and spirits, which were like totem spirits in shadowrun. So you had Bear spirits and Fox spirits and then shit got freaky in Werewolf where you had technology spirits (one such spirit took the shape of a B-52 bomber and dropped ghost-nukes) and shit that looked like cars or computers or whatever. Some of these actually inhabited physical objects, others didn't.

I think the differentiation in oWoD was "spirits are entities that were never alive on the material plane at any point"

No, Spirits really aren't ghosts:

nMage 317 wrote:Spirit Rules
The rules for spirits are similar to those for ghosts. See
“Ghosts,” pp. 208-216 in the World of Darkness Rulebook.
There are some differences, however. Most spirits come to
their state naturally. They’re born that way, whereas ghosts
are the ephemeral remains of dead mortals.

Also Frank posted some of the stuff about how a disconnected soul works, but basically they're also not a spirit.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:33 am

Well, Shadowrun and non-Planescape D&D terrorists can hide behind vagueness and the possibility that you could potentially do some good for the world if you really try hard enough. Besides, the games try not to presume to know too much about what your character's motivations or politics are and the setting information is presented accordingly. So, while you still have to gin up your own motivations, at least most of the material is intended to be generically helpful and hopefully easy to fit into games once it comes time to start putting numbers on everything. That makes it easy to make up someone so much worse than the party that you can make a half-assed attempt at arguing that the ends justified the means if you don't feel like playing a pack of anti-heroes.

By contrast, oMage has you pick a clubhouse right away, and that clubhouse is supposed to have serious implications about who your friends and enemies are. Except, being a White Wolf product, the world has been grim-derped, and these clubs are largely old news and doomed to failure. Unless the MC breaks with the WoD tradition of brooking no success, this often quickly results in PCs doing the rational thing--that is, just wandering off and doing their own personal pet projects and actually paying rather little attention to their Tradition at all. Which, wouldn't really be a bad thing, necessarily, except that it renders a lot of the published material fairly useless given just how much of it is explicitly given over to Tradition fappery.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:08 am

You see, that's why I prefer to make a Bugs Bunny Tradition and set about slowly warping the Consensus until Loony Toons is real, often by piggy-backing on Technocracy paradigms (you'd be surprised what you can get away with if you just put "quantum" and "nano" in the explanation). So you end up releasing a quantum-mechanical nanotech virus that turns everyone infected into Loony Toons, and they think that this is weird but accept it because they don't understand quantum physics and the health/durability boost you get from being a Toon is quite nice.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:06 am

Lokathor wrote:Basically, there's not any spell that lets you reshape the internals of a soul as far as I know, nor are there even hints to that effect really despite every other arcana that deals with things saying what the arcana lets you reshape with those things. So even though you can move souls about, it's a total judgement call as to if a Mage could alter what's inside a soul.

It's mentioned as a thing that happens, but I agree that there are no mechanics for it or explanation of what limits it has. The only things it explicitly mentions doing to a soul with Spirit are "handling" it, "tracking" it, "re-attaching" it, "creating one from scratch" (also requires Death), and "creating a bond between it and a spirit".

However, we can sort of infer something from what happens when you don't have a soul at all, which is that you gradually degenerate as you lose your conscience and motivation to do things you regard as "good". So the soul obviously regulates and motivates behavior. In some way. That is somehow completely different from the regulation and motivation of behavior performed by your Mind, which in turn is completely different from the regulation and motivation of behavior performed by your brain. The soul also has its own memories as explained in the Time arcana, and those memories apparently determine what spells you know.

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[/img]

Or perhaps more likely... it actually doesn't make any sense and the authors were working from the contradictory instructions of thirteen designers.

-Username17

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:06 am

I praise the Holy Quantum!

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:43 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
Lokathor wrote:Basically, there's not any spell that lets you reshape the internals of a soul as far as I know, nor are there even hints to that effect really despite every other arcana that deals with things saying what the arcana lets you reshape with those things. So even though you can move souls about, it's a total judgement call as to if a Mage could alter what's inside a soul.
It's mentioned as a thing that happens, but I agree that there are no mechanics for it or explanation of what limits it has. The only things it explicitly mentions doing to a soul with Spirit are "handling" it, "tracking" it, "re-attaching" it, "creating one from scratch" (also requires Death), and "creating a bond between it and a spirit".

However, we can sort of infer something from what happens when you don't have a soul at all, which is that you gradually degenerate as you lose your conscience and motivation to do things you regard as "good". So the soul obviously regulates and motivates behavior. In some way. That is somehow completely different from the regulation and motivation of behavior performed by your Mind, which in turn is completely different from the regulation and motivation of behavior performed by your brain. The soul also has its own memories as explained in the Time arcana, and those memories apparently determine what spells you know.

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[/img]

Or perhaps more likely... it actually doesn't make any sense and the authors were working from the contradictory instructions of thirteen designers.

-Username17

Well going from what is listed the intention of why having no soul is because they thought it'd be neat to explain Humanity in Vampires via Mage Magic, not realizing that while it's one thing to drop hypothesis that describe other game line mechanics in your universe, dropping them as actual rules is fucking terrible design.

So yes, we now know why Vampires have Humanity and why it slowly degenerates- they have no souls and have to fight the inevitable slide towards total moral corruption.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:14 pm

TheFlatline wrote: Well going from what is listed the intention of why having no soul is because they thought it'd be neat to explain Humanity in Vampires via Mage Magic, not realizing that while it's one thing to drop hypothesis that describe other game line mechanics in your universe, dropping them as actual rules is fucking terrible design.

So yes, we now know why Vampires have Humanity and why it slowly degenerates- they have no souls and have to fight the inevitable slide towards total moral corruption.

But vampires explicitly have souls, sometimes more than one. That's the entire mechanism behind diablerie. You become more powerful by eating the other guy's soul.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:39 pm

Their souls are dead, though. That's why oMages lose their magicks when they turn into vampires, or other undeads. Except oLiches, of course, they remembered that being a mage is about cheating and did just that.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:54 pm

Vampires/ghosts/werewolves/changelings/etc. lack an avatar, not a soul. Avatars are what make a mage able to use True Magick, in both oMage and nMage. Vampires are pretty explicitly wraiths possessing their own corpses and bound by a powerful curse. Same-same Kuei-Jin, just add Karma. Werewolves and faeries have special souls where the avatar never develops, and they also generally don't become wraiths. Mummies and liches are bound by powerful magic(k) so their avatars become stunted and warped - though the exact effects are dependent on which edition and even which books you're using.

For something like 90% of oWoD and nWoD, wraiths/ghosts/spirits of the dead/etc. are basically treated as unembodied human souls. Except in nMage, they're technically the cast off emotional echo of a human soul made when the body dies, but what happens to the wraith still effects the soul and the soul can't go on until the wraith resolves all its shit, even though according to nMage lore wraiths technically aren't people they're just...things that think they're people. Which is pretty fucked up when you think about it.

And of course it gets more confusing from there, because according to different products you can have different pieces to the soul, including the aura, the shadow, the true name, ka and ba, etc. In WoD, this shit can get complicated really fast.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:05 am

Well, Liches superglue their Avatar to their Soul, which is a nice trick to still be able to do Tru Magick after you die. Mummys don't do that, although their magic can do crazy shit also and paradox-equivalent magic is more a social faux pas. I don't think they actually use their avatar for anything other than have a "we are not dead undead, but totally cool living undead. See, we even keep our avatar, for those that would care" special flavor. Which is like a handful people in oWoD would even know what that is, since revised implied most mages don't have a clue about true magick crap and avatars that actually talk to you are a thing of the past and those who knew are locked ot of reality, or some horrible monstrosity that will not talk to you and rather snack on your soul, or whatever.

That shit get's confusing real fast, even if you try to explain it with more coherence.

That whole Avatar business was another useless addition that does nothing. Everyone has one anyway, unless you are dead, or some other magical critter. The Avatar Storm used shredded Avatars to rip your soul apart, but again, that is flavor that the characters will most likely never appreciate. Good job! Remove the Avatar, nothing changes. Regular human souls can awaken. Done. You want a mythical figure to talk to you in your sleep? Awakended magical subconsciousness. Done. And you don't have to explain Avatars, that your characters will never hear of anyway.

Grrrr. White Wolf. Let's cram more extra special butterflies into everything for no reason.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:23 pm

Assuming you wanted to make a game that was like Mage but not bad, A] what action resolution system would you use, and B] what would the arcana be?

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:28 pm

Just freaking use Ars Magica and modify the character creation for modern day.

You can tweak the skill system and combat system.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:00 pm

Grek wrote:Assuming you wanted to make a game that was like Mage but not bad, A] what action resolution system would you use, and B] what would the arcana be?

Hoh dear. That is a tall order. It's primarily a tall order because Mage cannot decide what kind of game it wants to be. The whole "the world isn't real and you have to fight the conspiracy" thing is very much not the same game type as the "you are old school traditional mages who have staves and familiars and shoot fire out of your hands in secret", and neither one of those is the same game type as the "you are reality hackers who can accomplish amazing things by line editing reality, but doing so has reality fight back against you" thing. That's three separate things for a game to be "like", and trying to make them all be the same game is no small part of why oMage and nMage were incoherent. So let's do these in order.

The world being "not real" and fighting against a conspiracy is basically doing Dark City the game. The players at that point are doing an investigation game. Your choice then is to take it in a freeform direction (like Gumshoe or FATE), or to take it into a concrete direction (like After Sundown). It's hard to see how the unreality of reality makes any difference to the game mechanics themselves, it's mostly just a license for the MC to have "big reveals" in the main mystery that don't make conventional sense.

If you just want to run around with a staff and spellbook and do "wizardly stuff" behind a masquerade, then you just want a magic engine and a modern game. You're pretty much doing Dresden Files, or at least you should be. You can do freeform magic (FATE) or static magic (After Sundown). Whichever way you go, you'd have to get the players be on the side of maintaining the Masquerade for whatever reason. Having a Masquerade but having the players trying to fight against it makes zero sense and is never stable (see: Sabbat, oMage, etc.).

If you want to do reality hacking with pushback, you're basically doing The Matrix. Fundamentally at that point you're going to want to put the "point of view" on a solid ground. That means either you have Agent Smiths who have specific means of detecting reality hacks, or you go the Doubt route and have the players required to keep the effects "coincidental" to their own characters. In any case, the actual mechanics can either be freeform or fixed here, as long as you have an RNG that gives a plausible set of outcomes for modern day adventures.

The Arcana/Spheres you'd want, that's tougher. Obviously, what kind of game you're doing is going to inform things heavily. If you're doing Dresden Files, you need a Fire Arcana, but if you're doing Doubt then you want Arcana like "Déjà Vu", "Windfall", and "Solipsism".

One way or the other, you're going to want to group magical powers rather arbitrarily into 4-10 flavors of magic, all of which have some effect on the material world. Because that's 100% of everything we ever experience and probably everything that actually exists, so any magic that doesn't do anything there is something that "sucks".

-Username17

Ed · Post by Ed » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:17 am

So I was reading some older stuff in order to not be a complete idiot and I stumbled across this:

FrankTrollman wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:I hope we can get a regular series of things like this. Can someone do WoD?
We'll have to do so many of them for WoD. nWoD and oWoD fal in surprisingly different ways often enough. And Promethean needs a rant all by itself.

-Username17

Did the Promethean rant ever happen? I've never read Promethean, but I've heard enough mindfuckingly stupid things about it that I want someone else to suffer for me.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:55 am

I don't think anyone did Promethean. I have a bottle of Kentucky Whiskey and a bottle of Czech Mead, and I could totally start on Promethean tonight. If someone wanted to do a tag team affair of it, that would be fine.

-Username17