[5E] Is Mearls planning to snow Hasbro and the fanbase?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:23 am

Okay, so, it's been almost 18 months since Frank made his assertion that 5E D&D was vaporware. Mearls and friends were undoubtedly working on 5E D&D longer than that.

GenCon comes in less than two months from now. People are waiting for the game with bated breath. Furthermore, if 5E D&D plans to release the book by Christmas, it will have been over 2 years since a major D&D book or sourcebook (Heroes of Feywild) came out. That is a long fucking dearth of time to go without selling D&D product.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidewalt/ ... ar-castle/

To celebrate the playtest’s anniversary, Wizards of the Coast announced today that it will release a limited-edition commemorative book containing the most up-to-date D&D Next rules. Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle will be available exclusively at Gen Con 2013, the annual gaming convention held August 15-18 in Indianapolis; printed in softcover and priced at $29.99, it is available for pre-order now via the online hobby shop Gale Force Nine.

Mike Mearls is asking for actual money while shilling his netorare'd thalidomide baby. If D&D was a video game, we'd be at the point where people are releasing playable demos in Toys R Us stores or packaging previews with other games. The product needs to be mostly finished at this point. If they plan on having a finished product by 2014 and hasn't been reasonably ready for primetime, it will already be too late!

And yet... and yet, every indication shows that Mearls is still in the dicking around phase. What. The fuck. Is he really this careless?

Dude, this isn't Iron Heroes. This is motherfucking 5th Edition D&D. You have frickin' deadline to worry about. New York Frickin' Times wrote about your ass. Hell, I even linked to a Forbes article. These last two months should be dedicated to doing last-minute fixes, not choking your chicken. The months between GenCon and the final release should be you fixing up layout and editing and pictures and getting your digital software together; you shouldn't still be debating on the basic design of encounters! Especially since the previous product you worked on died a cruel and premature death.

Is Mearls really planning on snowing the public and the bosses? What's his angle?

Corsair114 · Post by **Corsair114** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:31 am

They're figuring out how they can sell you the core rules for the game without any of the bits actually necessary to play it such as classes, items, and monsters. Maybe "You can play a fighter when you buy the fighter miniature with the Fighter rule book." Oh, but there;ll be separate splats that add things like "attack with two weapons" and "you can use bows!"

I dunno, I'm surprised they're succeeding so well at "lets make everyone hate our game" as it is.

Krakatoa · Post by **Krakatoa** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:38 am

Haven't they already said they're going to release D&D Next in 2014 to coincide with the 40th Anniversary? That's their angle. They're trying (and failing, largely) to make a big uber edition that pleases everyone, so of course they want to syngerize that with their big anniversary.

They probably won't even call it 5th Edition. D&D Anniversary Edition or something.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:49 am

ED: I'm sorry, I probably should have linked to what started this rant. First post fixed.

Corsair114 · Post by **Corsair114** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:09 am

Looks like their following the new trend in PC gaming of selling you the demo, then selling you the rest of the game in pieces, in light of your edited post.

At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if the talking heads in charge are considering a strategy of having the rules just be a moving target that changes with each release as a "consumer incentive."

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:16 am

Is that really going to work, though?

That backfired spectacularly when Final Fantasy XIV tried it. How spectacularly? FFXI got an expansion after FFXIV was released; FFXIV got the design team fired with Squeenix issuing an apology and making the game free to play for two-and-a-half years and counting.

Corsair114 · Post by **Corsair114** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:29 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Is that really going to work, though?

That backfired spectacularly when Final Fantasy XIV tried it. How spectacularly? FFXI got an expansion after FFXIV was released; FFXIV got the design team fired with Squeenix issuing an apology.

Honestly? With as big of a catastrofuck as the rules look right now? I doubt it. The one advantage with the ever-in-flux rules approach is they can just print a splat and say, "Oh? You liked 4E? This one's for you. In 3 months we'll print one that's for all you 3E lovers, and see how you can massage this to kind of work with your buddies 4E-like character? You can play *your* way without screwing over your friends! Watch for a special AD&D thowback at the end of the year, with a special campaign set in [current hot setting] with all your favorite characters, monsters, and adventures from your (gran)dad's D'n'D!"

The side-effect, of course, is that it'll further fragment their base. I mean, I know a fair number of people who started playing DnD 4E because the rules were (on there surface) fairly easy to grasp with lotsa room for MTP roleplaying, and forgiving enough that blowing up on a sneeze from an opponent at low-level was pretty much not going to happen. Each time I flip through the classes and mechanics revealed so far, I can't see anyone I personally know wanting to even try fucking with it. I'd imagine most of the folks who dug 3E are already in the "lolno" camp for 5E anyway.

I'd guess their long term goal is to keep the name D'n'D alive, at least on life support, and whore it out for video games and books. Especially the former with the new Neverwinter MMO coming out, and plenty of nostalgia to prey on with Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.

[Edit]

Fixing terrible grammar.

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:04 am

Choice quotes from the Forbes article:

"It’s also got a lot of elements that allow you to turn into a real memento, places for your players or the designers to sign the book" - D&D Next: the quest for more money

"But even though there is still play testing going on, this material is rock solid." - speaks for itself

"It’s really encapsulating the classic elements of D&D that defines the game. Whether you played Pool of Radiance back in 1989 or you’re playing the Neverwinter MMO today, you’re going to recognize this stuff." - it has the FEEL of D&D

"So basically, we need heroes to gather and help defend this fortress..and you can play through scenes of this climatic battle" - so it's totally just a basic hack-n-slash module

"The D&D Next playtest has over 120,000 registered playtesters as of its first anniversary" - there's no way that having that many playtesters is actually useful (and I doubt that 90% of those are actually true playtesters, and are rather just people curious to see the rules as they develop).

"Wizards of the Coast will not say when it plans to will close the playtest and release a final version of the new rules" - somehow I'm not surprised

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:52 am

Ok, here's what I don't get.

Where are the business people?

Why is no one pointing out that they're making no money and no one likes their product? This has got to be worse than the times the fired the head of 4e every year. Other than Enworld I can't find a forum actually interested in it, and even Enworld seems disillusioned. They have no actual goals or process, their major competitor used to work for them, and they're in the shitter. Even if we assume that Mearls is a pro bser or that this is his last chance to save his job...he's had at least a year to playtest this and it's still full of crap. Hell, 4e flopped in no small part due to his contributions. It's not like D&D has the big monopoly anymore because Pathfinder is being sold as 'D&D, but better."

And even if Mearls succeeds at keeping his job long enough for 5e to be released...then what? It won't be good, he's burned all the bridges, there aren't enough fans to sustain the product.

I almost suspect Paizo will try to buy D&D when 5e finally flops.

Corsair114 · Post by **Corsair114** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:00 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Ok, here's what I don't get.

Where are the business people?

Why is no one pointing out that they're making no money and no one likes their product? This has got to be worse than the times the fired the head of 4e every year. Other than Enworld I can't find a forum actually interested in it, and even Enworld seems disillusioned. They have no actual goals or process, their major competitor used to work for them, and they're in the shitter. Even if we assume that Mearls is a pro bser or that this is his last chance to save his job...he's had at least a year to playtest this and it's still full of crap. Hell, 4e flopped in no small part due to his contributions. It's not like D&D has the big monopoly anymore because Pathfinder is being sold as 'D&D, but better."

And even if Mearls succeeds at keeping his job long enough for 5e to be released...then what? It won't be good, he's burned all the bridges, there aren't enough fans to sustain the product.

I almost suspect Paizo will try to buy D&D when 5e finally flops.

I don't think Paizo could afford to buy the property off of WotC. Even if they could pony up the cash for it, it's pretty likely Hasbro/WotC wouldn't be interested in selling on account of its potential value for licensing into other mediums, particularly videogames. JM2c.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:14 am

Corsair114 wrote: I don't think Paizo could afford to buy the property off of WotC. Even if they could pony up the cash for it, it's pretty likely Hasbro/WotC wouldn't be interested in selling on account of its potential value for licensing into other mediums, particularly videogames. JM2c.

Well I said try.

It can't be worse than 5e, although I suspect they'll take Mearls once he goes.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:25 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote:although I suspect they'll take Mearls once he goes.

Nah, not for some time. When you crush your rival company (or it collapses on its own), you don't hire the boss, you hire any remaining good talent they had. So some designers or artists or whatever might get picked up, but I imagine Bullman will just phone Mearls up, go "So I heard you're looking for a job... AHAHAHAHAHAHA, SUCKER!" and hang up on him.

And even if they were interested, they wouldn't be willing to set their company on fire by putting him in charge, and he wouldn't be willing to have a job with them where they tell him what to do. He'd want to be boss or some kind of ideas guy who throws shit at a wall and occasionally they look at the patterns on the wall to see if there's anything useful, then keep paying him regardless.

Corsair114 · Post by **Corsair114** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:37 am

Koumei wrote:He'd want to be boss or some kind of ideas guy who throws shit at a wall and occasionally they look at the patterns on the wall to see if there's anything useful, then keep paying him regardless.

At least we can burn the wall. In this cold, cruel world that's a small comfort I'm happy to cling to.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:39 am

Selling copies of the D&D "beta rules" isn't any different from Paizo selling copies of their "beta rules". I imagine that's where they got the idea that they could make some money that way.

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:09 am

"it is available for pre-order now via the online hobby shop Gale Force Nine."

Is this weird, or just my lack of knowledge / experience in the publishing business that makes it seem weird to me? Why is WoTC using a 3rd party "online hobby shop" to sell a (incomplete) rulebook for the next version of D&D?

zugschef · Post by **zugschef** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:55 am

what mearls is trying to do is creating the lowest common multiple. that's because hasbro wants to sell shit. they want to sell shit to everyone. they don't care if it's a good funcional game. they want the most watched tv channel.

i guess that is why mearls is still in business and cook is not. appearantly cook has a point at which he breaks with a company if they want to shit on his designs. cook wants to produce a functional game. mearls wants to keep his job.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:00 am

Koumei wrote:And even if they were interested, they wouldn't be willing to set their company on fire by putting him in charge, and he wouldn't be willing to have a job with them where they tell him what to do.

But they gave a job to the guy who wrote fucking Magic of Faerun.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:07 am

And? That was just a (really bad) splat book for one setting of D&D. Mearls is basically the figurehead for the entire fourth edition and everything that is wrong with it, even the bits that had nothing to do with him (but for which he'll take credit if you say good things about them).

Nobody in the industry gives a fuck either way about MoF, and most D&D forums have an opinion somewhere between "What book is that?" and "Don't care, never used it."

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:28 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:But they gave a job to the guy who wrote fucking Magic of Faerun.

Yeah, they totally should have hired that other guy with lots of RPG job experience (e.g. a track record of hitting deadlines) who was willing to work on someone else's RPG project for peanuts. You know, old what's-his-face.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:54 pm

Well D&D has had releases since the book you mentioned int he for of LE reprints of older editions and that is probably limited to the number of sales the HASBRO book sales MUST reach on a per book basis.

i think it is Mearls grasping for straws to hold onto his job as he is likely the next to go in layoffs when the next edition comes out, whether it is a success or not.

in the playtest thread i made note of what i think the major problem is and why they can't figure out how to make D&D, but basically Mearls doesn't ahve the balls Monte had to stand up to HASBRO and do it right or quit. This doesn't mean i think Monte would be able to do it right, but he wasn't affraid to stand by his convictions.

Mearls is like Gamer_zer0, afraid in his job position with nothing to fall back on. Mearls knows he can't design, or should know by the failure of 4th, and is only hanging on by a thread due to support form the WotC fanboys that crowd the wizards forums. he likely only got to work on D&D due to meptism, being a friend of someone who worked there wanting him there with them. that person is probably gone now and his seniority is the only thing keeping him there. R&D should be leading the work not having John Shithead decide all the art, and JAmes Wyatt work on all the mosnters, but should be directing them as to what R&D has learned to which way to go. Mearls has no power here. He is only a figurehead like Bill S before him and will soon follow the same road he did. the one that leads AWAY from working with D&D.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:15 am

phlapjackage wrote:"it is available for pre-order now via the online hobby shop Gale Force Nine."

Is this weird, or just my lack of knowledge / experience in the publishing business that makes it seem weird to me? Why is WoTC using a 3rd party "online hobby shop" to sell a (incomplete) rulebook for the next version of D&D?

I wondered that myself, since GF9 has been around for a while, but on the miniature terrain side of things- they do scenery, rocks, and basing materials, plus some good superglue, and various other hobby supplies. Lots of wargamers know of the company, but no one enthuses much about anything but the superglue, green stuff and the basing supplies.

But apparently last year (in a blaze of no publicity at all), they got a license to produce a limited number of (unpainted) D&D miniatures, billed as the 'collectors series.' They also started making (or publishing) some games of their own.

But anyway- that is the tie in. Buy the 'preview adventure and get a free mini. Alternately, buy some drow, mind flayers or a beholder or purple worm. They've apparently had the license for nearly a year, and have produced all of a dozen models or so.

Drolyt · Post by **Drolyt** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:36 am

I don't get it. Haven't the Hasbro execs noticed that a potentially quite profitable property of theirs isn't even releasing products? Has Mearls sucked that much cock that he can just shit all over the game and produce basically no revenue and he still keeps his job? Or are there people out there who really buy his smoke and mirrors light show?

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:02 am

Drolyt wrote:I don't get it. Haven't the Hasbro execs noticed that a potentially quite profitable property of theirs isn't even releasing products? Has Mearls sucked that much cock that he can just shit all over the game and produce basically no revenue and he still keeps his job? Or are there people out there who really buy his smoke and mirrors light show?

Sales are expected to drop off when you announce a new edition. If you subscribe to the tinfoil hat theories, announcing a new edition is a great way to stop being responsable for a failing edition and equally good at keeping you drawing a paycheck for a while longer due to the time it takes to develop a new product in the interm.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 am

More importantly,

Drolyt wrote:potentially quite profitable

is not really correct: the only times that Hasbro has even mentioned the success of WotC at meetings have been in relation to M:tG. As long as MtG keeps raking in money, they don't give much of a shit about how D&D is doing - they're happy enough with just owning the property so it can be leased out for making video games, and that still isn't as good as what the card game gets them.

And yes, that even includes when D&D was at its most popular and getting the most sales, during the height of 3.X reviving the industry and turning water into vodka and healing the sick and everything. It was still valued at somewhere between "fuck" and "all" next to M:tG.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:28 am

Hasbro doesn't have much direct interaction with D&D. They tend to be more hands-on with their toy properties and not really care what WotC does with D&D, as long as they collect the cash in the end. At least, this is what I've observed.