[Comics Wank]What It Would Take To Get Me To Buy Marvel/DC

Tumbling Down · Post by **Tumbling Down** » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:11 pm

hyzmarca wrote:When Identity Crisis first came out I said that if they wanted to really do a serious rape story the victim should have been Superman. I stand by that conviction.

Go away John Byrne.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:45 pm

Cham, I take slight issue with that stance, given that I'm not sure how you're supposed to draw an ethical line on hot women promoting things within the context of consumer culture. I mean, yeah, booth babes are paid shills, and yeah, it's sort of annoying to try to maintain eye contact and otherwise have to deal with the social context of talking to a hot lady while she's got her undersized t-shirt knotted up so tightly that her boobs are just below her chin. And yet, they're still people, and we're smart to understand what is going on, and all advertising is manipulative even if it's just having an old lady asking where the beef is. In other words, I think at some point society and nerds in particular need to accept the responsibility of dealing with hot chicks without losing our shit.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:29 am

Whipstitch wrote:Cham, I take slight issue with that stance, given that I'm not sure how you're supposed to draw an ethical line on hot women promoting things within the context of consumer culture.

And where I draw that line is that if the product does not directly involve looking at or being with hot women, then it shouldn't be using them to advertise itself. There's an inherent dishonesty in using sexy women to sell something like Evony or its dozens of knock-offs, and likewise in taking a tiny bit character and making her your poster child in marketing because she has the biggest boobs, and I am entirely okay with calling companies out on this sort of dishonesty.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:30 am

I'd argue that goofy righteous anger over internet branding is an incredibly poor excuse for the way people interact with actual paid presenters.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:33 am

While the trend of using professional models to hock products is annoying, that's not what the grognards are railing against.

The grognards are railing against attractive but socially awkward young women with low self esteem who want to attain a sense of belonging by hanging around with you and participating things that you like even if they don't personally enjoy those things. And who might even invite you up to to her room for sweaty awkward sex.

You know, the subset of women most sane men refer to as potential girlfriends.

No, really. The original Fake Geek Girl rant was specifically calling out women who go to conventions to hook up with men. It was all about how girls who just wanted to have sex with nerds but weren't themselves interested in "nerd culture" were ruining it for everyone.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:50 am

Yeah, I know, it's really obvious. But I also think the anger towards paid models is vastly disproportionate to the actual harm they are doing and worth talking about.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:51 am

Whipstitch wrote:I'd argue that goofy righteous anger over internet branding is an incredibly poor excuse for the way people interact with actual paid presenters.

Heckling the grunts in the costumes isn't going to do anything except maybe provide some catharsis at the expense of your fellow human beings; even if you persuade individual models to give up the job, there will always be more attractive and (if necessary) well-spoken women who could use the money. I am entirely on board with holding the people who pay their salaries to a higher standard of professionalism. I don't have the slightest problem with girls showing up in cosplay just because they want to, even if they don't have a damn clue who they're dressing up as. Someone showing up in costume because they want to fit in, because they like making the costumes (but don't care about the lore), because a friend dared them to, whatever, that's all pretty cool. I love occasions when people dress up as weird and awesome things. But add a layer of corporate exploitation and the whole thing makes my skin crawl.

No, really. The original Fake Geek Girl rant was specifically calling out women who go to conventions to hook up with men.

I don't know if that one really famous rant actually originated the term, but I know that booth babes were a debate a long time before that rant was posted (PAX has a policy of not allowing them), and I can't imagine the existing booth babe debate did not influence the reaction to the fake geek girls thing.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:04 am

Yeah, for the record, Cham and I probably agree on this shit more than we disagree, but I feel like this is an important avenue to discuss and be super clear about because half the time the attitudes people have towards models and actresses lands deep inside false consciousness territory.*

*Well, not like, Marxist false consciousness, but more like the general prejudice-disguised-as-magnanimity you see in the twitterverse. For example, people who inadvertently throw models and thin women under the bus when they talk about "real women with real curves," etc.

Sashi · Post by **Sashi** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:47 am

Chamomile wrote:And where I draw that line is that if the product does not directly involve looking at or being with hot women, then it shouldn't be using them to advertise itself. There's an inherent dishonesty in using sexy women to sell something like Evony or its dozens of knock-offs, and likewise in taking a tiny bit character and making her your poster child in marketing because she has the biggest boobs, and I am entirely okay with calling companies out on this sort of dishonesty.

Shit yeah the Evony ads are creepy as hell.

I just don't think it follows that it's inherently dishonest to advertise Pepsi by having supermodels drink it. (I mean beyond the general dishonesty of advertising).

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:06 pm

Please don't be hating on the professionally hot women just because you don't have one. It's unsightly. And it's totally the same thing as the hating on the fake geek girls that everyone but you seems to be bedding, and now folk don't even want to play D&D until 6 am any more. :sadface:

As to finding the booth babes distracting, it's just possible that's a sign the product itself hasn't got your attention, and you should perhaps try to find something that does, given that we've long ago put aside the notion of hooking up with a booth babe at a con, out here in the real world where she's studying to be a dentist, needs the cash, and thinks comics are for children and boy-men who never grew up.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:26 pm

I'm pretty sure I had made a post about the different way pay scales and royalties were handled between DC and Marvel but I can't find it.

Here's a rather insane request for submissions by DC. I mean what are they trying to do? They already have a big problem with bad characterizations of women, an industry low of women artists/writers/illustrators and just random women in fridges. But this is something else.

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:40 pm

Wow, what the fuck DC?

This makes me want to submit 4 Superman-Batman slash-pics.

Tumbling Down · Post by **Tumbling Down** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:07 am

DC's damage control is that it's supposed to be a 4th wall breaking scene, where Harley is contemplating suicide over the stupid shit DC makes her do.

Take that for what you will.

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:59 am

Wat.

This analogy is basically perfect, tho.

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:50 am

Tumbling Down wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:When Identity Crisis first came out I said that if they wanted to really do a serious rape story the victim should have been Superman. I stand by that conviction.
Go away John Byrne.

Couldn't stop thinking about this. Then I read Erik's comment below, and now I think...someone should write this. And the rapist should turn out to be Batman.

Tumbling Down · Post by **Tumbling Down** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:42 pm

PoliteNewb wrote:Couldn't stop thinking about this. Then I read Erik's comment below, and now I think...someone should write this. And the rapist should turn out to be Batman.

Well, that's the thing, John Byrne already wrote that story, though the rapist is actually Darkseid/John Byrne.

Whatever wrote:Wat.

This analogy is basically perfect, tho.

DC are their own worst enemy.

Ed · Post by Ed » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:13 pm

hyzmarca wrote:When Identity Crisis first came out I said that if they wanted to really do a serious rape story the victim should have been Superman. I stand by that conviction.

It already happened, though Superman was named Apollo[1] at the time and revenge occurred via jackhammer.

[1] - yes I know Apollo is supposed to be The Ray, that is horseshit.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:47 pm

Ed wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:When Identity Crisis first came out I said that if they wanted to really do a serious rape story the victim should have been Superman. I stand by that conviction.
It already happened, though Superman was named Apollo[1] at the time and revenge occurred via jackhammer.

Apollo is gay. That doesn't count.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:51 pm

Well SUperman was mind controlled to make porn tapes with BIg Barda by Byrne at one point.

Or was it worse than that? I can't remember.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:57 pm

It's left deliberately unclear how far things went, but the implication is 'not very far.'

http://comicsalliance.com/superman-sex-tape/

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:39 pm

Wanna bet Bats has a copy?
"You gave me Kryptonite to stop you if you should ever become a danger to the world or the people on it . . but this tape here goes out to every single person who knows you if you ever cross me again!"

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:50 pm

Well, it's entirely possible that that's just to create a sort of portfolio, and not for an actual story.

It's asking for various environments, a lot of fiddly details, various expressions, etc.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:12 am

Yeah, it is a portfolio submission prompt rather than a story submission prompt but still..

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:37 pm

Because no one has the ovaries to reset the clock at Zero and say:

"Okay, Action Comics #1 (2013) - Superman comes out, is amazing, and is the first hero seen since the Mystery Men of the 1940s and 50s hung up their masks following a Congressional hearing. Couple weeks later there's talk of a Batman in Gotham, and then a vigilante archer in Star City. An ambassador from Themyscria is presented for the first time to the United Nations. A UFO crashes into an experimental jet craft during a test flight at Ferris Aviation, and now Earth has its first galactic policeman, the Green Lantern. Checkmate, a black-level multinational effort to prevent the development of superhuman weapons for global warfare, announces the creation of a sanctioned international task force called Stormfront, part of an initiative to better utilize superhuman assets for peaceful purposes. In a Lousiania swamp, a scientist wakes up as an elemental Swamp Thing...only to find a foul-mouthed, chain-smoking Liverpool magician, stage magician Zatanna, and boy-magician Tim Hunter waiting to give him a guided tour of the occult underworld."

...and go. You wipe out some of the old history, you make new history. It does mean a bit of replay. Batman fights the Joker again for the first time, and he makes mistakes and suffers losses - not because he's lost a step, but because he's still becoming the legend that haunts the night. Hal Jordan is the first Green Lantern of Earth - but not the last, and not long to be the only one, and as he soon finds out there are other Corps at play, and now Earth has been brought to their attention as well. In this world there are new conflicts at play: will the government try the same thing now that they tried with the mystery men after WWII? What happened to the mystery men, the so-called Justice Society of America? What alternate worlds are available through hypertime? Does Project: Cadmus (a Checkmate research branch) successfully clone themselves a Superboy?

But that requires a lot of patience, because if you start at the very beginning, that means you're not going to see Teen Titans out in less than a year, because it's going to take that long just to get all the kid sidekicks together. You can't really have Larfeeze in issue two of Green Lantern Corps. You would need time to let the stories unwind, interlock, build on each other - and that would also mean a fairly long planning period and stable creative teams, and a trust that your audience will wait for the content to be released.

So yeah, I don't ever see that happening. But I'd love to.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:01 pm

Well, there's also the fact that you can successfully reboot a franchise only so often in finite a period of time -- see the Spider-Man and Superman movies. And the amount of time in which a franchise becomes bloated and ineffable is significantly less than the period of time in which people will accept reboots -- see the Marvel Ultimates line.

If the superhero stories are getting stale and bloated, do other superheroes. You don't even have to do them with the same sort of tone and atmosphere as the 'main' comics. Doing Punisher MAX and animated Teen Titans in their idiosyncratic fashion did wonders for those properties.