Exalted 3rd Edition Kickstarter

[Longes]

I think the absolutely weakest part of the Creation is the Paragon city. It's a city-state in the south-west of Creation, rulled by an immortal heroic mortal named "Perfect of Paragon". It's a benevolent dictatoship. Perfect has a magical rod that grants him immortality and allows him to mark people. He can possess marked people at will, and set self-enforcing laws. Paragon is an interesting place, although there's little you cn do there as an adventurer, since everyone is Lawful and Perfect instantly becomes aware of any shit you stir.

However, Perfect is a mortal with a magic stick. A magic stick that becomes waaay more powerful in the hands of celestial exalted. Sidereals, Abyssals, Infernals and Lunars, even chargen ones, can pretty easily come and take it whenever they want, either by stealth, or by leaving a bloody wreck behind them as they go through the city. And at least three of those groups have good reasons to grab that stick. But no, apparently no one did anything about Paragon in the last 500 years.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Because Lunars cannot into relevance.

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

You play as over the top powerful heroes who go around punching gods in the face, but playing as a mortal is supported too. Combat is all about shouting out flowery technique names superhero wire-fu style, but informed by historical reality. The focus of the game is about storytelling, but players are free to pursue whatever story they want. Both X and not X in as many ways as I can translate it into marketingspeak.

You know, recently I had the same thought about Solars, they owe their popularity as a splat, which long was inexplicable to me, to the fact that the game simultaneously markets them as oppressed underdogs and absolutely invincible god-kings. But I've never thought to generalize this explanation. Bravo.

For solars both "underdog" and "invincible god-king" is true. A chargen solar is an invincible god-king to anything that's not an exalted. However, since the setting has a hundred fate ninjas who are older, better trained, and better equiped than you, has rapy Lunar elders who are older, better trained and better equiped than you, and has Deathlords, who have Essence 10, all solar and abyssal charms, know sidereal martial arts (which are horrendously broken. Obsidian Shards capstone is "Pick the way you won", literally). Compared to those people you are not even a blip on the radar, and you are supposed to fight them (in theory).

That's my main problem with the Exalted setting. The game lures you in with the promises of grand, high level adventures, where you decide the fate of the world. In reality the world has at least 20 god-kings who can squash you at-will, all of them representing factions either trying to end the world, or spreading the religion that blames you for ending the world. As soon as you try to do anything meaningful, you should be destroyed. So all Exalted GMs give out mind caulk like candy, to avoid any of the bad stuff to actually happen.

When I ran the game the biggest piece of mind caulk for me was why Bronze Faction Sidereals didn't just kill them. Lunars who were cautious made some sense to me, but yeah... Here's hoping 3E clears things up. My guess is the increase in splats decreases any individual splats power as a bloc which makes intervention more difficult. (Maybe?)

[Longes]

The very existence of factions is crazy for me. A hundred Sidereals are split into two (or three) factions over an issue that has been solved thousand years ago. And most Sidereals weren't even alive back when that issue was relevant. So, why are there factions?

[Longes]

When I ran the game the biggest piece of mind caulk for me was why Bronze Faction Sidereals didn't just kill them

You mean the reincarnated Solars? AFAIK, it's mostly because Sidereals aren't omniscient, are hated by 90% of the gods in Yu-Shan (as of Yu-Shan sourcebook), are split into two warring factions, have an incomming apocalypse to deal with and, simultaneously, are incompetent fuckwits. But then again, Chejop Mayonaisje is an Essence 10 all charms all SMAs immortal DM dick, so strong that the end of the world campaign had to kill him in a cutscene to prevent him from solving everything.

[FatR]

Exalted has a massive amount of words but very little content.

I agree that compared to the best setting books out there, like FRCS 3E, Exalted wastes space badly.

There's worldbuilding in the game, but it's empty fill-in-the-blank-spaces-on-the-map worldbuilding

I disagree. Their key worldbuilding problem is not filling blank spaces on the map, and then later writers naturally assuming that nothing exist in those blank spaces, so the hotspots they actually described, located thousands of miles from each other, interact as if they were next door.

Their other problem is vasting too much space on describing customs and politics of places that a group of Celestials or even of competent DBs can faceroll and take over with brute force (see the Perfect of Paragon example above).

Basically, my single biggest problem when running Exalted was complete unhelpfulness of the game supplements once it come to actual GMing preparations. Partially it was owed to the fact that Exalted only got something approaching useful opponent books late in 2E lifespan, and their adventures were few and dogshit. But the fact that the setting had very little in the way of reasonable (neither trivial nor rock falls, everyone dies strong) challenges for a Celestial party also contributed. While I could easily say that all the Essence 10 assholes do not exist, I could not be bothered with making up good challenges in their place, my preptime is not unlimited and generating high-level characters is a chore. To get some mileage from the setting books you had to run a DB-only party.

[FatR]

The very existence of factions is crazy for me. A hundred Sidereals are split into two (or three) factions over an issue that has been solved thousand years ago. And most Sidereals weren't even alive back when that issue was relevant. So, why are there factions?

Because the Usurpation was essentially yesterday for PCs. Your Solars wake up with direct memories of it in their minds (or at least have such option and it is encouraged by the setting), and its chief planners are still in charge and want to finish their job.

No, don't ask me why the fuck the setting writers made such choice. But it clearly was conscious.

[Lago PARANOIA]

To get some mileage from the setting books you had to run a DB-only party.

So why doesn't Exalted just bite the bullet and have everything revolve around DB-scale antics? I mean, I know that Exalted fans hype up the whole 'shatter a mountain with a single kick!' factor to hell and back, but when you talk about shit people actually like in the setting or look at promotional material like the comics or even just by listening to gamer stories people seem to like the Dynasty Warriors aspect a lot more than the DBZ antics. And let's face it: it's easier to design a setting and rulesset for King Arthur than for Goku.

I mean, I like how creative and weird some of the shit in Exalted gets at the higher power levels (the person who did the writeup for Sidereal Martial Arts was high on mescaline and I love them for it) but it should focus on what it's good at.

[Silent Wayfarer]

To get some mileage from the setting books you had to run a DB-only party.

So why doesn't Exalted just bite the bullet and have everything revolve around DB-scale antics? I mean, I know that Exalted fans hype up the whole 'shatter a mountain with a single kick!' factor to hell and back, but when you talk about shit people actually like in the setting or look at promotional material like the comics or even just by listening to gamer stories people seem to like the Dynasty Warriors aspect a lot more than the DBZ antics. And let's face it: it's easier to design a setting and rulesset for King Arthur than for Goku.

I mean, I like how creative and weird some of the shit in Exalted gets at the higher power levels (the person who did the writeup for Sidereal Martial Arts was high on mescaline and I love them for it) but it should focus on what it's good at.

DBs were originally meant to be the flagship splat, but they changed it to Solars at the last minute.

[Longes]

The very existence of factions is crazy for me. A hundred Sidereals are split into two (or three) factions over an issue that has been solved thousand years ago. And most Sidereals weren't even alive back when that issue was relevant. So, why are there factions?

Because the Usurpation was essentially yesterday for PCs. Your Solars wake up with direct memories of it in their minds (or at least have such option and it is encouraged by the setting), and its chief planners are still in charge and want to finish their job.

No, don't ask me why the fuck the setting writers made such choice. But it clearly was conscious.

The option of having past life memories only appeared in the Scroll of Heroes supplement. By default you are a completely different person from the guy who had your exaltation in the past. Even then, in most cases (Infernal Past Life background and Scroll of Heroes "Flashback"), it's not you remembering something, but a past asshole solar posessing your body temporarily.

[Longes]

To get some mileage from the setting books you had to run a DB-only party.

So why doesn't Exalted just bite the bullet and have everything revolve around DB-scale antics? I mean, I know that Exalted fans hype up the whole 'shatter a mountain with a single kick!' factor to hell and back, but when you talk about shit people actually like in the setting or look at promotional material like the comics or even just by listening to gamer stories people seem to like the Dynasty Warriors aspect a lot more than the DBZ antics. And let's face it: it's easier to design a setting and rulesset for King Arthur than for Goku.

I mean, I like how creative and weird some of the shit in Exalted gets at the higher power levels (the person who did the writeup for Sidereal Martial Arts was high on mescaline and I love them for it) but it should focus on what it's good at.

Because DBs are the bad guys/mooks of the setting. One of the themes present in Exalted is that every time little people rose up and overthrew their divine overlords, things got worse. When gods got too lazy for their job and made exalted to kill the Primordials, SWLiHN broke a number of physical laws and concepts, Fair Folk invaded, Creation got smaller, Neverborn appeared and a lot of humans died. When Sidereals decided that the omnipotent god-kings have to go, and killed all of them, Fair Folk invaded, Neverborn got their omnipotent lieutenants, no one could fix the breaches into the Wyld anymore and a lot of humans died.

So, since DBs were the raw force behind the Usurpation who cheated you out of your divine right to monarchical rulership of the puny mortals, they are the bad guys now.

[Koumei]

Also, it can't be a White Wolf game if you are "everyone". You have to be a rare handful of people who are hated and hunted by all the others, trying to blend in for survival. As evidence, I submit the entire World of Darkness and every game line within it.

[Silent Wayfarer]

DBs fit the typical WW protagonist mold better, though. Like, you're part of an ancient bullshit society filled with politicking elders who are better than you and can fuck you over at will, you're better than the muggles but are the smallest fish in the pond of supernaturals, and your cool powaz ultimately make no diff in the long run when the big bads come back to mentally, physically and spiritually rape you forever after setting the world on fire.

[Josh_Kablack]

DBs were originally meant to be the flagship splat, but they changed it to Solars at the last minute.

Speaking as someone with pre-release insider knowledge of Exalted 1e, that claim is untrue.

It wasn't until later in the development cycle that they realized what a money maker the DB splat would be.

[Silent Wayfarer]

DBs were originally meant to be the flagship splat, but they changed it to Solars at the last minute.

Speaking as someone with pre-release insider knowledge of Exalted 1e, that claim is untrue.

It wasn't until later in the development cycle that they realized what a money maker the DB splat would be.

Man, I could have sworn I heard that from somewhere. Oh well.

So why did GCG leave the project?

[Longes]

This thread reminded me of the thread I started on Onyx Path forums a while ago, about the Perfect not working in the setting. The wonders of mind caulk were witnessed.

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

DBs were originally meant to be the flagship splat, but they changed it to Solars at the last minute.

Speaking as someone with pre-release insider knowledge of Exalted 1e, that claim is untrue.

It wasn't until later in the development cycle that they realized what a money maker the DB splat would be.

So why did they develop a culture of not playtesting their material? Was it just a carry over from previous WW culture?

[FatR]

This thread reminded me of the thread I started on Onyx Path forums a while ago, about the Perfect not working in the setting. The wonders of mind caulk were witnessed.

People there seem to labor under the illusion than anything short of fully minmaxed DBs in large numbers or Second Circle Demons can actually hurt or even impede a competent Celestial group, instead of being scenery for stunts.

[Longes]

This thread reminded me of the thread I started on Onyx Path forums a while ago, about the Perfect not working in the setting. The wonders of mind caulk were witnessed.

People there seem to labor under the illusion than anything short of fully minmaxed DBs in large numbers or Second Circle Demons can actually hurt or even impede a competent Celestial group, instead of being scenery for stunts.

Yeah. One of the games I've been playing ended with me (Infernal Scourge) singlehandedly 'liberating' Lookshy from the dragonblooded tyrany, by virtue of me being faster than a horse, invisible (and untraceable) and capable of running up walls. I basically kited the entire army.

Infernals are my favorite exalted splat actually (and I'm angry that their 3e book won't be released for about 5 years). Chapter 2 of the book is ignored by virtually everyone, and some of the stupidest stuff was retconned in later books. Infernal charms are highly evocative, and are very good at making you act like your patron. So, Adorjan is an invisible wind of death, and so is my Scourge an invisble, wall-walking death machine. Shit gets absolutely real at high Essence, when you get Shintais. Cecelyne's replicates the Mummy, and turns you into a giant sand cloud. Adorjan's turns you into a murder wind. Malfeas becomes The Authority Figure (and shines radiation everywhere).

[fectin]

Yeah. One of the games I've been playing ended with me (Infernal Scourge) singlehandedly 'liberating' Lookshy from the dragonblooded tyrany, by virtue of me being faster than a horse, invisible (and untraceable) and capable of running up walls. I basically kited the entire army.

Why didn't they just shoot you?
Leaving aside Lookshy's extensive arsenal of ways to cheat, Dragon Bloods who have invested at all in fighting are very, very nasty in large groups. They don't have many advantages, but they do have more dakka than anyone else, do AOE blasts, and voltron together into giant cannon.

[Longes]

Yeah. One of the games I've been playing ended with me (Infernal Scourge) singlehandedly 'liberating' Lookshy from the dragonblooded tyrany, by virtue of me being faster than a horse, invisible (and untraceable) and capable of running up walls. I basically kited the entire army.

Why didn't they just shoot you?
Leaving aside Lookshy's extensive arsenal of ways to cheat, Dragon Bloods who have invested at all in fighting are very, very nasty in large groups. They don't have many advantages, but they do have more dakka than anyone else, do AOE blasts, and voltron together into giant cannon.

Because I'm an invisible, untraceable Scourge with unmodified Dodge DV 16 (as in, you need to roll 16 successes on an attack roll to hit me, before I start boosting my defense) with the Stealth dicepool of something like 30. Attacks from stealth are absolutely brutal in Exalted, because they bypass all your defenses, unless you have a surprise negator. Even if all dragonblooded of Lookshy form together a single giant dragonblooded, they are not going to stop a very sneaky guy from hitting them (bypassing DV and blocking PD use) and going back into stealth as my second flurry action.

[fectin]

"Stop the sneaky guy from hitting me" is a cheap (2m) scene-length charm. Hitting you back just takes six guys attacking you, or one guy coordinating three others. Going back into stealth keeps them from targetibg you, but just fireball the area you were in instead. It's shockingly cheap too; they can try that all day.
Neither charm is especially exotic either; they're both things you would slap on a generic fighty DB if you didn't want to actually think about building one.

[Longes]

Earth Sense is also a simple charm, meaning you can't use it and a Perfect Defense on the same turn.

Fireballing someone who has DDV16 and takes a sprint action every tick is surprisingly hard.

Hitting you back just takes six guys attacking you, or one guy coordinating three others

Penalty negators are cheap, and sixth guy is explicitly making a suprise attack (and who doesn't have a surprise negator these days?)

I don't remember the exact mechanics of what happened though - it was about a year ago.

[Orion]

The option of having past life memories only appeared in the Scroll of Heroes supplement.

As a sink for background points, maybe. I'm pretty sure 2E core mentions that memories of past lives are a thing that happens.

[Koumei]

Not reliably though, more as a way for the ST to drop plot ideas on you if they're feeling lazy.