Exalted 3rd Edition Kickstarter

[mikal768]

So are these people arguing in favor of the kickstarter just like stockholm snydrome victims, or actual Exalted reps trying to play a PR game?

Either way it's really sad.

So are people replying to fans who actually want to support the game by paying for the deluxe edition and some fun extras just bitter, or in an actual echo chamber for so long that they can't seem to wrap their heads around someone actually wanting to spend money for something you wouldn't normally be able to get?

Either way it's really pathetic.

[Schleiermacher]

Not an Exalted rep.

Arguably a Stockholm syndrome victim, if by that you mean "someone who wants Exalted 3e to be good and isn't totally cynical about it", but not a KS backer.

Either way, less than thrilled that you think anyone who's willing to give this a chance is either astroturfing or mentally disturbed.

[Username17]

Wouldn't be able to get?

Look, you can get these books, new, in actual honest to goodness feely goodness for less than $3. Not thirty dollars. Three dollars. Some of them cost less than two dollars.

Charging $35 dollars for a bundle of four of them in bullshit pdf format that you cannot in any real or permanent sense own, is bullshit. All four of them together in real formats that are yours to treasure and own and have right of resale on cost less then ten bucks. If you want them, you can just have them. They are really cheap, because no one wants them.

If you for some reason wanted them in pdf format, that is of course available for free. The fact that DriveThru is currently charging nearly eleven dollars for these pdfs is in no way a meaningful statement on the value of these things.

In any case, having expensive buy-in options where people are just donating to the cause in order to feel good about themselves is fine. Charging $110 before you give out any real world product is not.

-Username17

[mikal768]

Wouldn't be able to get?

Look, you can get these books, new, in actual honest to goodness feely goodness for less than $3. Not thirty dollars. Three dollars. Some of them cost less than two dollars.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I'm talking of stuff such as the Deluxe edition books, maps, music, etc. you wouldn't normally get. Stuff like those pdfs are just a small giveaway as they're cheap. But hey, strawmanning is a time honored tradition here when it comes to things the groupmind doesn't like.

The 35 dollar thing is mainly an add-on, though if you REALLY wanted them you could spend the money for them. But hey, it's cool. We get it. It's begging (even though it's not)

[Josh_Kablack]

Their price point is fine, as is evidenced by the fact that they hit their fundraising goal.

I personally will not be joining in, as it's just not worth the $1 to get my name on another Exalted edition.

[Seerow]

Wouldn't be able to get?

Look, you can get these books, new, in actual honest to goodness feely goodness for less than $3. Not thirty dollars. Three dollars. Some of them cost less than two dollars.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I'm talking of stuff such as the Deluxe edition books, maps, music, etc. you wouldn't normally get. Stuff like those pds are just a small giveaway as they're cheap. But hey, strawmanning is a time honored tradition here when it comes to things the groupmind doesn't like.

The deluxe edition books you don't get until 110 dollars. That's the issue.

Seriously, just look at where the pledges are, and you'll see even the people willing to throw down money think these rewards are bullshit. More than half of your pledges come from people putting down 110 dollars to get a physical copy of the book. Most of the ones below that are on the rewards that get the Exalted 3 PDF (which is at least a new product).

Seriously how many people are pledging 35 dollars to get 4 1e Exalted pdfs? 4. Because that's a bullshit reward that nobody wants or cares about. A lone single person paid 25 for the 6 fiction books, because again that's a bullshit reward that nobody cares about.

Basically, 80% of the people pledging, are people willing to shell out for the new material. People aren't paying money for the "feelies", sure some are willing to pay extra for those things, but they are paying for those -in addition to- the material being provided, not instead of it. Only a few retards are going to put money on a kickstarter for a product that they're not actually going to receive.

[mikal768]

The deluxe edition books you don't get until 110 dollars. That's the issue.

Except if you were getting a 400+ page brand new book with glossy paper and special edition binding and coverings, once you add shipping and handling, it's comparable in price. So it's only an issue if you're not paying attention to how much stuff like this would generally cost.

Seriously, just look at where the pledges are, and you'll see even the people willing to throw down money think these rewards are bullshit. More than half of your pledges come from people putting down 110 dollars to get a physical copy of the book. Most of the ones below that are on the rewards that get the Exalted 3 PDF (which is at least a new product).

Well... yes. Most people do want the new ones. Did you actually think that Onyx Path actually figured that people would be spending the majority of their bucks to get old pdfs? See my previous post about deliberate obtuseness if you did figure that.

Seriously how many people are pledging 35 dollars to get 4 1e Exalted pdfs? 4. Because that's a bullshit reward that nobody wants or cares about. A lone single person paid 25 for the 6 fiction books, because again that's a bullshit reward that nobody cares about.

Yes? And? So? But? See my previous replies.

Basically, 80% of the people pledging, are people willing to shell out for the new material. People aren't paying money for the "feelies", sure some are willing to pay extra for those things, but they are paying for those -in addition to- the material being provided, not instead of it. Only a few retards are going to put money on a kickstarter for a product that they're not actually going to receive.

The feelies are the add-ons. Stuff like the maps, stuff like the pdfs, in ADDITION to the new content. The deluxe edition itself is a feelie. It's a limited edition, nice looking, extra special item. Nothing in the limited edition or deluxe or whatever you want to call it will be different from the normal print on demand book. The entire kickstarter is about getting feelies (or pre-ordering the pdf if that's all you want).

So... again, what's the issue here? Why is it soooo bad that Onyx Path figures they can make some extra money on a completely optional pledge/add-on while also getting orders for the deluxe edition or super deluxe edition done? Outside of the groupthink here, that is?

[Seerow]

Except if you were getting a 400+ page brand new book with glossy paper and special edition binding and coverings, once you add shipping and handling, it's comparable in price. So it's only an issue if you're not paying attention to how much stuff like this would generally cost.

Here's the issue. They're offering "Special edition" and "Super-special edition (only 250 dollars more!)", but no regular edition. Because a 400 page rpg book typically goes for 40-50 dollars. Charging double that for some glossy pages and a fancy cover may be okay for some people, but if there is no offering at a competitive price point, you're not going to convince anyone to buy your shit that wasn't going to buy it already no matter how ridiculous the price.

And no, saying "After it's released you can get a PoD book for 80 dollars" isn't competitive. Nor is 30 dollars for a goddamn pdf.

Well... yes. Most people do want the new ones. Did you actually think that Onyx Path actually figured that people would be spending the majority of their bucks to get old pdfs? See my previous post about deliberate obtuseness if you did figure that.

It's either buying old pdfs, or paying double the price of what the new material is actually worth. In either case, it's basically just raping the customers you've already got. Like I said at the start of this thread, I'm basically the perfect target for them wanting to expand their market share. But instead of providing an opportunity for that, they basically make me say "Fuck you" instead because no book is worth the kind of money they are asking for it.

[Josh_Kablack]

The thing is that Physical Game Reprint Kickstarters aren't about really about expanding the audience - they are a little bit about getting prior fans back and a whole lot about squeezing the additional markups from the sort of superfans who are willing to fork out hundreds extra to have teh bestest most completionist everything. That's the whole point of having Deluxe, Super Deluxe, Hyper Deluxe, Master Deluxe, Awesome Deluxe, King Deluxe, and Ultra Deluxe editions

I think the Exalted 3e kickstarter reward tier structure is kinda stupid, but they did get at least one or two backers at the "overpriced PDF" levels -- meaning that it's more money and therefore less stupid to have lame rewards at those levels than to not have any rewards at that level.

But I don't get why them having stupid reward tiers warrants getting your panties in a twist.

[fectin]

Pretty much.

I would be more likely to back this without any rewards than with the insulting options listed there. And I have both a kickstarter habit and a soft spot for Exalted.

[mikal768]

Except if you were getting a 400+ page brand new book with glossy paper and special edition binding and coverings, once you add shipping and handling, it's comparable in price. So it's only an issue if you're not paying attention to how much stuff like this would generally cost.

Here's the issue. They're offering "Special edition" and "Super-special edition (only 250 dollars more!)", but no regular edition. Because a 400 page rpg book typically goes for 40-50 dollars. Charging double that for some glossy pages and a fancy cover may be okay for some people, but if there is no offering at a competitive price point, you're not going to convince anyone to buy your shit that wasn't going to buy it already no matter how ridiculous the price
And no, saying "After it's released you can get a PoD book for 80 dollars" isn't competitive. Nor is 30 dollars for a goddamn pdf..

Yeah, because that isn't a standard thing to do these days, to allow a special edition pre-order that doesn't have a large difference besides a few extra goodies before allowing people to get regular ones.

Oh wait no. Everyone fucking does that. So I guess you're against collector edition games with special downloadables too? Or first print special edition novels?

And 30 dollar pdfs are competitive despite your ass hurting over it.

Here's what it's actually looking like (not what your echo chamber view is):

1-- PDF 30 dollars (comparable to other pdfs on retail sites for rpgs)

2-- PoD book for 40-70 dollars after shipping (comparable to other books of this size)

3-- Deluxe Edition Book with a PDF copy and other assorted items for 110+ dollars

4-- Super Deluxe Edition for 375+ depending on what goodies you want with it.

Yeah, you're right. There's no competition at all!

Oh wait, no. There is. You're just being an idiot.

It's either buying old pdfs, or paying double the price of what the new material is actually worth.

If you don't think a new rulebook is worth 30-70 or so dollars, with 400+ pages, an entirely new edition, etc. then I guess you really haven't actually bought one in awhile, have you.

In either case, it's basically just raping the customers you've already got.

Nope. It's a deluxe edition that costs more for extras. Just like they do for almost everything else related to either games or books.

Like I said at the start of this thread, I'm basically the perfect target for them wanting to expand their market share. But instead of providing an opportunity for that, they basically make me say "Fuck you" instead because no book is worth the kind of money they are asking for it.

Or... you wait until the PoD kicks off, order it at a decent price, or buy the PDF at the competitive price that most other books of that size and type are.

Or you just keep saying "those evil corporations wanting me to pay them money for this". And this is coming from a Socialist.

[Seerow]

If you don't think a new rulebook is worth 30-70 or so dollars, with 400+ pages, an entirely new edition, etc. then I guess you really haven't actually bought one in awhile, have you.

Actually 40-50 is the typical price point I would expect.

The number given earlier in this thread for a PoD book is 80+.

The number in the kickstarter is 110.


The PDF is 30, which means that's the amount of sheer profit they're looking for from each book before even considering printing costs.


Yeah that shit is unacceptable. Like I said, they're looking for a price literally double that of comparable games. And if you're willing to pay that, more power to you. You're welcome to keep sucking their cocks all day long, but it doesn't make their pricepoints right, or anywhere near a level where people who aren't already sold on the game are going to consider picking it up ever.

[mikal768]

If you don't think a new rulebook is worth 30-70 or so dollars, with 400+ pages, an entirely new edition, etc. then I guess you really haven't actually bought one in awhile, have you.

Actually 40-50 is the typical price point I would expect.

The number given earlier in this thread for a PoD book is 80+.

A number which has no basis that I can currently see but am saying may be possible.

The number in the kickstarter is 110.

For a deluxe limited edition. Such items are usually more expensive because they use more expensive items or have other things included.
Hey guess what the 110 dollar version has both of...?

The PDF is 30, which means that's the amount of sheer profit they're looking for from each book before even considering printing costs.

Minus Licensing costs, corporate costs, salaries, the cut that DrivethruRPG gets, etc. Yeah after that they get a little profit. Shocking, I know.

Yeah that shit is unacceptable.

Then you're an idiot who doesn't realize why things are priced certain ways.

Like I said, they're looking for a price literally double that of comparable games.

For a limited edition deluxe item. Not for the regular priced books.

And if you're willing to pay that, more power to you. You're welcome to keep sucking their cocks all day long, but it doesn't make their pricepoints right, or anywhere near a level where people who aren't already sold on the game are going to consider picking it up ever.

That's right, because a deluxe item kickstarter is there for the casual buyer and not for someone who's already going to get the system. And they totally aren't going to have a more reasonably priced regular edition.
And their PDFs are totally already at a price that other PDFs are which are bought by regular buyers.

Oh wait, you mean they are, and they are, and they do? Well then, I guess you're full of shit. But then that was established several posts ago. But keep rehashing the same shit that is factually incorrect. Maybe if you keep repeating it it'll become true.

[Seerow]

Minus Licensing costs, corporate costs, salaries, the cut that DrivethruRPG gets, etc. Yeah after that they get a little profit. Shocking, I know.

You mean the salaries that all just got a +15% boost as a result of the kickstarter, and the DrivethruRPG cut that doesn't get paid since it's being sold through kickstarter instead? Give me a break.

Then you're an idiot who doesn't realize why things are priced certain ways.

Yeah, because White Wolf is such a special snowflake that has all of these extraordinary costs that no other RPG has to deal with, and that's why they need to charge so much for their product.

A number which has no basis that I can currently see but am saying may be possible.

And totally acceptable to you regardless.


Seriously, why do you care so much about justifying their price points? Your arguments actively make the company look worse for you making them. Get off this forum, and eat a nice big barrel of cocks. I'm done responding to you.

[Foxwarrior]

Well, you know, they need to charge extra for their product to compensate for the fact that fewer people will want to buy it if it costs too much.

[mikal768]

Minus Licensing costs, corporate costs, salaries, the cut that DrivethruRPG gets, etc. Yeah after that they get a little profit. Shocking, I know.

You mean the salaries that all just got a +15% boost as a result of the kickstarter, and the DrivethruRPG cut that doesn't get paid since it's being sold through kickstarter instead? Give me a break.

I'm talking about the regular book price. Of course the Deluxe one is pure profit. After all, it doesn't cost anything to print stuff, to get the supplies for the higher grade, to pay the artist for their artwork, to pay the musicians for their music.

As for the Kickstarter PDFs? Not pure profit. They come from DriveThruRPG via a coupon you get once the Kickstarter is over. Which means all those fees? Still apply.

And oh no, a 15% increase for RPG writers. Do you know how much these guys even make? Obviously not. But that's ok, we've established your idiocy already.

Yeah, because White Wolf is such a special snowflake that has all of these extraordinary costs that no other RPG has to deal with, and that's why they need to charge so much for their product.

They are not charging more than other places charge. Their PoD prices are comparable, their PDF prices are comparable. The Deluxe Edition is a special limited edition items. Limited Edition items cost more.
So the only special snowflake here is the hate snowflake you seem to have for a company doing what all companies do, at comparable prices.

And totally acceptable to you regardless.

80 dollars (including shipping and handling) for a book that's 400 pages long? Yup!

Hell, I bought Hyrule Historia from Amazon when it came out and it was about that price, when one includes shipping. Unless you want it to magically appear at your doorstep without explanation. If you don't want to pay the shipping and hard cover costs, get the PDF version. Print it yourself. There, you saved 50 bucks for your physical copy.

Seriously, why do you care so much about justifying their price points? Your arguments actively make the company look worse for you making them. Get off this forum, and eat a nice big barrel of cocks. I'm done responding to you.

Actually I'm not justifying their points, I'm pointing out that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. So far in this thread you've managed to

1) Completely and perhaps purposefully misconstrue the cost of a limited edition deluxe item into the cost that it will be at regular retail

2) Completely ignore the fact that the regular retail and PDF prices, when pointed out to you in response to 1, are in fact comparable and competitive with other items in the same market.

3) Throw out dozens of logical fallacies in your attempts to defend 1 and 2

4) Show extreme ignorance in how item costs actually work.

and

5) Act like a little bitch and walk away when confronted with 1-4 and repeating your echo chamber comments endlessly in response prior to walking away

So no. I think I'd rather stay on these forums. I also love the homophobic slur. Oh no, sucking or eating cocks. Such an insult.

[fectin]

They are not charging more than other places charge. Their PoD prices are comparable, their PDF prices are comparable.

This, right here, is bullshit.

[mikal768]

They are not charging more than other places charge. Their PoD prices are comparable, their PDF prices are comparable.

This, right here, is bullshit.

Any proof of your obviously well researched response?

WW products compared to others on a retail pdf site.

Vampire 20th anniversary edition: 30 bucks

Complete Judge Dredd Bundle: 60 bucks

Legend of the Five Rings 4th edition: 35 bucks

Dungeon Crawl Classics #35 : 30 bucks

Shadowrun 4th Edition Rules Bundle: 50 bucks (Down from 175 bucks)

Exalted PDF lowest Kickstarter price: 30 dollars, and your name in the book.

God damn you're right. That's some puuuuuure bullshit right there.

Though it ain't coming from me.

[Username17]

Did you seriously just try to compare the price points from multiple products from the same company to attempt to show that the company was charging a price point that was in line with industry standards?

That's insane. If you treat all three of your captives the same, that doesn't mean you aren't abusing them. It just means you're equally bad to all your captives.

The fact that White Wolf tries to get thirty bucks for a .pdf is wretched and vile. Fuck, WotC are a bunch of money grubbing twats and they only try to charge seventeen. In reality, a pdf copy of a book is worth less than a used book. Anyone charging you more than five bucks for it is ripping you off. If they are consistently charging more than five bucks, that just means that they are consistently trying to rip you off.

-Username17

[mikal768]

Did you seriously just try to compare the price points from multiple products from the same company to attempt to show that the company was charging a price point that was in line with industry standards?

Seeing as how you compare the prices of items that come from different manufacturers within the same store... yeah. I did.

That's insane. If you treat all three of your captives the same, that doesn't mean you aren't abusing them. It just means you're equally bad to all your captives.

Fine. Search for all those items on another PDF selling site (legitimate one) and compare them to those prices, since you seem aghast that I would compare the prices of PDFs from different companies there.

Or is it just the fact that you're completely fucking wrong and just can't be adult enough to fucking admit it.

The fact that White Wolf tries to get thirty bucks for a .pdf is wretched and vile. Fuck, WotC are a bunch of money grubbing twats and they only try to charge seventeen. In reality, a pdf copy of a book is worth less than a used book. Anyone charging you more than five bucks for it is ripping you off. If they are consistently charging more than five bucks, that just means that they are consistently trying to rip you off.

Ah I see, you're somehow trying to say I just compared WW products. Didn't know Lot5R, Shadowrun, Judge Dredd, and 30 year old DnD reprints all come from White Wolf.

[fectin]

WW products compared to others on a retail pdf site.

Really? Could you link me to where Exalted 3 retails? I can't seem to find it.


Let's instead compare to some things which are halfway relevant:

Numenera: $20 for core PDF, comes with players' guide and app. $60 for hardbound corebook (actually printed, not PoD shite, incidentally), comes with PDFs and app. Most funded kickstarter RPG.

FATE: $1 for ebook draft access, $10 for free PDFs of everything funded through kickstarter. $15 gets you actual product (plus all PDFs ever), but it's a cheap version. The better comparison is the $30 book, which comes with all expansions ever. Second most funded RPG.

Relic Knights: highest funded thing I could find with a comparable rulebook, it placed above Numenera. Actual hardcover rulebook costs $45, no PDF option.

Traveller 5E almost supports you. The kickstarter hardcover was $100, but it also weighed in at 600 pages came with swag, and was discounted for multiples.

Through the Breach had a special edition at $125: it was a combined core book and players' guide, and came bundled with one each of the normal core book and players' guide. I guess that's sort of similar, if the Exalted 3E special edition secretly comes with two extra books.

Tunnels & Trolls: $14 PDF, $28 softcover, $50 hardcover as an add-on.

Are we done here?
We're done here.


edit: another thread just mentioned OVA: $15 PDF; $30 hardcover.

[Koumei]

I love the bit where you can get five copies of the same pdf - one for you, and four for your friends! Protip: you can just make copies of the one pdf and give it to your friends. Even being legal here, you could just download one pdf and it has a licence saying "you can give four copies away", rather than literally downloading the same thing five times.

Anyway, here in Australia we have the "fuck Australia" tax, which in some cases is literally a 100% mark-up. A new hardcover roleplaying book generally costs $50-80 - and that's for big ones like nWoD or Rifts Ultimate Edition. Getting the three D&D core books (hardback, in a box) was like $70.

That's over here where everything costs more for no good reason (okay, shipping accounts for a small part of that). Yeah. So for Kickstarter, instead of doing the typical thing where, in exchange for the risk involved and for chucking money down and getting your product 6-12 months later, they typically offer stuff for substantially less. I might have gone "Eh, I want to buy a thing anyway, and they might have fixed problems (hahaha no) and there might be good pictures of boobs" were it $50, give or take.

For $110? That's just insulting, so I won't be giving a penny. It's just a shame that so many other people didn't see things that way.

[Koumei]

Relic Knights: highest funded thing I could find with a comparable rulebook, it placed above Numenera. Actual hardcover rulebook costs $45, no PDF option.

The pdf is (or at least was) actually free on their website. No funding even required. I have it at the moment as I went for the "get the rulebook (hard copy), the cards, plus pictures and tokens and stuff, plus two armies and some limited edition special minis" option. Which costs about the same as the minimum to just get the Exalted book.

Of course, as a minis game, it's able to just give a pdf of the rules away, as that might tempt more people to get into the game and thus buy the minis. RPGs aren't really in that position.

[Whipstitch]

Seeing as how you compare the prices of items that come from different manufacturers within the same store... yeah. I did.

As long as I'm not getting coerced into buying the products I don't really care much what people charge for an Exalted pdf, but I still think the above quote is really weird. By the same logic one could argue for using Bentley prices and Bentley prices alone to determine industry standard automobile prices. And that's completely in "What is this, I don't even" territory. It's not like Frank was comparing rpg products to apples or oranges here.

[fectin]

Of course, as a minis game, it's able to just give a pdf of the rules away, as that might tempt more people to get into the game and thus buy the minis. RPGs aren't really in that position.

Yeah, it's not a great comparison. Like you pointed out, they're going to shave their margins tighter, even on the dead tree version. On the other hand, it is a full-color, hardbound book. It's hard to argue that their cost structure should be radically different from Exalted's.

$110 for the corebook is just flabbergasting. The only comparable outlier that I can think of is Nobilis, which cost $50 back when the 3.0 PHB cost $20. Nobilis had unbelievable production values backing up it's price though, unlike a PoS PoD.