Exalted 3rd Edition Kickstarter

[mikal768]

Who said that the books are trying to promote egalitarianism?

Look, if you're doing genuine outreach, you're doing it because of your core ideology of egalitarianism. If you're not, then your entire operation is a sham.

And there's strawman #2. Who claimed that Exalted is doing any sort of outreach? They have a transgendered character. They wanted to make him believable. Where does it say they're championing any rights whatsoever?

Tokenism is stupid, but the other common motives for doing outreach without believing in egalitarianism are downright vile. If you're really trying to defend White Wolf, saying that they're doing LGBT outreach but don't believe in egalitarianism is much more of a disservice than just saying that they're engaging in bog-standard tokenism.

...Except I'm not saying they're doing outreach. This is a game book, not a tract outlining how life should be lived. It's about sorcery and swords and heroin pissing dinosaurs. It's not about "this is what is right and what is wrong and you as a person should follow it".

Okay, so my argument is that the supposed LGBT outreach of stuff like the Diamond Prince is phony because:

Except again, no outreach has been implied except by you (unless I missed it from someone else. If so, kindly link/quote them for me).

Having said all this, you utterly failed to poke a hole in my list.

Because your entire premise is flawed. You're arguing as if this was meant to be something more than a game book. The character was included because there are those types of beings in the game. The character isn't there for them to go "look at us. we're all about X/Y/Z/pi!".

Okay, so your contention is that the fans are promoting tokenism?

No, I'm saying that there is no tokenism as mention of the characters transgenderedness is extremely low compared to the other aspects of the character, and the only one who is trumpeting this as an attempt to champion LGTB characters so far that I can see is you.

There are a few posts here and there from people going "hey, one of the first LGTB major characters in a game line. Cool!", but I don't see anyone attempting to hoist Exalted as an outreach or champion of any rights, whether it's social darwinism, transhumanism, LGBT rights, or monster rape.

Not the creators? Like, the creators just took the diversity as a matter-of-course but the fans were so desperate to find a redeeming aspect of the game that they pounced on it like half-frozen squirrels trying to warm themselves up on a bug zapper? Fair enough.

in that case, maybe you and your friends should stop trying to embarrass the company so much then?

Seeing as how you're the one who is claiming the book is something more than a god damned game book here, I don't quite see anyone being embarrassed here except for you. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar dude. And sometimes a game book is just a game book. But, again, echo chamber. I remember when this forum used to be about shitting GMs and players and bad mechanics. Now it seems that it's about claiming all books we don't like not only have bad mechanics, but are also pushing social agendas of some sort.



We're saying the book is about cake and discussing the different ingredients on what may or may not make a good cake. Then you come in saying "But these ingredients make a terrible hammer!"

We're not discussing hammers. Or social agendas. We're discussing a game, the book is about a game, it's not about promoting lifestyles of any sort.

[darkmaster]

Exalted has had openly LGBT characters and societies/parts of societies for years, across all editions.

Having something for a long time does not make it any less hollow, in fact, like box elder trees the older an established theme gets without you acting on it the more hollow it becomes.

There have been lesbian characters, gay characters, bi characters, and pansexual characters. A transsexual character is nothing different.

That's exactly the problem, while your setting certainly can have all those things without ever expanding on them you lose the right to not expand upon those themes when you specifically draw attention them. Once you go out of your way to talk about an issue in a work you have to finish that fucking conversation or it will ring false and look like a half baked marketing ploy. Then again I've no reason to believe the stupid virus discriminates by sexual orientation so that probably managed to win them some cutsomers.

Claiming it's LGBT tokenism when one looks at the setting as a whole without actual proof beyond "dur hur hur what's the IMPACT" is not a valid argument, when there are dozens of other examples of LGBT items out there.

By your own admission having something thrown in that's never brought up except as the after thought it is a halmark tokenism. So the fact that it has no impact on the setting, never comes up, and nobody every talks about it is a perfectly good measure of how little the writers actually cared.

It isn't new. It's not from left field. These guys have been part of the setting since the early days of the setting. So yeah, unless someone actually has some sort of evidence that this is actual tokenism, I don't see a reason to argue their half-assed claims because they simply aren't valid as presented. They're just the bleating of the sheep.

Again, "new" or "old" is irreverent. You can keep squalling for evidence all day long but but the fact is the burden of proof is on you, you are arguing for a product that asks people to pay money for it. Specifically for how they don't expand upon how LGBT people are portrayed in the setting even though they're explicitly brought up and how that somehow isn't just a token mention of the subject.

You've made reference to how changing your gender is institutionalized but it occurs that that doesn't actually tell us anything. It's legal, sure, but is it socially acceptable? do people respect the person's decision or are they subject of derision and hate. Given our only example doesn't give us any information as our only example doesn't give a single fuck about society I can only assume there's massive incidence of transgender hate crimes as a society without such a problem wouldn't feel the need to pass laws protecting people's right to declare their gender.

[mikal768]

By your own admission having something thrown in that's never brought up except as the after thought it is a halmark tokenism. So the fact that it has no impact on the setting, never comes up, and nobody every talks about it is a perfectly good measure of how little the writers actually cared.

Ok so it's tokenism when it's brought up by the writers repeatedly per Lago and it's tokenism when it's not brought up repeatedly by the writers per you.

So, if both are true, that means that creating the character at all is tokenism?

Again, "new" or "old" is irreverent. You can keep squalling for evidence all day long but but the fact is the burden of proof is on you, you are arguing for a product that asks people to pay money for it.

Ummm... no. It's not. I'm not making the claim here. The person who makes the claim is the person which has the burden of proving that claim. That's the like, most basic foundation of discussing items.

This entire discussion wouldn't even have occurred if the claim of tokenism hadn't been made by the side you're defending. As such, the side you're defending is the side that needs to meet the burden of proof. Period. End of discussion. Not even Logic 101. Logic 099.

You've made reference to how changing your gender is institutionalized but it occurs that that doesn't actually tell us anything. It's legal, sure, but is it socially acceptable?

So you missed the part where I said legally and socially, yes? Or are you cherry picking? Regardless yes, the practice is socially acceptable there.

do people respect the person's decision or are they subject of derision and hate. Given our only example doesn't give us any information as our only example doesn't give a single fuck about society I can only assume there's massive incidence of transgender hate crimes as a society without such a problem wouldn't feel the need to pass laws protecting people's right to declare their gender.

So in other words you picked a side without doing the most basic research as to whether your side had any actual evidence whatsoever?

There are several books detailing the area where the Dereth are from, those books show this is a socially accepted practice, and that there are no issues for those who do that way, and in fact it's socially unacceptable to not follow it. And it's not forced on the people.

But hey, that'd require you to actually try and back up your claim, right? Trying to research something? No wait, I forgot, it's much easier to make baseless accusations and get pats on the back from the rest of the echo chamber for it.

[darkmaster]

Ok so it's tokenism when it's brought up by the writers repeatedly per Lago and it's tokenism when it's not brought up repeatedly by the writers per you.

No, it's tokens to not expand upon it. That has always been the argument.

Ummm... no. It's not. I'm not making the claim here. The person who makes the claim is the person which has the burden of proving that claim. That's the like, most basic foundation of discussing items.

This entire discussion wouldn't even have occurred if the claim of tokenism hadn't been made by the side you're defending. As such, the side you're defending is the side that needs to meet the burden of proof. Period. End of discussion. Not even Logic 101. Logic 099.

Um, yeah, it fucking is, because opinion, anecdote, and circumstantial evidence are entirely acceptable methods of decided if a product is worth your time or not. This is not fucking court, there is neither a judge nor a jury here and only one side of this argument is asking for people's money and that's yours. As I'm not arguing the angle that encourages people to shell out an actual portion of their hard earned cash my need to actually back up my claims are far lighter than yours because my position is less of a drain on the wallet because my position is free 100% of the time.

So you missed the part where I said legally and socially, yes? Or are you cherry picking? Regardless yes, the practice is socially acceptable there.

Proof? you seem to be really fucking sure of yourself but your categorical refusal even try to back your claims up makes them seem more and more like bullshit all the time. As, again, your position does not have advantage of being absolutely free all the time. Because you're position seems to be that Exalted is great and, presumably given the apparent recomendaton, people should buy it.

So in other words you picked a side without doing the most basic research as to whether your side had any actual evidence whatsoever?

In other words I've heard no reason to believe my side's citation of WW's past bullshit, including in the context of Exalted is anything but accurate because you constantly refuse to put in even the slightest amount of work to convince me or anyone else otherwise.

There are several books detailing the area where the Dereth are from, those books show this is a socially accepted practice, and that there are no issues for those who do that way, and in fact it's socially unacceptable to not follow it. And it's not forced on the people.

Name of books? quotes? any actual evidence to back up your claim that this is not a flaw of for profit product I shouldn't consider before buying? But hey, that'd require you to actually try and back up your clam, right? Trying to research something? No wait, I forgot, it's much easier to make baseless commendations and suck WW's dick.

[mikal768]

Um, yeah, it fucking is, because opinion, anecdote, and circumstantial evidence are entirely acceptable methods of decided if a product is worth your time or not.

But that's not the debate here. The debate here is whether or not this character is a token transgender or not. It's a spin off from the original discussion yes, but it is an entirely separate claim that requires its own burden of proof.

This is not fucking court, there is neither a judge nor a jury here and only one side of this argument is asking for people's money and that's yours.

So in other words you don't actually know how to properly make a claim and are just being an asshole and using the above as an excuse.
As such, you can be completely and safely ignored. Got it. No need to reply further. You won't be getting a response (at least from me).

[darkmaster]

But that's not the debate here. The debate here is whether or not this character is a token transgender or not. It's a spin off from the original discussion yes, but it is an entirely separate claim that requires it's own burden of proof.

No, they are intimately related claims that cannot be taken on their own and you're a fucking idiot for not being able to see that because it's fucking obvious that flaws in a product should effect your decision to buy that product.

So in other words you don't actually know how to properly make a claim and are just being an asshole and using the above as an excuse.
As such, you can be completely and safely ignored. Got it. No need to reply further. You won't be getting a response (at least from me).

No, in other words, I want you to actually defend you opinion because you're the one who's defending the position that people shouldn't care if the setting and fluff you're getting with the rules you payed for is crap even though that position is utter horse shit. I'm sorry it offends you that your idiotic opinions are being called into question.

[Username17]

So, about that tokenism thing. If you announce that a character is a [minority], but then do absolutely nothing with that information, that is tokenism. That is what tokenism is. So let's go look at how much they actually worked in the supposed transgender nature of the character:

Prince Diamond was born a woman, but he is a Dereth, which means he is socially and legally considered a man.

That's it. Everything else in the character's description has absolutely fuck all to do with that. There isn't even a single sentence about when Prince Diamond decided to become a "Dereth", or why, or what anyone else thinks or thought about that decision. There is nothing there except a token acknowledgement that the character's minority status exists.

That's tokenism.

-Username17

[mikal768]

So, about that tokenism thing. If you announce that a character is a [minority], but then do absolutely nothing with that information, that is tokenism. That is what tokenism is. So let's go look at how much they actually worked in the supposed transgender nature of the character:

Prince Diamond was born a woman, but he is a Dereth, which means he is socially and legally considered a man.

That's it. Everything else in the character's description has absolutely fuck all to do with that. There isn't even a single sentence about when Prince Diamond decided to become a "Dereth", or why, or what anyone else thinks or thought about that decision. There is nothing there except a token acknowledgement that the character's minority status exists.

That's tokenism.

-Username17

No, it's a description. Tokenism occurs if the group is including the token character in an attempt to appear inclusive. So far, nothing has been shown to prove that the character is including in an attempt to appear inclusive.

Simply saying "Oh this character is a Dereth, and Dereth are a part of society that do X" is not tokenism. It's descriptive text. And this is not the only LGBT character/society in Exalted.

Per my previous posts, there have been openly LGBT characters in Exalted before, and have done things worth of note. There are openly LGBT social groups in Exalted, and have been there for years.

This is not a single, token attempt to appear inclusive. I'm still waiting for actual evidence to the contrary. So far, none has been forthcoming.

So yes, your definition is accurate for tokenism. The character's description is not an example that fits the definition, and I happily await actual evidence to the contrary.

[FatR]

Why isn't it convincing? Hell, why does it need to be convincing? You claim that this is tokenism without actually providing proof that it is.

If you're big on "proof", you could start with naming the book where that supposed transgendered society appears in. Note, that neither gender-shifting demon whores, nor demon worshippers with castration fetish count for the specific purposes of your argument.

[mikal768]

Why isn't it convincing? Hell, why does it need to be convincing? You claim that this is tokenism without actually providing proof that it is.

If you're big on "proof", you could start with naming the book where that supposed transgendered society appears in. Note, that neither gender-shifting demon whores, nor demon worshippers with castration fetish count for the specific purposes of your argument.

I believe the first book they appeared in was Scavenger Sons in 2002. Least that's where I first remember them mentioned.

They also appeared in the 2nd edition directional books. Had a comic and everything.

[FatR]

I believe the first book they appeared in was Scavenger Sons in 2002. Least that's where I first remember them mentioned.

They also appeared in the 2nd edition directional books. Had a comic and everything.

I have do admit that in this at least you are right.

Now, when I, with friedly help of the Search function, finally found this fragment of the setting, I'd say...

...Actually, fuck that. Your ploy to derail discussion of why Exalted Kickstarter is a rip-off and 3E shows no promise into political disccussion through throwing the LGBT flag is already too sucessful.

[Seerow]

...Actually, fuck that. Your ploy to derail discussion of why Exalted Kickstarter is a rip-off and 3E shows no promise into political disccussion through throwing the LGBT flag is already too sucessful.

ding ding ding ding we have a winner

[mikal768]

...my attempt at derailing? That's a joke right? I was responding to the incorrect postings, nothing more, nothing less. I've already discussed the other stuff as it came up.

The only reason this continued was because others kept going despite the fact they were completely wrong.

Is this some sort of elaborate troll? I really really hope it is.

[Almaz]

Dereth are not tokenism in the Exalted setting. They are a custom that has become fairly well-established in the setting, and has been brought up, mentioned, discussed several times. The ramifications have been explored, not in intimate, agonizing detail, but people have actually sat down and thought about them and what that would mean, and how they operate in society. Sure, if I was writing the book, they'd get a bit more screentime, but they're not a token add-on. They've got more setting material backing them than Chewbacca does in the entire original trilogy. Which, amusingly, was added onto later by the Expanded Universe, which no one reads because it wasn't written by the same authors. But here there are multiple books and mentions of Dereth by the same writers. The ones that included Dereth then and now intended for them to be read in respect to each other as text. Prince Diamond being a Dereth matters in the Exalted setting even before he was Exalted, its been mentioned before in the Exalted canon (Scavenger Sons was mentioned - it's supposed to be the main setting book for 1e), I believe the 2e Core mentioned their customs as well, and I anticipate it being mentioned again in 3e Core.

I am not out to defend Exalted, it's got a million things I can point to wrong with it, but whoever wrote Dereth wasn't trying to do that, and I really can't stand it when people are arguing over it who are too busy bitching at each other for page numbers to acknowledge they haven't read the fucking book. Stop grabbing your dicebags if you intend to write, even on a forum. It's exhausting to see this kind of bitching - not because it's undeserved, but because it's not done well.

Now shut the fuck up about trans issues in Exalted, you prissy grues, and suck my trans cock.

[fectin]

Dereth are not tokenism in the Exalted setting. They are a custom that has become fairly well-established in the setting, and has been brought up, mentioned, discussed several times.

Not really. I couldn't even tell you what quadrant they're from; and I knew enough to assume he was Tya.

[Almaz]

Dereth are not tokenism in the Exalted setting. They are a custom that has become fairly well-established in the setting, and has been brought up, mentioned, discussed several times.

Not really. I couldn't even tell you what quadrant they're from; and I knew enough to assume he was Tya.

Oh please, they're Southern and part of the culture of the Tri-Khanate. That you're an ignorant slut about the matter and can't tell the grey-sashed trans people apart from the Western bare-chested lesbian pirate gangs doesn't really say much. Eff whyareyoutyping aye, the main distinction between the two groups is that Dereth have no particular ban on their fertility, while Tya sterilize themselves generally, and oh yeah, the Tya are all a bunch of POONTANGS. I mean that. They come from a society with very rigid bioessentialist notions of male/female because that's what the local angry storm goddesses care about and they fucking pitch a fit about it.

And the hilarious part is that people are having this sham of a "debate" as they decide they should mention places that aren't the (Eastern, for the folks at home) Scavenger Lands more. Oi.

Fectin, feed your fingers into a woodchipper the next time you have the urge to type about Exalted again. The blood spatter on the keys will produce about as much intelligent conversation.

I swear. "I can't tell them apart!" It's because you didn't fucking read.

Also it's quintant you stupid fuck.

[Josh_Kablack]

I have no fucking idea how this thread turned from mocking the overpriced Exalted Kickstarter to raging about LGBT depictions. But it's probably worth bringing up that some of the money which that overpriced Kickstarter is raising is going to actual LGBT people here on earth.

[Almaz]

I have no fucking idea how this thread turned from mocking the overpriced Exalted Kickstarter to raging about LGBT depictions. But it's probably worth bringing up that some of the money from that overpriced Kickstarter is raising is going to actual LGBT people here on earth.

SUCK MY TRANS...

... oh yeah, you're right.

Carry on.

( The next syllable was "Am," for anyone who wants to know. )

But uh, yeah, it's overpriced. I still kind of want it. It looks pretty.

This is probably, like, a really bad reason to want it.

[ErichZahn]

I really don't see what the problem is. If people want to pay for other people to go to GenCon and run demos, it's their money.

[fectin]

INCANDESCANT FANBOI RAGE

You're doing more to hurt your own cause than I ever could.
Carry on, I guess?

Also it's quintant you stupid fuck.

This was interesting enough to go look up, but you are talking out your ass. Again. (Quelle surprise!)

Quadrant et al. originally refer to equal sectors of a circle, and all other uses are derived from that. It only describes slices, and does not just refer to: "one of four regions."

"Quintant" refers to a section that is 1/5th of a circle, which does not describe Exalted geography.


But please, flail about some more.

[Mistborn]

Wow, the last two pages of this thread where terrible. White Wolf's fluff writers are way to try-hard edgy, no need for everyone to lose their minds about it. Wolffuckers gonna gonna fuck wolves.

Question: Is this actually going to be a playable game or is it going to be the same unplayable mess that I hear most White Wolf games are? I know conceptually Exalted always sounded cool but I've heard horror stories about the mechanics

[fectin]

Exalted has always been playable. The system is crazytown, but so is the
setting.

Imagine trying to run a game where the characters start as level 15 wizards, and level up fast, in a setting full of level 20 wizards: that the detailed mechanics are bad is almost irrelevant when a core setting conceit is a large number of near-omnipotent characters.

[mikal768]

Wow, the last two pages of this thread where terrible. White Wolf's fluff writers are way to try-hard edgy, no need for everyone to lose their minds about it. Wolffuckers gonna gonna fuck wolves.

Question: Is this actually going to be a playable game or is it going to be the same unplayable mess that I hear most White Wolf games are? I know conceptually Exalted always sounded cool but I've heard horror stories about the mechanics

Honestly I haven't seen any actual mechanical bits come out. even the mechanics "previews" are more conceptual verses actual rules so far.

im hopeful about it only for the fact these devs seem to realize that mechanics are actually something that need to be balanced and workable, unlike previous ones that came up.

i really wish they had brought on jon chung tho, since he has a good grasp on such things and is an exalted fan as well.

[Almaz]

I think the main reason that they didn't invite Jon Chung to continue on as a designer was that they didn't want the game to happen entirely in a white room with black curtains.

From what they've said, which is basically "you swing at each other until someone gets a higher advantage, then they kill you," it sounds a lot like a CAN-esque system. Which means there is a lot of hope for it. The problem is that there are a million ways they can fuck up implementing that, but at the very least they seem to have wised up to do the correct thing (which is to pretty much chuck the 2e combat system wholesale). Given that they have demonstrated some sensitivity to the effects of balance, and have done the one correct thing they needed to do, the next edition shows some promise. Whether it actually bears fruit, obviously, remains to be seen.

[mikal768]

I think the main reason that they didn't invite Jon Chung to continue on as a designer was that they didn't want the game to happen entirely in a white room with black curtains.

From what they've said, which is basically "you swing at each other until someone gets a higher advantage, then they kill you," it sounds a lot like a CAN-esque system. Which means there is a lot of hope for it. The problem is that there are a million ways they can fuck up implementing that, but at the very least they seem to have wised up to do the correct thing (which is to pretty much chuck the 2e combat system wholesale). Given that they have demonstrated some sensitivity to the effects of balance, and have done the one correct thing they needed to do, the next edition shows some promise. Whether it actually bears fruit, obviously, remains to be seen.

White room or not, the man knows about probabilities and can find loopholes in the system. There's a reason why you test things in such a setting before tossing them out in the field, after all.

I tried to get in on the playtesting to see how the rules actually worked, but no luck.