League Of Losers

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Wed May 15, 2013 6:36 pm

Korgan0 wrote:Thanks, that's really useful. If you don't mind me asking, how come you go 2/7/21 on your tanky jungler mastery page?

Honestly, that one's outdated and I haven't used it in a long time, mostly because I don't jungle very often (despite the amount of mastery pages I have for it). It should probably be closer to 2/19/9, since Nimble isn't generally noticeable enough to be useful. The "Skarner Skar Skar" page is more useful and something I've actually used recently.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Thu May 16, 2013 6:48 am

Also Caitlin is getting attack speed nerfs tomorrow, which should make it easier to get out without taking too many shots.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu May 16, 2013 6:52 am

Orion wrote:Also Caitlin is getting attack speed nerfs tomorrow, which should make it easier to get out without taking too many shots.

Well, she is getting an attack speed nerf and an attack speed buff that cancel out to lower attack speed at lower levels and the same at higher levels.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Thu May 16, 2013 7:12 am

Kaelik wrote:
Orion wrote:Also Caitlin is getting attack speed nerfs tomorrow, which should make it easier to get out without taking too many shots.
Well, she is getting an attack speed nerf and an attack speed buff that cancel out to lower attack speed at lower levels and the same at higher levels.

It's actually a nerf at higher levels too; a level 18 Caitlyn with Phantom Dancer will have .2 less attack speed. It gets even worse if you buy a second attack speed item like Blade of the Ruined King. They made Caitlyn scale worse with items.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu May 16, 2013 7:17 am

Surgo wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Orion wrote:Also Caitlin is getting attack speed nerfs tomorrow, which should make it easier to get out without taking too many shots.
Well, she is getting an attack speed nerf and an attack speed buff that cancel out to lower attack speed at lower levels and the same at higher levels.
It's actually a nerf at higher levels too; a level 18 Caitlyn with Phantom Dancer will have .2 less attack speed. It gets even worse if you buy a second attack speed item like Blade of the Ruined King. They made Caitlyn scale worse with items.

My point was just that he said she was getting attack speed nerfs, but it is only one nerf, the other line is a buff, albeit one that doesn't bring her back up to pre patch.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Thu May 16, 2013 9:28 am

Caitlin is a terrible champion and I hate her. I'm always happy to see her nerfed.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Thu May 16, 2013 5:06 pm

Are there really any other champions that fill the same role that she dose, namely early lane bully/sieger? Kog can siege, but he can't really bully, and Graves can bully, but he can't really siege. Can anyone else do both?

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Thu May 16, 2013 5:11 pm

Varus.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Thu May 16, 2013 6:59 pm

Yeah, I guess he would have good sieging with his Q. I was thinking of Cait's potential being in poking down enemies under tower with Q and then ulting for a free kill, but Varus Q+E+blight stack burst would fill a similiar role, I guess.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Fri May 17, 2013 3:24 am

Varus can do it too, but Cait is the strongest by far.

which is why I'm happy.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri May 17, 2013 6:15 pm

Corki is a lane bully who pokes. His poke only becomes a big deal at 6 (though it's still a thing before then), but his ability to win all-ins is ridiculous. I'm not sure why nobody picks him. He's a graves who doesn't turn into garbage late game.

I can't believe they're nerfing Caitlyn, though. She's already got the second lowest damage output of all AD carries. She's easy to win lane with, but once you get past mid-game she's strictly worse than any other AD carry except for maybe Graves unless you're a super poke comp because traps can be nice to have (but then why not take Varus for his ult, slow, and Q).

At least Ashe can initiate and kite forever. Caitlyn can't even cast her spells without losing damage. Oh well.

Whoever mentioned Cassiopeia inspired me; I've been picking her again and it feels so good! I build her kind of like a magic tanky DPS (I usually start with a chalice or boots, then go for giant's belt/revolver [and buy the one I didn't get immediately after], then finish items with the goal of getting Rylai's, WotA, and a GA). Cass has one of the best counter-initiates in the game, and has stupid DPS (base of 380 dps with just fang at 9) that increases the closer you get to the target. She was made to be a tanky DPS.

I'm going to try building RoA on her instead of Rylai's depending on the enemy team comp. My only issue with RoA is it removes early game flexibility because you pretty much have to rush that shit, but Cass does need the mana and Rylai's slow isn't very important to her (though it makes chasing even easier). Then again...why not build both?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri May 17, 2013 6:28 pm

Played my first game as Jarvan after buying him. He was great. I love poking over and over and only engaging when they are low, it makes the question of when to engage easier than it does for Ashe/Tristana.

I can't jungle with him. With no runes and 11 mastery points, I cannot keep up with the lanes even remotely. Maybe at 20.

Although, I remember reading a guide that talked about Jarvan and it had a pros and cons list, one of the cons was, "Riot loves to nerf him." I bought him right before this patch, and then in the patch they nerfed him. Admittedly, a very tiny nerf, but still, it was funny to see.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Fri May 17, 2013 7:38 pm

Athene's might be viable on Cass since she can get a bunch of assists with her ulti: does the CDR lower the 0.5 second cooldown of her E?

Jarvan's nerf is actually a lot bigger than it sounds: when he plopped down his flag the bonus armour would stack with the armour he passively gets from levelling up his E in any case, so they really hurt his early clear and early resilience. Heck, support Jarvan used to be viable as a kill lane, and now it really isn't thanks to those nerfs. He's still a fantastic early jungler. What I find works well if you can get a solid leash is wolves, then a smiteless blue, smite red, and then gank with double buffs and two ranks in Q. A lot of professional Jarvan players don't rank their W while jungling until like level 10, since it doesn't help out with clearing and the slow doesn't really help out.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri May 17, 2013 7:54 pm

I don't have access to the info right this second, but my understanding is the only nerf to Jarvan is that they decreased the vision radius from the standard, not the armor, and not the radius of effect.

And yeah, I don't intend to bring in W, but just at level 11, I can't kill things fast enough. I can't smiteless blue at level 11 with no runes.

EDIT: Yeah, this is the patch change.

"Demacian Standard
Vision radius of the Standard reduced to 700 from 850"

That is what I am saying. The nerf came right after I bought him, before I could play him, but relatively, it is a tiny nerf.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri May 17, 2013 10:13 pm

Korgan0 wrote:Athene's might be viable on Cass since she can get a bunch of assists with her ulti: does the CDR lower the 0.5 second cooldown of her E?

It doesn't reduce a non-failed E CD. Athene's isn't being built for the CDR on Cass (though it is nice in case you miss a Q, and her ult CD is pretty damn high), it's mostly for the mana regen, AP, and Mres. Cass will hit almost everybody in a teamfight thanks to her ult and W's general use as area denial. Her Q is AoE as well, but not an AoE that's going to hit a bunch of people.

Jara-man is still strong. He'll always be strong too, his utility is just awesome. An AoE slow + terrain creation + AoE knockup and armor shred. He does too much to not be good, and still does noticeable damage.

And yes, the nerf on J4 was just vision range. I didn't even notice they buffed Cass and made Rylai's proc all the way for her E. It's really, really negligible (you're moving faster than them if you land a Q anyways...), but still a nice thing to have.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 pm

You're right, the nerf was a few patches ago. My bad.

If you're lucky enough to have a good Orianna player on your team, Jarvan and Ori go together like peanut butter and jelly. Ori attaches her ball to Jarvan, Jarvan ults, Ori ults and pulls them into the crater thingy, and then ideally you have something like a Miss Fortune ultimate or some other source of AoE damage to utterly wreck them.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat May 18, 2013 3:54 pm

Saying someone has the "second lowest output of all AD carries" is kind of like saying someone is "second poorest of all billionaires".

Plus, she has 650 range. That's something you can't itemize for.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat May 18, 2013 4:12 pm

Surgo wrote:Saying someone has the "second lowest output of all AD carries" is kind of like saying someone is "second poorest of all billionaires".

Plus, she has 650 range. That's something you can't itemize for.

Billionaires, all other things being equal, are strictly better than people with less money, and there is no particular reason billionaires would have to give up something else to be billionaires. But LoL has roles precisely because damage output isn't always the most important thing and if you have it you are definitely giving up other shit.

So it is much more like saying she has the second poorest arm of NFL quarterbacks.

Also, is it just me, or does Range not even help that much after a point, because as Tristana my actual range is the screen size, since I can't find anything to zoom out, so I can either try to unlock my view, or I can shoot people on the edge of the screen, and nothing else.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Sun May 19, 2013 1:44 am

Playing with unlocked view is a good habit to get into, in my experience, like smartcasting.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sun May 19, 2013 4:05 am

Kaelik wrote:Billionaires, all other things being equal, are strictly better than people with less money, and there is no particular reason billionaires would have to give up something else to be billionaires. But LoL has roles precisely because damage output isn't always the most important thing and if you have it you are definitely giving up other shit.

So it is much more like saying she has the second poorest arm of NFL quarterbacks.

This is either a complete failure to understand the metaphor, or just being obtuse for the purpose of being obtuse. Caitlyn's damage output end game is tremendous. Really, it's fucking ridiculous. Even if you were to look at the ADC with the lowest damage output (that would be Ashe, who completely lacks any kind of in-combat steroid), it's still off-the-chains ridiculous. Take what Ashe has, and then add damage because Caitlyn has a steroid that makes her crits crit. (Though post-nerf it's way harder to open the fight with said steroid.)

Kaelik wrote:Also, is it just me, or does Range not even help that much after a point, because as Tristana my actual range is the screen size, since I can't find anything to zoom out, so I can either try to unlock my view, or I can shoot people on the edge of the screen, and nothing else.

It's just you. Play with unlocked camera. Tristana outranges a large number of gap closers (including Flash), which they seem to release every new champion with.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sun May 19, 2013 4:12 am

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:Corki is a lane bully who pokes. His poke only becomes a big deal at 6 (though it's still a thing before then), but his ability to win all-ins is ridiculous. I'm not sure why nobody picks him. He's a graves who doesn't turn into garbage late game.

I think it's because his "not turn into garbage" steroid is really bad. Sure, Corki's damage output is theoretically just a little bit lower than Kog'maw's. But they horribly nerfed his reliable steroid (the passive), and his unreliable steroid (the E) is extremely dangerous to use efficiently.

I've liked to play Corki top when I'm playing with friends, but it kinda necessitates having a really tanky and CC-oriented jungler and support so I don't get to do it as often as I'd like. No Soraka, which for whatever reason was in vogue among my friends for a while.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Sun May 19, 2013 6:50 am

Soraka jungle? Wow.

The problem with Corki afaik is basically just his obscene mana costs early and mid-game. You either have to be really conscientious when trading and poking (difficult against aggressive chamions like cait) or build a manamune/triforce early, which is gonna significantly push back your damage output. Also, his passive was much better before the current League Of Warmogs.

You're right about the jarvan nerf, it was when I first bought Jarvan. I don't know what i was thinking.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun May 19, 2013 7:16 am

Surgo wrote:This is either a complete failure to understand the metaphor, or just being obtuse for the purpose of being obtuse. Caitlyn's damage output end game is tremendous. Really, it's fucking ridiculous. Even if you were to look at the ADC with the lowest damage output (that would be Ashe, who completely lacks any kind of in-combat steroid), it's still off-the-chains ridiculous. Take what Ashe has, and then add damage because Caitlyn has a steroid that makes her crits crit. (Though post-nerf it's way harder to open the fight with said steroid.)

Oh, I see, then the problem is that you are a fucking idiot.

If someone else says that Caitlyn has the lowest output of ADC carries, agreeing that she has the lowest output of the ADC carries but saying that still makes her better than every other non ADC carry champ is fucking retarded. It is even more retarded because it is literally the exact opposite of what you are trying to say, which is that Caitlyn has a higher output than many ADC carries.

So for example, the way to do that analogy is to say "he does not have the 32 worst arm in the NFL, he has the 15th worst, and his decision making makes up for the rest."

Or alternatively, if you are wedded to your stupid money analogy: "She has more money than Ashe, and you are just wrong when you say she has the lowest output of ADC carries."

Yes, I realize that doesn't really use your analogy, but that is a good thing, because your analogy is shit, and the less it is used the better.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Sun May 19, 2013 7:21 am

No, what he's trying to say is that while Cait has a very low output compared to other AD carries she can still do enough to contribute effectively and win teamfights late-game, just by virtue of being an ADC.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun May 19, 2013 7:29 am

Korgan0 wrote:No, what he's trying to say is that while Cait has a very low output compared to other AD carries she can still do enough to contribute effectively and win teamfights late-game, just by virtue of being an ADC.

Um... no, he just said she has more output than Ashe, who is an ADC. Last I checked, non contradiction was still true, so Caitlyn can have:

1) A higher output than Ashe
2) The same output as Ashe
3) Less output than Ashe.

But definitely not 1 and 3 at the same time.