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Korgan0
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Joined: 15 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: League Of Losers Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, I've recently started getting into LoL, and I was wondering if any other denners played. I'm only level 22, but I've had the good fortune of regularly playing with a bunch of very good players since I started playing, so I was learning about warding and pushing lanes and CS and so on since level one. I play pretty much every position, but lately I've been playing a lot of ADC and jungle, usually Graves and Rammus or J4 respectively. My LoL username is the same as my den username, if anyone wants to hit me up for a game sometime.

EDIT:
All the Den League usernames:
Korgan0: Korgan0
Kaelik: Kaelik88
Orion: OrionJA
Ravengm: Ravengm
Mguy: Mguy
You Lost Me: Oxicillin (smurf)
KevinBlaze: Kevinblaze
PseudoStupidity: Big Skler
CapnTthePirateG: DictatorHat


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Surgo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I used to play almost every day. Still do, but a lot less than I used to. Name is the same as my Den name.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have played, but once I got to level 30 I lost interest.

Usually I liked to play Garen or Sona
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I lost interest when they nerfed my already non-competitive sub par favorite (further) into the ground... repeatedly.

I was interested enough that two years ago I wrote this thread about it.

Damned if I know if it still applies, I flat out got sick of "Tanky DPS lol!" and stopped playing. But people are still bumping it and calling it brilliant as of January this year...
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Korgan0
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bruisers are really good, yeah, but the alternative is basically for late games to devolve into "whose ADC has the most gold" and that's no fun for anyone except the ADC. In any case, if you have some decent peel and team coordination, it's possible to deal with bruisers.

Also, if you're honestly whining about teemo not being good, you're just bad at teemo. AP teemo can absolutely wreck anyone mid-game and splitpush well late game (a percentage of AP gets applied to tower damage and you're going to have malady+nashor's tooth), and hybrid teemo is an insanely durable (lifesteal+spellvamp from gunblade) incredible splitpusher with global presence via mushrooms. Teemo doesn't see a lot of usage in comp play since there are much better splitpushers (Shen, TF) and he doesn't bring a great deal to teamfights, but he's definitely not bad by any stretch of the imagination.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Korgan0 wrote:
AP teemo can absolutely wreck anyone mid-game and splitpush well late game (a percentage of AP gets applied to tower damage and you're going to have malady+nashor's tooth), and hybrid teemo is an insanely durable (lifesteal+spellvamp from gunblade) incredible splitpusher with global presence via mushrooms. Teemo doesn't see a lot of usage in comp play since there are much better splitpushers (Shen, TF) and he doesn't bring a great deal to teamfights, but he's definitely not bad by any stretch of the imagination.

Maybe he can now, I have no idea I haven't played for over a year.

But considering those are all things very stupid people said about Teemo back in the day I'm going to assume nothing has changed.

Teemo (was/is) actually really bad at split pushing, as covered in that very thread. nashors tooth is, good lord, a TERRIBLE item unless its been severely rewritten, Teemo is massively bad at EITHER form of lifesteal because hybrid damage makes for double the investment for minimal rewards. And mushrooms got nerfed into the ground and provide NOTHING like global presence anymore back when they nearly doubled the damn cooldown (and nerfed the damage to the floor). You USED to be able to deny a single quarter of jungle, now you can maybe cover one gank path into your own lane.

And AP Teemo? Only if you play vs pre 30 noobs big time (or again, if there have been some serious changes to AP ratios or Teemos general ability set), somewhere there was a very nice article about why AP Teemo was utterly non-viable written by, oh yeah, the 1 guy who actually ever played Teemo successfully at a competitive level. And no, he didnt play AP at a competitive level. No one did. He played on hit effect Teemo. The only build you didn't mention and the only one that was half viable.

Of course like I said. It may have all changed. But that's how it was. I shouldn't be too harsh, you are pre 30 and noob games are basically the only place Teemo is remotely effective, since he only functions against people who don't know how he works. So here are the basic hints to killing a Teemo.

1) Noobs should learn to buy magic resistance. Defensive stats are cheap, too cheap. And good. Too good. In general. You should have SOME from SOMEWHERE, I don't care what your damn build is. Yes even if you AREN'T fighting Teemo (perhaps especially if you aren't). Usually you should have those god damn MR boots. You know the ones. Their MR plus their reduction to durations of things like, yeah, everything Teemo does, including his actual ongoing damage basically mean that on their own you can walk all over his mushrooms even without noticing his whole ultimate.

2) If Teemo Blinding Dart's you, KILL HIM Blinding dart does not stop you fighting. It does not stop ability damage. It does not stop on hit procs. It does not stop the first auto attack already queed DURING it's duration, it's duration is very shot, its duration is SHORTER because you aren't a noob and you probably have those boots. You MIGHT lose 1-2 auto attacks. That is all. Maybe. If you get blinding darted during a fight ignore it. The WORST effect blinding dart has is making people THINK they can't deal damage, stop attacking and maybe even foolishly flee.

3) Teemo is automatically debuffed on hit Hit him. Once. With anything. He slows down. A lot. He has an active to "fix" this, but the duration is short as hell and the cooldown is looooong. This makes him easily gankable and generally incapable of escaping. His mushrooms used to cover this... but they don't anymore.

4) Walk all over his shrooms when appropriate You can eat the shroom damage, no problem. If you have the minimal MR and HP you need to be a competitive champ/build at all. So do that. If you step on one of the 2-3 shrooms he has out while trying to gank him... screw it, these days it's no longer enough to call it off, just keep going and get him.

I mean there are probably other hints I don't recall. But the main one is. Buy those god damn boots or something like them, why the hell aren't you doing that already? I mean I SEVERLY doubt they fixed the biggest most ubiquitous problem of tanky DPS, which was the incredibly budget bargain value of defensive stat items. So really. Learn to beef up. Because if a Teemo is EITHER outdamaging you OR out-tanking you, OR out harrassing you or even able to out awareness your basic wards, you are doing it wrong.
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Korgan0
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, wow, you're in an old, old meta. Basically no-one builds armor or MR to any significant level anymore. The main defensive item you buy is a Warmog's or a GA, unless you have some kind of pre-existing free health (like Cho'Gath). Too many bruisers have innate armour pen (Darius, Xin, J4, etc), and there's always the Big Bad Cleaver. On the other hand, MR is really, really expensive. Spirit Visage is niche, Athene's isn't great, and Merc treads don't really give you that much. Runic Bulwark is a good buy, but it's an aura and also hella expensive. Shit, the main reason Galio counters a lot of AP mids is that it's actually practical to stack obscene amounts of MR on him, thanks to his passive. Also, LW and Void Staff are basically core on every AD/AP carry, which is a flat 35% reduction right there.

Nowadays, Nashor's Tooth is 20% CDR, AS, and AP. Can't speak to what it was back then. It's basically core on AP Teemo and Kayle, along with a few other niche builds.

You're right, Teemo isn't a top-tier champion, but he's definitely viable in certain circumstances.


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Blasted
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I play LoL (as GD Grumbles) around once a week. I still keep up with what's going on,
but I don't have time for gaming ATM.

Teemo was OP when the new 3v3 map was released and pretty much every game featured a Teemo. He was nerfed to stop him wrecking on that map. Also, the AP items were buffed, which helped. AP teemo is still a thing, I've seen it in ranked FWIW.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Korgan0 wrote:
Yeah, wow, you're in an old, old meta. Basically no-one builds armor or MR to any significant level anymore.

...maybe... but then you are also pre-30, and the primary difference that kicked in for me once you hit that level was that before that basically nobody built any survivability... and after that everyone did. Might just be that is still the case.

You'd also see a lot of talking up of pure AD builds, and pure AP builds. But it's mostly wanking. The AD ones actually can work with a VERY supportive and well organized team. But that's seriously high level play there. The pure AP ones... well again, unless there have been sersious changes there are VERY few cases where there are any good pure AP champs at all, AP items were across the board over prices and terrible compared to AD/Tanky and AP champs tended to fill highly redundant roles.

Quote:
The main defensive item you buy is a Warmog's or a GA, unless you have some kind of pre-existing free health (like Cho'Gath).
Can't recall the components for warmogs, but I'm pretty sure GA was a bit too late game. Early survivability was awesome survivability. I mean... sure buy late survivability as well.

Also it doesn't give you the kick ass duration reduction thingy. Like the boots. Or those several other items that didnt manage to be as good as the boots they were supposed to make less ubiquitous.

Quote:
Too many bruisers have innate armour pen (Darius, Xin, J4, etc), and there's always the Big Bad Cleaver.

I thought you said tanky DPS didn't dominate the meta anymore?

But anyway, back in the day anything that penetrated anything had been nerfed to the point that while virtually required to do ANY damage it was basically incapable of keeping pace with the cheap sources of armour and magic resistance. I doubt this has changed, but if it finally has that might actually be interesting. Because it was a SERIOUSLY needed change in the game, since as it was you could sink MORE resources into specializing in nothing but piercing armour/whatever than someone sunk into having armour and doing something else at the same time and STILL fall significantly behind them.

Quote:
On the other hand, MR is really, really expensive. Spirit Visage is niche, Athene's isn't great, and Merc treads don't really give you that much. Runic Bulwark is a good buy, but it's an aura and also hella expensive.

Pretty sure spirit visage was rewritten every second patch forever so god knows what it does now. But if merc treads still give the BIGGEST debuff duration reduction in the game they really DO give you "that much" and if that is the case they are still hands down the best boots, one of the best early survival items, probably the best early game item and possibly even best hands down value for money item.

The fact that I don't seem to know what those other name drops even are suggest the game just has even more early MR items than it had before so I'm guessing the problem is probably getting worse rather than better.

Quote:
Also, LW and Void Staff are basically core on every AD/AP carry, which is a flat 35% reduction right there.

So... basically same old same old. Which was not enough. And which stacked in a way that was sufficiently non-optimal with flat penetration that you basically got one or the other, and never had a guy who could genuinely ignore armour or MR enough to challenge the Tanky DPS meta.

Quote:
Nowadays, Nashor's Tooth is 20% CDR, AS, and AP. Can't speak to what it was back then. It's basically core on AP Teemo and Kayle, along with a few other niche builds.

Yeah. So the same pile of crap it always was. It's primary problem is it's an early game item. Made of early game components. None of which give good early game stats. Then by late game... it doesn't give you enough to justify late game. And its made of lots of items. None of which include any survivability.

I mean sure Teemo's massive nerfs (seriously, huge, like unprecedentedly huge) to his cooldowns made CDR a lot more attractive... but not THAT much more. Not nashors tooth more.

I'm guessing Nashors Tooth basically remains the item that is a damn good indicator of a bit of a noob player. Like those boots with the attack speed bonus.

Quote:
You're right, Teemo isn't a top-tier champion, but he's definitely viable in certain circumstances.

He is/was viable when playing against significantly weaker players. There are/were basically NO champ match ups in which he is strong, a few in which he was slightly less weak but basically if Teemo beat anyone in a 1v1 they were seriously doing it wrong. And since his massive mushroom drop rate nerf he brings next to nothing to the team so... yeah...

Blasted wrote:
Teemo was OP when the new 3v3 map was released and pretty much every game featured a Teemo.

The introduction of what was it "Twisted Treeline"? was indeed probably Teemo's strongest period. Well. Barring back before his first major remake, he was totally different back then.

That period did indeed see several major nerfs to Teemo. But it wasn't because he rocked on the 3v3 (though he did, even if most players at the time refused to admit it). edit: Note however while probably his strongest period during the time I played him he was still regarded as massively UP and seriously que dodged and whinged at at every opportunity. He was basically the go to nerfy joke champion in general at that time.

Riot explicitly nerfed him at the time because they were reworking Exhuast and Blind effects in an attempt to indirectly buff direct AD champions. They nerfed the crap out of Blinding Dart repeatedly, and then again to "keep it in line" with their changes to exhaust. Which they then rebuffed exhuast... but left blinding dart largely useless.

Around then they also did Teemo's second major remake. Primarily with the excuse of making him "more intuitive and fun" rather than as some sort of counter to his success on TT. This involved massive nerfing to Toxic Dart duration and over all damage. And the changes to mushrooms where he got to store them, but they were, at the time and then several times since, repeatedly nerfed in basically every other way.

That was also when Toxic Dart was nerfed to "not stack" in order to be "more intuitive". As they were removing stacking DoTs at the time. Until they then started adding stacking DoTs again. But not Toxic Shot, which due to the WAY they nerfed it actually had a long standing "bug" where increasing attack speed could infact DROP Teemo's DPS.

Notably buying the components of Nashors Tooth would drop you into that odd DPS valley at a key point in early game. Multiple people, including me, tried to point this out, Riot EVENTUALLY noticed it. Eventually. And sort of fixed it. But Teemo remained seriously nerfed in toxic shot damage despite that.

ANYWAY. The major nerfs that put it over the line however and took Teemo from "only idiots play him in competitive games" to "It is no longer even fun to play him in normal queue post 30" were the changes made specifically to nerf that one competitive player who topped solo ranked with Teemo the supposed "Split Push" problem.

So yeah. Teemo was never to my knowledge specifically nerfed to balance the 3v3 map. And if he was that needs reverting because Riot at one point stated they had basically openly abandoned that map and that they no longer do ANYTHING to try and balance it or for it. The major Teemo nerfs all came with official explanations, which weren't that, and the minor ones are typically undocumented accidents or inconsistent "consistency" nerfs that somehow end up harming pretty much only Teemo when reverted for everything else.

Mind you that doesn't mean they might not have been lying about the reasoning behind nerfs. To be honest I think they were. I think they specifically wanted to nerf a single specific competitive player. And also I think they want to nerf of all things the already sub par AP Teemo, specifically because he is strong in low level noob games. AP Teemo's are noob stompers, and that is indeed bad, it's not a good reason to make him unplayable in higher level games, but his nerfs ARE highly consistent with changes specifically to stiff over AP Teemo builds, which aren't used in higher level games, or by that one top level Teemo player. And weren't the reason Riot ever openly gave for those nerfs.

Also there might have been MORE nerfs and a new 3v3 map I don't know about. Though considering Riot's history with churning out new maps when I played... I doubt that. I mean fuck? Is magma chamber even out? Or has it stayed officially "abandoned".
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No, PL's right here. Teemo is still fucking god awful, despite his impressive ability to destroy people who have no idea how terrible he actually is.

Also, unless this has changed in the past month or two, people absolutely do still love MR. It isn't the sort of thing you build around, but it is the sort of thing you spend runes on and makes a nice side effect in your item builds. Building around it never pays off enough to make it worth it, but dipping into it is the threshold between laughing at characters who are secretly shitty at AP but trying anyway and dying hilariously. Buying that much armour is still less common, but not grabbing enough MR to survive bullshit like Teemo is a death sentence.

But there are worse champions and at some point you just have to accept that Riot is more interested in pushing out champions than balancing all of them, and so the number of competitive champions is always going to be a subset of the total champions and whether or not your favorite character/build will survive the next patch is luck.
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Korgan0
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I mean, most of the people I play with are level 30 (mostly in Gold), I use guides written by high-level competitive players, and watch a lot of streamers. I'm not very good, but I'm aware of the current meta. Trust me, everyone stacks health. For christ's sake, they buffed the shit out of BoTRK so it's core on basically every ADC if the other team have even the tiniest bit of health in order to specifically counter this health-stacking meta. Hell, it's even a viable first item on some ADCs, namely Vayne and Kog'Maw.

Bruisers don't dominate, exactly, but they're definitely good. ADC's (if they're decently fed) are still going to be the majority of your damage late game, and if your team is competent enough to peel for you you should be fine.

There's only one 3v3, but magma chamber got revised into a new map (that no-one ever plays).
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSMatticus wrote:
But there are worse champions and at some point you just have to accept that Riot is more interested in pushing out champions than balancing all of them, and so the number of competitive champions is always going to be a subset of the total champions and whether or not your favorite character/build will survive the next patch is luck.

Yeah. I really tried to pick up other champions. I did.

In fact Teemo wasn't even my first favourite. I damn well loved Karthus and Janna, but I played an atypical Janna that was not viable once I hit 30 (and who was indirectly nerfed by over all Janna buffs) Karthus had his best items nerfed to hell then slowly went obsolete with the rise of Tanky DPSers and worse.

I tried to enjoy new champions... but damnit, even though at his best he was "slightly worse than average but playable in normal queue" Teemo was just so much damn fun. Nothing in LoL compares.

Now the tornado dragon god in Smite, that guy was kinda hilarious fun. But I was sorta sick and jaded of the genre by then. I really should play more of THAT game, it was interesting. Only really shocking piece of champ balance I noticed during my brief time with it was that damn ridiculous pig...
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Orion
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The tornado dragon in Smite was pretty fun, but overall that game was bullshit. Now, on to League: I seriously don't think it will change your impression of the game enough to be worth playing, but Korgan is right and you are wrong. You really have no idea how much has changed while you were out. First of all, tank items were nerfed in numbers across the board, and resistance items were also made more expensive. Chain vest went from 45 armor at 700 gold to 40 armor at 720. Null-magic mantle is still 400, but 20 instead of 24 Magic Resist. Low-level damage items, on the other hand, got cheaper and more effective. Longswords are 400 now. BF swords are 1550. They reduced the stats on the top-tier stuff like Infinity Edge and Phantom Dancer to cut the power of endgame carries, but damage items as a whole are better. People actually buy longswords at level 1.

Mercury Treads are not commonly seen any more. For one thing, they just don't effect enough stuff. So many champions know use suppression or knockups/knockbacks that CC reduction is just not that effective at reducing CC. Boots of Swiftness now reduce the effectiveness of slows, which is better than reducing their duration, Quicksilver Sash has an upgrade, and people decided Cleanse was good for some reason. So it's not needed as an answer to CC. Also, people noticed it was way more expensive than other boot options which have become more desirable. Especially, Berserker's Graves. For a variety of reasons, attack speed is now actually good.

Nashor's Tooth *was* redesigned: It's now just AP/AS/CDR. I still don't really like it, but it just got a price increase so someone must have been using it. Getting at least a little magic resistance is still crucial to not getting exploded, but there are relatively few magic resist items any more that are generically good buys, and the total amount available has been reduced, so it's a real sacrifice to try to stack it aggressively.

Teemo was had almost all of his core skills redesigned. Move Quick can now be activated for temporary bonus speed that isn't shut down by damage, allowing him to actually move quickly. Poison now deals about a third of its damage instantly, making it possible to actually kill people with attack speed. He also benefitted hugely from the rise of the so-called "bruiser meta". Provided you built some tank items to not immediately explode, he was really strong in top lane against all those tanky melee dudes because he could punish them so much with one autoattack every time they tried to farm. He was played repeatedly in the world championships. I'm not sure how he's doing right now, but he had his glory days.
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Orion
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

OrionJA
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Calling bullshit: I'm almost positive Teemo was picked (and banned) 0 times in the quarterfinals and up of the S2 world championship.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I also call bullshit approximately more than half of the stuff Orion informed me of happening since I left was stuff that happened while I was there, and which I'd already basically mentioned on this thread. So he isn't even paying attention.

Also a lot of it is patent nonsense. Like seriously, Teemo profiting from the rise of Tanky DPS? Er... no? Being able to harrass modern dashing tanky DPSers in lane? Fuck no? Teemo has terrible range. Every other ranged champ was a better option for that role. There are MELEE champs which were better options for ranged harrassing of melee dudes because they have abilities with longer ranges than Teemo, and don't have an auto-slow debuff that makes them weak to harrassing themselves built in like Teemo has.

edit: And his toxic shot having been "improved" with up front damage and attack speed. FUCK NO. That "improvement" removed stacking, created the DPS pit with improved AS "bug" that went unfixed for ages, and lost MORE DAMAGE TICKS THAN IT GAINED IN UP FRONT DAMAGE. By a large margin, BEFORE you account for the MASSIVE DPS loss from NOT FUCKING STACKING ANYMORE. Also by reducing duration dramatically the DoT was, well, less of a DoT and tends to kill less Noobs and Tryndameres because... its really short and lame.

Repeatedly played in world championships? Not since that one player stopped after the exact, very large, nerfs I've been talking about that ended the last of Teemo's playability. Well unless it turned around again since, but I'm guessing DSM is pointing that out as not having happened.
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Surgo
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Teemo actually saw a pretty significant buff in the entrance to S3, but since then was nerfed pretty hard so I can't say AP Teemo is worth playing anymore (and, obviously, neither can any of the pros) -- it's just too risky.

Teemo's always been a pretty solid top lane bully champion, and will win the lane against most picks. Even if he doesn't win it outright, it's pretty hard for him to loose it. His weakness tends to be the opposite of Darius -- very difficult to gank for a Teemo, while being very difficult to actually gank a (post-6) Teemo. He even transitions well to the midgame, as AP Teemo will simply win by default any contested fight for a neutral objective if the player at all knows what they are doing with their mushrooms.

His real problem is his squish and teamfight presence. Until Runaan's Hurricane sees a significant buff, Teemo is always going to have this problem. The best he can do is peel for the ADC with his mushrooms, but an AP build is simply too squishy to actually do that job properly. Doing lots of damage output yourself is difficult because any team with a brain is going to take note of where you drop a mushroom mid-teamfight.

I think if Runaan's Hurricane is ever buffed to have pretty much any stat besides raw attack speed, Teemo could actually become a good champion. As a 6th item, it really solves nicely his significant lategame problem of "how do I even do damage in a teamfight that's not for a neutral objective", though he rightfully remains really squishy.

Hybrid Teemo is trash. Malady is trash and is worse than Lich Bane in every situation. I never built Nashor's tooth on Teemo even before the nerf unless the team really needed to split push.

PhoneLobster wrote:
edit: And his toxic shot having been "improved" with up front damage and attack speed. FUCK NO. That "improvement" removed stacking, created the DPS pit with improved AS "bug" that went unfixed for ages, and lost MORE DAMAGE TICKS THAN IT GAINED IN UP FRONT DAMAGE. By a large margin, BEFORE you account for the MASSIVE DPS loss from NOT FUCKING STACKING ANYMORE. Also by reducing duration dramatically the DoT was, well, less of a DoT and tends to kill less Noobs and Tryndameres because... its really short and lame.

You really need to pay attention to the patch notes if you're going to complain about this stuff, because the part about it not stacking properly was fixed ages ago. Like, literally the second S3 patch when they realized they reintroduced the bug after fixing it in S2. It does way more damage now as long as you hit the person twice instead of once.

Orion wrote:
Nashor's Tooth *was* redesigned: It's now just AP/AS/CDR. I still don't really like it, but it just got a price increase so someone must have been using it.

Nashor's Tooth was nerfed because it was overpowered on Kayle. That is the only reason.
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Korgan0
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The problem with buffing Runaan's significantly was that certain ADC's that get a great deal of their damage from on-hit effects (Kog'Maw, Vayne, Varus) could very easily become overpowered. Kog'Maw and Vayne are already top-tier ADC's, and could very easily become totally, totally broken.

I don't really play Teemo, but a good friend of mine plays hybrid teemo semi-regularly, rushing a gunblade, and appears to do well. Malady on AP Teemo I guess helps with pushing, but I don't really know.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Even subpar champions and builds can be good if you follow a good strategy or the enemies don't have the experience to deal with you. That's why you see weak champs played effectively in normals. It even goes up to ranked play--a good bronze or silver player can still play crap like karthus jungle and win the game for their team.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Surgo wrote:
You really need to pay attention to the patch notes if you're going to complain about this stuff, because the part about it not stacking properly was fixed ages ago.

Maybe you need to pay more attention. I was complaining about the INITIAL introduction of the "bug" and the initial introduction ALSO of actual non-stacking of toxic shot damage. Even with the "bug" fix toxic shot does not in fact stack, you just get the bigger up front tick more often without reseting the timer on the non-stacking DoT in a nonproductive way. IT USED TO JUST FLAT OUT INTUITIVELY STACK. If you shot someone twice you did your full toxic shot damage and ticks, twice, etc...

It was actually originally more intuitive, it meant Teemo did the damage his abilities said he did, it made him significantly more powerful. They stopped him from doing that, instead only one toxic shot applied at a time. Each time you hit him, the counter on the Dot just RESET. Because of the way that actually works the "bug" was initially introduced back during Teemos second remake WAY before season one. It took a VERY long time to be fixed the first time, the fact that they fixed it AGAIN quickly after reintroducing it is both flat out news to me and sort of pathetic. And the complain that toxic shot doesn't just flat out stack anymore STILL stands if all they did was reintroduce and fix the first tick/reset "bug".

Oh, and while the initial change to the stacking did front load the first tick with more damage it ALSO lost about net 2ish ticks worth of damage to due to significant duration nerf, making it weaker by a large margin even for a 1 attack poke.

And I remind you. Back when Teemo's toxic shot stacked, his mushrooms did MUCH more damage, and blinding shot was actually a remarkably useful anti AD tool, back around the time TT came out and he totally kicked ass on it because he actually COULD shroom the whole damn 3v3 map, he was considered one of the most laughably UP champions in the game. People que dodged him. All the time. On TT.
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Orion
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Teemo was played in S1 championships, not S2.

EDIT: As far as I'm aware, he's still good against dashing bruisers. For a long time he was THE counterpick against Irelia. The thing is that early in the game, gap closers are on really long cooldowns. If you jump in and throw your burst combo on him and he's not dead, you take so much damage on your way out that you gain nothing from it. Also, once he has mushrooms, anyone who dashes to him just hits a mushroom and he walks away.
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Surgo
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
IT USED TO JUST FLAT OUT INTUITIVELY STACK

I don't ever remember a time when I've been playing (about 15 months now) where his toxic shot stacked in the way you are saying it did. It may have before that, but certainly not when they buffed the ratio and upfront damage. When they did that, applying toxic shot a second time would reset the timer but not make everything tick twice. It's been that way since at least as far back as the Fiora patch.

The only champion to have a DoT that has worked that way, at least in the time I have been playing, is Draven.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Surgo wrote:
PhoneLobster wrote:
IT USED TO JUST FLAT OUT INTUITIVELY STACK

I don't ever remember a time when I've been playing (about 15 months now) where his toxic shot stacked in the way you are saying it did. It may have before that, but certainly not when they buffed the ratio and upfront damage. When they did that, applying toxic shot a second time would reset the timer but not make everything tick twice. It's been that way since at least as far back as the Fiora patch.

The only champion to have a DoT that has worked that way, at least in the time I have been playing, is Draven.


Fuck, I know reading PL is a chore, but if you don't know what he is saying, why are you talking to him?

He very clearly said that it didn't stack like that when they changed the ratio. He very clearly said that he hasn't played the game at all for over a year, and that this change was made very early when he was playing.

That means of fucking course it didn't happen in the last 15 months.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Specifically the removal of stacking toxic shot occurred in July 2010, its not actually documented, but back then a lot of things weren't. In fact a lot of things still aren't, the changes to Shrooms that stopped blitzcrank and amumu from hilariously grabbing them for instance (boo unfun change!).

Checking the Teemo patch history I note that despite the loss of stacking toxic shot the period where Teemo was possibly strongest while I played him started in February 2011 then was ended in April 2011 with the doubling of the cooldown of his move quick active ending his briefly newfound actual escape ability and the basic destruction of his shrooms as a useful ability.

Apparently some time in August 2012 after I stopped playing they HAVE in fact given him some fairly substantive buffs, somewhat aimed at AP Teemo, but also very much aimed at AP toxic shot teemo builds, which aren't your grandfather's noob's AP Teemo builds. Oh but they also included a "bug fix" about poison lasting too long... so it was probably a bit of slight of hand to make it so the bug fix didn't leave him feeling like he'd just had a noticable damage nerf (fairly typical for riot)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm no longer sure what this topic is about, but if anyone was wondering: Teemo is currently very bad. No one plays him unless they plan on shutting down the enemy toplaner very hard.
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Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
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