League Of Losers

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:34 am

...You Lost Me wrote:Well she's a marksman with on-hit %CurrentHP plus a life-saving ult. So you siege towers and take objectives, then put out lots of DPS in fights if you get peel.

That sounds like you're saying she should be an extra ADC and honestly, if that's all she's supposed to be then no wonder I'm not finding her useful. Kindred needs a certain number of kills to be worth playing (imo) since they made it so her marking minions ends at 6 (and also that those can be taken by the other jungler. Kindred just seems like an 'ok' champ. I'm trying to figure out what rito thinks she does that's worth picking her over the more usual jungles.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:30 am

1) Kindred, you gank on CD of your ability to select a champ, you literally click on a portrait the second you come out of push to kill the person you are ganking, so no warning.

2) Yeah, she does need kills to get obscenely big. But "just" the 7.5% current HP on hit you get from farming the jungle is nothing to feel too sad about. She's not a meta jungler, by any means, because she brings no CC, and people already have an adc, and LCS teams aren't going to want their mid laner having to come support the adc in the jungle, but she has a very good clear, and lots of damage in teamfights, as far as solo queue goes, if you have a lot of practice being constantly invaded as a jungler and dealing with that, you can use her just fine.

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:05 am

So after last whisper and jungle item, are people building AS? Seems obvious to pick up BoRK for the synergy.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:01 pm

I played a game with Don't Mash Me's Kindred, so I feel like I've got a good idea of the champ now.

1. Farm. If a gank presents itself you can take it, but mostly farm. You're slippery in the jungle so you can even invade a bit when the enemy jungler shows themselves in a lane

2. Build warrior enchant + BotRK, then probably a cleaver or defensive item depending on your teamcomp (do you have peel? Get more damage. No peel? Get some defense)

3. Show up in lanes and rock the turret, take dragons when the opportunity presents due to your lanes being pushed vs the downed turrets

4. Teamfight until you win the game

Kindred is a very capable champ. Ridiculous dps in almost every situation and good for a peel-heavy team. Janna is great for pushing enemies out of her ult.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:35 pm

Using Nautilus I finally became an above average League player: I'm finally winning more than losing, in a consistent way. Any tips to become a better support? I really enjoyed being a tank with a lot of CC and two initiation moves.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:16 am

nockermensch wrote:Using Nautilus I finally became an above average League player: I'm finally winning more than losing, in a consistent way. Any tips to become a better support? I really enjoyed being a tank with a lot of CC and two initiation moves.

Know what kind of ADC you have. Do you have Graves (or other high burst early game ADC)? Then engage a lot. If you land your Q and max your E you'll do a surprising amount of damage early on. Are you baysitting/playing it safe (like Vayne)? Then relax and keep the enemy off of her. I'd suggest maxxing your shield so that you can tank a few hits. Other than that just play as any old Tank with a lot of CC. You can initiate with a good Q nad your peel is great (best in the game IMO). The only time it is at all difficult is against a really hard hitting ranged support like annie and Brand (who has suddenly become popular in my elo for some reason). Not much more you can do as a support.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:20 am

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:I played a game with Don't Mash Me's Kindred, so I feel like I've got a good idea of the champ now.

1. Farm. If a gank presents itself you can take it, but mostly farm. You're slippery in the jungle so you can even invade a bit when the enemy jungler shows themselves in a lane

2. Build warrior enchant + BotRK, then probably a cleaver or defensive item depending on your teamcomp (do you have peel? Get more damage. No peel? Get some defense)

3. Show up in lanes and rock the turret, take dragons when the opportunity presents due to your lanes being pushed vs the downed turrets

4. Teamfight until you win the game

Kindred is a very capable champ. Ridiculous dps in almost every situation and good for a peel-heavy team. Janna is great for pushing enemies out of her ult.

I wouldn't call her DPS 'ridiculous'. It's not bad (considering she's supposed to be an extra ADC apparently) but I don't see her as being impressive. She doesn't do 'more' damage than a fed udyr or vi and has less CC. As you've noted you need your team to basically be effective. You need your team to not lose lanes, you need your team to peel/initiate/tank/cc for you. For all that you can 'possibly' be a ranged yi.I just don't find that to be compelling. I've yet to lose a game to a Kindred that wasn't already won by someone else. I haven't seen any stream of a game where she's been the real deciding factor in winning a game either.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:00 pm

MGuy wrote:Brand (who has suddenly become popular in my elo for some reason).

The same reason for all sudden popularity swings this time of year, Brand support was played by a Korean at worlds (Might have been Chinese, I don't actually remember which team used it but it wasn't NA or EU).

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:33 pm

MGuy wrote:I wouldn't call her DPS 'ridiculous'. It's not bad (considering she's supposed to be an extra ADC apparently) but I don't see her as being impressive. She doesn't do 'more' damage than a fed udyr or vi and has less CC. As you've noted you need your team to basically be effective. You need your team to not lose lanes, you need your team to peel/initiate/tank/cc for you. For all that you can 'possibly' be a ranged yi.I just don't find that to be compelling. I've yet to lose a game to a Kindred that wasn't already won by someone else. I haven't seen any stream of a game where she's been the real deciding factor in winning a game either.

Seeing as Mash was out-DPSing their Ezreal with a similar number of items, and also out-DPSing our slightly behind Jinx, I'd say Kindred's DPS is high. The other thing is she busts tanks up quite well. Her issue is she's got low range, but that fucking ult keeps her from falling over. If she's fighting in her little wolf area she nukes too.

Vi has solid DPS on paper, but in reality she's a melee champion with no slow so she only hits you a couple times if you're avoiding her. Udyr has a similar problem, he has fucking ridiculous DPS... as a melee champ with no gap closer except "run really fast." There's a reason Vi is so viable as a jungler even though her DPS isn't even close to Udyr's. Vi can actually hit people (generally only a couple times, but still) whereas Udyr has to get lucky or be a part of a certain comp to even have a chance of DPSing.

Kindred has high DPS that can actually be used, and Kindred does it right out of the jungle. That's a real thing Kindred does, and while it's questionably valuable (does a team really need a second squishy AD DPS?) it can definitely work. Kindred is good at the thing it does, it's just that the thing it does is really off-meta.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:23 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:
MGuy wrote:I wouldn't call her DPS 'ridiculous'. It's not bad (considering she's supposed to be an extra ADC apparently) but I don't see her as being impressive. She doesn't do 'more' damage than a fed udyr or vi and has less CC. As you've noted you need your team to basically be effective. You need your team to not lose lanes, you need your team to peel/initiate/tank/cc for you. For all that you can 'possibly' be a ranged yi.I just don't find that to be compelling. I've yet to lose a game to a Kindred that wasn't already won by someone else. I haven't seen any stream of a game where she's been the real deciding factor in winning a game either.
Seeing as Mash was out-DPSing their Ezreal with a similar number of items, and also out-DPSing our slightly behind Jinx, I'd say Kindred's DPS is high. The other thing is she busts tanks up quite well. Her issue is she's got low range, but that fucking ult keeps her from falling over. If she's fighting in her little wolf area she nukes too.

Vi has solid DPS on paper, but in reality she's a melee champion with no slow so she only hits you a couple times if you're avoiding her. Udyr has a similar problem, he has fucking ridiculous DPS... as a melee champ with no gap closer except "run really fast." There's a reason Vi is so viable as a jungler even though her DPS isn't even close to Udyr's. Vi can actually hit people (generally only a couple times, but still) whereas Udyr has to get lucky or be a part of a certain comp to even have a chance of DPSing.

Kindred has high DPS that can actually be used, and Kindred does it right out of the jungle. That's a real thing Kindred does, and while it's questionably valuable (does a team really need a second squishy AD DPS?) it can definitely work. Kindred is good at the thing it does, it's just that the thing it does is really off-meta.

So Kindred has DPS comparable to an ok ADC? I believe you. Mostly because I said that. It's not ridiculous like vayne, udyr, vi but yea for an ADC sure. I do not know what Udyrs and Vi you are playing with that have damage they can't use but hey I've seen people who do pretty bad with champs so I am willing to believe you've never seen it. Still none of what you said is compelling. Yea if Kin is on a winning team that caters to her needs I can see her performing adequately as ADC 2. The problem is I don't see myself picking her over Udyr. The only thing I've needed from a team when playing Udyr is someone else who can do a good engage or a team that can live while I split super fast. That's not really asking much since he can gank hard, peel, solo drag, split push like a beast, and still build tank vs Kindred who can maybe do ADC damage.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:21 pm

I have no idea what universe you live in where no one knows how to kite udyr and he does more damage than adcs.

I mean... like, I'm a passable udyr main with a 60% win rate as him, and I don't even know what not doing more damage than an adc would look like.

Also, building tank not very good against attack speed on hit current health champs.

Like, kindred is off meta, and therefore not that great, but she clearly does fucktastic piles more damage than udyr and vi.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:34 am

Kaelik wrote:I have no idea what universe you live in where no one knows how to kite udyr and he does more damage than adcs.

I mean... like, I'm a passable udyr main with a 60% win rate as him, and I don't even know what not doing more damage than an adc would look like.

Also, building tank not very good against attack speed on hit current health champs.

Like, kindred is off meta, and therefore not that great, but she clearly does fucktastic piles more damage than udyr and vi.

Get dev, get randuins, max q. Then if you touch kind one time in bear stance she's dead. She can flash, hop, whatever but all you need is the first stun and she's dead. I don't know how you are an udyr main and can think you can't build against someone like kindred. Vayne yea, she's a problem because she does do ridiculous damage and good kiting potential but kind can't stop Udyr. I know because she hasn't and I have less than a 50% win ratio with him. I have a better win ratio with jung panth and he can beat her up with no trouble beginning to end.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:50 am

MGuy wrote:Get dev, get randuins, max q. Then if you touch kind one time in bear stance she's dead. She can flash, hop, whatever but all you need is the first stun and she's dead. I don't know how you are an udyr main and can think you can't build against someone like kindred. Vayne yea, she's a problem because she does do ridiculous damage and good kiting potential but kind can't stop Udyr. I know because she hasn't and I have less than a 50% win ratio with him. I have a better win ratio with jung panth and he can beat her up with no trouble beginning to end.

Uh... no one was saying you can't build against a kindred. You claimed, for god knows what fucking reason, that udyr does more damage than kindred. If what you meant was "I can 1v1 her at low levels in her jungle" then... yes, you are udyr. That is true.

But we are talking about damage, and udyr does not do that in team fights in even remotely comparable amounts. Udyr can peel, Udyr can in some builds against some team comps dive, but kindred obviously does way more damage, and that is so obviously true that the only reason you thought differently is because you were apparently talking about 1v1ing an adc type champ in the jungle.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:40 am

Kaelik wrote:
MGuy wrote:Get dev, get randuins, max q. Then if you touch kind one time in bear stance she's dead. She can flash, hop, whatever but all you need is the first stun and she's dead. I don't know how you are an udyr main and can think you can't build against someone like kindred. Vayne yea, she's a problem because she does do ridiculous damage and good kiting potential but kind can't stop Udyr. I know because she hasn't and I have less than a 50% win ratio with him. I have a better win ratio with jung panth and he can beat her up with no trouble beginning to end.
Uh... no one was saying you can't build against a kindred. You claimed, for god knows what fucking reason, that udyr does more damage than kindred. If what you meant was "I can 1v1 her at low levels in her jungle" then... yes, you are udyr. That is true.

But we are talking about damage, and udyr does not do that in team fights in even remotely comparable amounts. Udyr can peel, Udyr can in some builds against some team comps dive, but kindred obviously does way more damage, and that is so obviously true that the only reason you thought differently is because you were apparently talking about 1v1ing an adc type champ in the jungle.

And ganks. Yea, as Udyr I'm not trying to play adc in a teamfight. If it comes down to standing and beating people to death/taking objectives and the like Udyr does a great deal of damage though.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:16 pm

Mguy, Udyr does not do as much damage as Kindred because his damage is conditional (that condition being somebody standing still while getting slapped). An Udyr built straight damage vs a Kindred built straight damage ON A SPREADSHEET is probably Udyr doing more DPS...but that doesn't matter because League fights aren't spreadsheets. Kindred is consistently doing its DPS because it is ranged and capable of doing that.

Nobody contests that Udyr has low DPS because his kit is a DPS-machine, the problem is Udyr rarely gets to apply that DPS for more than the duration of a bear stun (and even then the bear stun is hard to get).

Edit: and that's not including that Kindred will almost always built DPS and Udyr will almost always build tanky DPS. Kindred with a normal build way out-DPSes an Udyr.

Edit 2: Also holy shit at me never seeing a good Udyr. I've played with fucking Trick more times than I care to remember. Come the fuck on.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:59 pm

I'm not arguing that an ADC can't out ADC udyr. But she's supposed to be a jungle. So her potential as an ADC to out ADC a real jungler is 'interesting' but I don't care about that. She loses in jungle, she has worse ganks, and basically takes a place on the team that is likely already occupied. So yea when in a team fight she can be an ok ADC but why do I want her as a jungle if she's bad at everything jungle does?

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:21 am

Because she(they?) can change what the jungle does, from tanky dps/engager/straight tank to ADC DPS. She gives you an option for the jungle when you already have tanks and engage and could use more DPS. She also give another option for split pushing or fast tower push strategies. Kindred is a good champ because she opens up more possibilities for gameplay which aren't available from most(all?) other junglers.
So complaining that she doesn't work like other junglers is moot and asserting that she doesn't do DPS as much as other junglers is wrong.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:42 am

Blasted wrote:Because she(they?) can change what the jungle does, from tanky dps/engager/straight tank to ADC DPS. She gives you an option for the jungle when you already have tanks and engage and could use more DPS. She also give another option for split pushing or fast tower push strategies. Kindred is a good champ because she opens up more possibilities for gameplay which aren't available from most(all?) other junglers.
So complaining that she doesn't work like other junglers is moot and asserting that she doesn't do DPS as much as other junglers is wrong.

What options does she open? More DPS? There are better junglers for that. Better split pushing? Better junglers for that. Hell you could take everything you just said and apply it to Yi, Nid, and Jax and they are all better than her.

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:31 am

She opens an extra ranged DPS slot. In general IMO she reaches parity with sololane DPS much faster than either Jax or Yi and Nid is burst. So if you have a bunch of say, tanks, which act as peelers she'll offer safer, more consistent DPS, especially in team fights while still having the option as either a split pusher or tower pusher. She also has a unique ult. I think she's best compared to Kayle. Given the game as over 120 champs with only a limited number of abilities each, there should be no surprise that there's multiple options for any role set, but I think she's unique enough that she adds options to the game that were otherwise rarely met. Unless you jungle twitch, I guess.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:26 am

Looking at her it makes me think that she is the reason they made it so people stopped jungling Vayne. I'd seen a bunch of that for a bit then boom nothing.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:47 am

MGuy wrote:Looking at her it makes me think that she is the reason they made it so people stopped jungling Vayne. I'd seen a bunch of that for a bit then boom nothing.

The reason people stopped Vayne was because Devourer used to give her a full Silver Bolt Proc on two attacks, but then Rito nerfed it so that for every 5 attacks she gets two procs, which is not even worth trying to jungle vayne for, and hard to get it set up better than regular vayne procs.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:57 am

Kaelik wrote:
MGuy wrote:Looking at her it makes me think that she is the reason they made it so people stopped jungling Vayne. I'd seen a bunch of that for a bit then boom nothing.
The reason people stopped Vayne was because Devourer used to give her a full Silver Bolt Proc on two attacks, but then Rito nerfed it so that for every 5 attacks she gets two procs, which is not even worth trying to jungle vayne for, and hard to get it set up better than regular vayne procs.

That's right. Now I remember. That's the nerf that cut that out.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:22 pm

MGuy wrote:What options does she open? More DPS? There are better junglers for that. Better split pushing? Better junglers for that. Hell you could take everything you just said and apply it to Yi, Nid, and Jax and they are all better than her.

Nid isn't a DPS champ; Yi and Jax are both melee ranged. Once again Kindred is doing her DPS very consistently, whereas Yi and Jax both have to not get peeled to do their damage. Then there's the ult, which makes her safe in spite of her 500 range.

Kindred is a better DPS than any meta jungler because she can build it and actually apply it. DPS on paper doesn't matter. The big thing she brings is fast and safe turret pushes from the jungle, as well as her teamfighting.

Also, Vayne jungle was always bad. They made it worse by nerfing the item, they didn't actually change its interaction with her, did they? That's a low blow.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:06 pm

MGuy wrote:
nockermensch wrote:Using Nautilus I finally became an above average League player: I'm finally winning more than losing, in a consistent way. Any tips to become a better support? I really enjoyed being a tank with a lot of CC and two initiation moves.
Know what kind of ADC you have. Do you have Graves (or other high burst early game ADC)? Then engage a lot. If you land your Q and max your E you'll do a surprising amount of damage early on. Are you baysitting/playing it safe (like Vayne)? Then relax and keep the enemy off of her. I'd suggest maxxing your shield so that you can tank a few hits. Other than that just play as any old Tank with a lot of CC. You can initiate with a good Q nad your peel is great (best in the game IMO). The only time it is at all difficult is against a really hard hitting ranged support like annie and Brand (who has suddenly become popular in my elo for some reason). Not much more you can do as a support.

Thanks! And yeah, this is the main problem as a support: once you're stuck with a bad carry, you're screwed. Sometimes I see that the other lanes are winning so I just endure it until we get to the team-fight stage, and hope that we can work over a bad ADC.

I think I'll buy Garen next. My last two defeats were to teams that had an unkillable Garen top. Shit is crazy.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:16 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:Also, Vayne jungle was always bad. They made it worse by nerfing the item, they didn't actually change its interaction with her, did they? That's a low blow.

Vayne Jungle was always bad, it but went from bad and shitty ganks and hard to do, and behind on farm and then eventually kicking off a badass way to good jump up in ability when you become sated.

But the change to the item was specifically a change from procing on every other ranged attack to procing on one out of every 5 ranged attacks, so that cool think you could do where any time you could get two attacks you could proc bolts is now that you can maybe set it up to work if you count autos in your head and refuse to auto minions or enemy champs you will only be able to hit once.