[Gatejammer] Finality: Brainstorming

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Post by virgil »

Needs an "In Their Own Words" section like crazy. From what I can glean on your changes, their platform is "you should be able to buy things." For one, this platform feels too tacked on, especially since the cult of personality traits remain thick. The fact a major internal conflict is people *not* wanting to be allowed to buy things is a red flag in my eyes. Their control over Portal Pentagon comes off like their prior control over the Steel Workers, physical proximity rather than any kind of philosophical draw.

Having your political stance be "the free exchange of goods & services," in an interplanetary trade hub where fiends are a major demographic...should there also be an Arsonist's Guild in the City of Brass? What is outlawed in a city that explicitly includes the soul trade and has a population of literal sex fiends? You've essentially created a faction that fights for the right to sell drugs...in front of a legal opium den.
Last edited by virgil on Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prak »

So, what, is everything legal in Finality?

For some reason I was under the impression that there would still be some controlled substances and illicit trade. Hell, even if all substances are legal the Hungry still deal in weapons (just because weapon sales are legal doesn't mean there isn't a criminal industry in them), sex and counterfeits.

But, eh, fuck it. Maybe there just isn't a way for a gang to be a faction. I certainly can't find something that isn't tacked on anyway. Even if I went "Well, lets see... the mob's political stance would be based on their home culture values, so...." it would still feel "tacked on." Especially when "the fixer faction has control over the neighbourhood all goods come in through" feels like "because it was within walking distance" rather the natural place for fixers to set up shop.
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Post by virgil »

Prak wrote:Especially when "the fixer faction has control over the neighbourhood all goods come in through" feels like "because it was within walking distance" rather the natural place for fixers to set up shop.
It's not a problem for them to set up HQ in Portal Park. It's a problem that you expect people who use the portals to join your faction for any reason other than proximity. Again, you have the faction arguing for legalization in front of a legal opium den.

The reason your offering felt tacked on is because that's what it is. Your explicit goal is gang first, political platform later. With the Brotherhood of Blood's secondary goals, it can easily be viewed as a gang. But that's a trait that takes backseat to its public stance on public education. Even the Eyes of Fury encourages criminal enterprise as a major platform, but for the primary purpose of civil rights activism. You do the precise opposite, giving exacting & dominating detail of how the founder played Saint's Row, followed by a likely philosophy that would describe his actions as morally just.
So, what, is everything legal in Finality?
Well, this is an interplanetary trade hub based in this setting's equivalent to Hell. It explicitly includes a soul market and population of sex demons. I am all ears if you can name a product that this environment would actually want to prevent the transaction of. Near as I can predict, the black markets of Finality would consist of stolen or duty-free merchandise. None of your suggested platforms thus far have been positions that would strongly support theft and tax-evasion, let alone in a manner that random people would support ("tired of personal property laws? join today!")
Last edited by virgil on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:49 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Omegonthesane »

How much does Finality lose by having an "odd faction out" ideology-wise - a faction that is after "profit" rather than trying to specifically push an ideology, against which the more political factions can be contrasted?
Last edited by Omegonthesane on Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by virgil »

If you presume a transient population of one million, it will significantly be people using the portals at planar standard day speed. Assuming half are only in Finality for 24 hours, that will require a minimum of 35 portals being used each round, continuously, 24/7/365. Another 5 is required to sustain the other half of the transient population if their average stay is a week. These are absolute minimums for the transient population alone. For the permanent population, if the average citizen leaves Finality once per year, then we need 3 more portals running at max capacity. As soon as we have portals running slower than max capacity, then we need proportionally more portals to accommodate the throughput to sustain the population we've established for the city.
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Post by virgil »

It gets crazier. If we apply the Pareto Principle on both individual portal traffic average and comparative portal traffic, then we're looking at nearly 700 portals. This is a very rough assumption, of course, but I personally like the Pareto thing.
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Post by Username17 »

Although the numbers go down somewhat if some of the portals are macro-portals that people cram into carts and then go through 40 people at a time. But yes, I would assume the total portal nexus would have to have around five hundred to a thousand portals. Some of the portals are explicitly not in the Pentagram, but then some of the portals are probably shitty portals that operate slowly or go places people don't want to go. So for the whole city, a thousand portals is probably a good estimate.

As for having a pro-commerce faction, I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The city is already largely given over to being an extra-dimensional flea market and the unit of account is for the most part carried barter or draft letters from the Bank of Finality. The kinds of commerce regulation that libertarians rail against in our world simply don't exist yet to shake your fist at. There's no FDA or ATF that's keeping you down in the first place. If you want to sell a faulty sword or sell a bag full of shaved cats as baby displacer beasts you just do that. The only penalty for that kind of fraud is the threat that the guards might be swayed to take the side of people who beat the crap out of you if they figure out they've been had. There aren't licensing bodies or citizenship numbers.

You pop out of an extradimensional portal with a cart full of Giffian bang juice and the portal guards try to figure out how much to tax that, and they make up a weight of silver or maybe just take some of your bang juice and try to figure out what to do with it. And then you go off and sell it to one of the local merchants or you set yourself up a stall somewhere and sell it yourself. And then you leave the planet and maybe never come back. There's no end of the year income taxes or board certification.

If you want to have a faction that's really concerned about commerce, they pretty much have to be arguing for more regulation. Because Finality operates at a level of unregulated commerce that hasn't existed anywhere on Earth for the last hundred years and is frankly hard for modern people to even imagine the consequences of.

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Post by Prak »

I've pretty much given up on the idea of the Hungry. I've tried multiple times to write something that works, and, I'm sure it's just me, but I can't get from the basic concept to a working faction. So... whatever. They can just be one of the larger gangs of the probably thousands of gangs in Finality, and I'm going to stop trying to cram them into a faction spot.

Might try to write an actual faction named "The Hungry" but fuck the Saints Row faction.
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Post by virgil »

Finality Economy

As part of a hub where the people and goods of a thousand worlds gather to trade, portals to and from here are under more restrictions. These restrictions are an imposition of the city of Finality and the Inspector General, rather than any inherent magic within. Before using any of Finality’s portals, one must pay a fee of 2sp per person (and their personal equipment) and an additional 2% tariff based on the inspector’s value assessment of the traveler’s cargo. Due to the simply incredible variety of products that pass through the portals of Finality, inspectors are expected to categorize the traveler’s cargo into one of the listed trade goods and charge the tariff accordingly.
Trade GoodsValue Per
Wheat (1lb)1cp
Flour (1lb)2cp
Chicken (1ea)2cp
Iron (1lb)1sp
Tobacco (1lb)5sp
Cinnamon (1lb)1gp
Goat (1ea)1gp
Ginger/Pepper (1lb)2gp
Sheep (1ea)2gp
Pig (1ea)3gp
Linen (1sq.yd.)4gp
Salt (1lb)5gp
Silk (1sq.yd.)10gp
Cow (1ea)10gp
Saffron/Cloves (1lb)15gp
Ox (1ea)15gp
Human slave (1ea)100gp
Copper (1lb)5sp
Silver (1lb)5gp
Gold (1lb)50gp
Platinum (1lb)500gp

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Post by virgil »

We need to decide on the rough tech level of Finality. While desmodu are highly advanced, and magic is obviously at the level of making interdimensional gateways, so major concerns of anachronism aren't actually a concern. While I'm not advocating nitty gritty elements, at least considering broad sweeps of standard tech will influence things.

Does it look like SigilVictorian London, with full implication of an industrial revolution? Are there demographics of people who can individually do an order of magnitude more work than a human in whatever industry to give the appearance of industrialization in sufficiently metropolitan areas? Or is the tariff system sufficiently profitable that only portal hubs like Finality can sustain this level of urbanization (paper's cheap because Finality skims 2% off the production of several nations that pass through its gates and has more than it knows what to do with)?

ADDENDUM: Any additional ideas for nicknames, landmarks, and other notes for the various blank spots in the precinct list?
Last edited by virgil on Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Ancient History »

As far as "tech level" goes, the late medieval is quite forgiving as it covers a broad range of tech levels, provided certain resources/techniques are kept secret relative to their own planes or cultures; even in the case of celestial or infernal beings that may have considerable knowledge of physical and supernatural laws, they may be stuck in old ways of thinking and not worked out all the practical applications of those laws.

So, for example, let's say as a given that electronics are right out. Black powder might exist, but probably not in any practical form outside a few primitive weapons on select planes where the alchemists have built up a pretty good scholarly network. Prized technologies are those that require special skill, technique, or materials - crystal glass, concrete, Damascus steel (or in this case, adamantine and mithril). Probably the basic concept of a lot of mechanical devices - water-powered mills, human and animal and golem-powered treadmills, wooden cranes, water clocks, catapults, etc. - are known, if not universally understood, but their implementation would depend on available resources and knowledge; if you've got a surfeit of slaves/warm bodies (like a goblin warren), your labor-saving devices fall down before brute force methods...unless you're building something big (but then again, why not just hire a giant?)
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Post by Username17 »

People in Finality have access to some incredible power sources and even some straight up perpetual motion machines. Gates that pour water or create heat differentials, for example. However, energy transfer efficiency is mostly crap. Mostly you get some sort of free energy upwelling, and you're lucky if the locals can manage something as efficacious as slapping an undershot wheel on a stream.

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Now where that's all thrown out the window is crafts projects by wizards. Finality doesn't have an agreed upon millimeter, so things cannot be made to millimeter tolerances. But while there are no global (let alone trans-planar) standards, wizards can make copies of things very precisely. So there are clockwork contraptions that are so finely made that they can be like flying birds and even people. But two clockwork men don't have interchangeable parts. Each is made to a completely arbitrary set of measurements and kept to them by magic.

So society has the rivet but doesn't have the nut and bolt. And it has strong AI robots but doesn't have combine harvesters.

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Post by Ancient History »

Golem horses to pull plows, but no locomotives or steam engines - a train is literally pulled by teams of golem horses, and you have to get out at each gate and get on a different train because the rails are built to different gauges.
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Post by Prak »

Why even put the train (directly) on rails? Tenser's Floating Disk gives you a "force platform is tethered to a given point and follows it" effect. Each set of rails has it's own set of Floating Disk Emitters, and cars are held by the force platforms. Cars are agnostic, even if every rail has different measurements.


What sort of power level does Finality start at? Can you reasonably play a first level game or do you have to start higher?
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Post by Ancient History »

It's an issue of cost. You can churn out iron rails at a foundry, or maybe even fabricate them en masse with a properly formatted wall of iron spell. Permanent magical effects tend to be prohibitively expensive. That was why Eberron's lightning-trains were bullshit.
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Post by virgil »

So...make a floating road with none of the benefits of a rail? With the kinds of weight limits inherent in a floating disc, you're going to run into serious cost issues. About the best you'd get is something like this.

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This is nominally a D&D setting, so level 1 is doable. The density of powerful entities does necessitate for adventures to be different from the typical murder hobo lifestyle, because you're unlikely to know if the neighborhood watch is a Mummy Lord until it's too late. Not that you can't do your dungeon crawl and murder hobo adventures; you just need to take a gate to somewhere with tombs and less people. Adventures within Finality need to have the personal touch; similar to Shadowrun in many ways.
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Post by Ancient History »

Like Frank and I pointed out, you can't really approach this with any sort of modern technological paradigm in mind. Beautiful and elaborate clockwork gizmos exist, but interchangeable parts don't - so you can have a high-quality rifle of finest Dwarven workmanship, but it's going to be hand-bored and the bullets it fires may have to be made especially for it. A lot of the technological solutions Renaissance architects and engineers were forced to come up with aren't going to be necessary because there are relatively cheaper and more accessible magical solutions - which in turn means that the principles involved in a lot of that stuff aren't going to filter down or out to lower-level applications either. So you're going to be looking at a relatively low spread of technological development, competing standards (where standards exist), and a lot of solutions that are very wasteful or overcomplicated for what they need to do. There's probably a Mind Flayer village dorm that uses spheres of annihilation as garbage disposals, and some clever gnomes figure out how to take down a wall and direct the sewer into one of them, simultaneously stopping the cholera epidemic and devastating the local Underdark ecology that relied on the water.
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Post by virgil »

Mud Puddle “You shall work your way up from nothing to an extreme state of poverty.”
Bricklayers, ragpickers, ditch diggers, beggars, and the destitute. Wretched houses with broken windows with rags and paper: every room let out to a different family, and in many instances two or three. Like the Shades, few voluntarily live here, but escape is notably less likely. Named for the two to three story mud brick buildings and open puddles, it is predominantly human and goblinoid, and a proper census has repeatedly failed because of the constantly shifting population. The density indicates a lower bound of 200,000 residents, but it can easily be double this. Incomes, for those able to find work, is almost entirely that of unskilled labor found throughout the city and this is where they squat.

Lyre Building: Behind great sandstone walls is a five story slavehouse. Formerly a morgue, it was bought out by a djinni noble to provide living quarters for five thousand slaves. The turnover is continual, but their rates are some of the most competitive in the market. Once every two months, the djinn owner visits the Lyre Building to grant a single wish for food and water for the slaves, otherwise leaving the management in charge of the day-to-day affairs.
Last edited by virgil on Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by virgil »

Final Watch The history of the Final Watch covers a rich and varied history. Its origins and classifications are debated virulently amongst graybeards, as some disagree that prior incarnations with differences in structure, delegated authority, or even official name can legitimately be listed as the same organization. Regardless of when it began, the current security formation known as the Final Watch serves the government of Finality and its Precincts.

It is important to understand that while the Final Watch are analogous to the police, they do not have the same authority or even perform many of the duties associated with contemporary law enforcement. The following are their vested authorities…
  • Defend the City This is essentially the only time they are legally empowered to use lethal force. When a force immediately threatens its citizens, such as a monster or person on an active killing spree. Force is also permitted in the situation of public riots due to the severity of damage threatened, though this generally requires specialized units to be called in.
  • Seize Counterfeit Notes & Dangerous Weapons The civil forfeiture of counterfeit currency & bank notes is widely considered the Final Watch’s primary duty. Every precinct employs at least one squad of investigators specifically delegated to investigate reports of fraudulent notes. They are also legally protected in cases of discovering dangerous magical items and similar weapons that pose a risk to the population at large, generally storing such seizure in the Armory.
  • Arrest Suspects of Treason Detention of individuals under suspicion of plotting against Finality and its economy on the whole.
  • Extradition Once in awhile, foreign powers seek an individual that sought to use Finality as a sanctuary. In the interests of diplomacy, there are exist options for said foreign powers to ask for the Final Watch to capture and give them custody. The most common arrests are made for apostates, and are frequently extradited to the Apostasy Prison.
  • Truancy Enforcement The Final Watch’s equivalent to the Bureau of Internal Affairs. Their power to enforce a code of conduct within the organization is rarely used, and in fact primarily act as hiring and attendance management.
  • Drafting A semi-independent extension of Truancy Enforcement, they work to enlist & deputize individuals on a case-by-case basis as needed for Finality. They are commonly known as “Innkeepers” among the adventuring community.
  • Report Theft Unless hired as personal bodyguards, the Final Watch is not empowered to detain or even punish thieves, but their testimony is acceptable evidence. Victims of theft can expect them to serve as witnesses in court, for a cost to their time.
  • Collect Taxes The lifeblood of Finality’s financial health. The most important function of the Final Watch is collecting toll fees from those who use the portals of Finality, and the services rendered in making sure the collection and procession of travelers go smoothly.
  • Serve Summons/Warrant Beyond suspicion of treason or a requisite of extradition, essentially the only time a member of the Final Watch can arrest or truly detain someone is when they have a summons or warrant from the appropriate court they go before.
The specific interpretations of their duties, and any additional powers and regulations, vary between precincts and their associated legal structure.
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Post by virgil »

Seal of Finality
There should be a symbol that represents Finality, that will be on the flag, on official documents, on money, and incorporated in the uniform of the civil servants. Like what the clan symbols are supposed to be in Vampire, the core design needs to simplify to something simple, with additional details as relevant to how much money is going into it.
I propose the core element of the Seal of Finality is a gray diamond with a blue star at the bottom vertex.

Branches of the Final Watch
Each 'branch' has their own badge/emblem worn by its members, a slight modification of the Seal of Finality. The more elaborate and detailed the badge, the higher rank the guard is.
  • Porter - The largest branch and to many, the first face a traveler speaks to in Finality. Porters serve as both toll-collectors and guards on both sides of a portal, and are all equipped with some manner of calling for backup. Their seal is that of a door either inside or containing the diamond of Finality.
  • Innkeeper - Officially named Truancy Enforcement, they are both (in)human resources and internal affairs. They enlist new members and manage contracts with adventuring parties who are better suited for certain jobs of interest to the Final Watch. They also manage debt collection in its various ways. Their seal is a mug of ale either inside or containing the diamond of Finality.
  • Watchmen - Porters serve as the face for travelers passing through Finality, but the Watchmen are the face for residents. Serving as the eyes of the Final Watch, their testimony is given great weight in the court, and so they try to make themselves witnesses to all manner of crimes. They are not an immediate threat to criminals, as they are not empowered to arrest or even punish beyond exceptional circumstances; but their testimony can ensure a warrant is put out, or ensure that the defendant is found guilty in court. Their seal is that of a lidless eye either inside or containing the diamond of Finality
  • Summoners - The branch of the Final Watch called upon to serve a summons or detain someone with a warrant out on them. Functionally bounty hunters, they are occasionally named Bloodhounds. Their seal is a summoning circle either inside or containing the diamond of Finality.
  • Treason Seeker - These are the elite, called upon to strike down counterfeiters, seize known apostates at the request of their wronged church, and AWOL members of the Final Watch. They are the most like adventuring parties, and have been known to be recruited from their ranks. Their seal is that of a bloodied thorn inside the diamond of Finality.
  • Biters - A largely non-violent branch, they test and investigate potential counterfeits, as well as appraise more esoteric cargo that passes through Portal Nexus to ensure proper tolls. Their seal is a bent gold piece inside the diamond of Finality.
Last edited by virgil on Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by virgil »

How would debt collection likely be handled in this city? A location that thrives on merchants would undoubtedly support some form of enforcement of owed money, which will also tie into the general question of how loans would be handled.
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Post by OgreBattle »

virgil wrote:How would debt collection likely be handled in this city? A location that thrives on merchants would undoubtedly support some form of enforcement of owed money, which will also tie into the general question of how loans would be handled.
The money minted by the city is enchanted.
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Post by virgil »

What would be a good way to describe the nature/origin of fiends in Gatejammer? They're obviously not entities of purest evil, as they are forming civilizations that pose no existential threats to others, at least any more than what humanity would generate given enough power. Should they just be souls that have forged themselves into new life, molded into a theme appropriate for the afterlife world they are in?
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Post by Ancient History »

The Ancient Ones, the original inhabitants of Baator, were among the first races in the multiverse - a race of parasites that preyed on others, they conquered and enslaved, saw the rise and fall of Illithids and dragons, so that most races remember them as the Enslavers, the original boogeymen in the dark...until, by their own hubris and treachery, they fell, were imprisoned, their power broken...

...and their servitors took their mantle, their arcane technologies, and their lore. Now the Ancients are almost forgotten, except by the Aboleths, and even the Fiends forget that they are but inheritors of the original evil.
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