[OSSR]Factol's Manifesto

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Ancient History
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[OSSR]Factol's Manifesto

Post by Ancient History »

Factol's Manifesto

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FrankT:

Today we're going to do something a little bit different. Rather than just having one person get all trashed and rant about a book, we're going to have two. AncientHistory and I are going to be reviewing the Factol's Manifesto together. I think AncientHistory is going to be on Team Nostalgia and I am going to be on Team Rage. In any case, there will be much reading, much ranting, and much drinking.
AncientH:

Sigil, the default setting for PLANESCAPE™ has its literary roots in Michael Moorcock’s Tanelorn, First Comics’ Cynosure, Edward Bryant’s Cinnabar, Roger Zelazny’s Amber and Roadmarks, and more interdimensional bars than I can readily name. The great thing about the City of Doors is that it deliberately tosses out a lot of the conventional nonsense that Mister Cavern and the players have to sort through—government, currency, geography—and PCs of any level can interact with a bunch of things that would normally kill them if encountered in a dungeon setting. It’s a lawless hive of interdimensional scum and villainy, and Luke Skywalker wouldn’t have gotten out of there without a tattoo and losing his virginity to a transvestite modron.
FrankT:


More mead for me then! PLANESCAPE™ was part of TSR's push to make settings for 2nd edition AD&D that would sell AD&D to people and also make the slightest fuckwidth of sense and hold together given the crazy shit that was canonically available for high level AD&D characters to encounter. Other endeavors in this series tended to sequester the high level bullshit far away. Ravenloft divided it all up with mists, Birthright just forbid people from getting to high level, and so on. Planescape went straight for the jugular by trying to get a handle on the multiple infinities that AD&D had running around. Kind of a tall order to make any sense of, remember that this is the map of the outer planes that they inherited:
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And they turned it into this:
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All fixed!
AncientH:

Like Dark Sun, an effort was made to give PLANESCAPE its own distinctive identity by way of the artistic talents of Tony DiTerlizzi (who is now much more famous for the Spiderwick books). For reference, this is what passed for a furry back then:
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On top of that, they had a custom font that eerily presaged certain elements of 133+ and a penchant for using this godawful pale brown color for headers and quotes that probably made scanners shit themselves and die. Like other AD&D books, the division between fluff and crunch was minimal, so that you could read two paragraphs of fluff and then the line you’re reading ends with telling you to go buy A Player’s Guide to the Planes for more info.
FrankT:

The big problem with all out war between nine different alignments is that it's basically unplayable, especially if the PCs aren't all exactly the same alignment (which there was every reason to believe they would not be). The Factions were supposed to be groups that could have goals that made any sense to people (while TSR employees were still required to claim that you could make sense out of Law and Chaos, I think most of them understood at least on some level how fucking stupid it all was), and also to be groups that were small enough that they could have meaningful successes and failures and agendas you could plausibly justify working for or against. Just have that floating in the back of your mind in the rest of the book: the Factions are there to make the philosophies and battles of ideology that define the planes more accessible to the player characters.

Credits & Introduction
AncientH:

A lot of familiar names here, not all of them present. If the whole book looks like a series of Dragon Magazine articles circa 1995, well, there’s a good reason for that: Rich Baker was involved. One of the fun things from this unique time period is the emergence of what TSR called the Electronic Prepress Coordinator. I’m not entirely sure what the fuck that is, but given that this isn’t RIFTS were somebody was still cutting and gluing things together into a physical document, I think that was an early precursor to what layout artists do nowadays – take the art, and the text, and put them together and make them pretty for print.
FrankT:

Almost everyone who worked on this book was out of the TSR writing pool by the time 3rd edition came out, so no one gives a fuck about these people. Considering how well this book was received, I find that odd. The only names you'll recognize are Rich Redman and Monte Cook who both get thankyous rather than credits per se. I suspect that they also didn't get paid any money, because we are talking about TSR in 1995. Rich Redman gets extra special thanks because he wrote a Dragon Magazine Article about faction ranks that this book is apparently going to steal from. Na zdravi!
AncientH:

The introduction officially begins on page 2, because the table of contents was on page 1, and it about sets the tone for the entire book both in form and content. 1995 was very big on the book as a pseudo-artifact, a literal document from another place that a reader could pick up in their hands and immerse themselves in the world, hopefully while not stroking off to any of the bare breasticles on display in the margins. Not that we’ve come across breasticles just yet. So most of the book is written as in-character, though again it suddenly veers out-of-character to plug additional AD&D PLANESCAPE books and provide game information with no fucking notice. There are little floating quotes from random people that the main text works around—unlike Shadowrun or Earthdawn, AD&D never quite figured out a non-intrusive way to add annotations. In fact, the main text has to do double-time being indented around the weird graphics snaking across the page; they look like pieces of crumpled paper with a slight 1st-generation photoshop style shadowing effect.
FrankT:

The whole “many Bothans died to bring us this information” opening was supposed to make you want to read the rest of the book. But really it underscores how completely ridiculous this all is. We aren't talking about infiltrating North Korea or something, we're talking about scouting out the policies of the political parties of your home town. Getting this information for each faction should be like five minutes of work for a Doppelganger. Or a Succubus. Or really any shapeshifting telepath you want to name. This is second edition AD&D, so there are a lot to choose from.
AncientH:

To add to what Frank said, this is a more-or-less tried-and-true formula you see in a lot of books even today—there’s an official-sounding term for it which I completely forget, but I’ll call it the Forbidden Fruit Gambit. The more secret and verboten it’s supposed to be, the more difficult and dangerous it was to get into your hands, the more readers are supposed to want it. Shadowrun used this same sort of trick many times in books like Tir Tairngire, Tir na nOg, and Aztlan; a lot of occult books still use it. However, as Frank said, for this to work the premise has to be believable and the contents have to deliver a little—but by the Nine Hells, this is Sigil. Some of these groups should be standing on the sidewalk handing out pamphlets in many languages advertising their views.
FrankT:

No doubt the ever present Planscape-speak is going to grate on my nerves tremendously by the time we get to the end, but for now I'm handling it all OK. I will say that it is beyond fucking bizarre to write your introduction in-character and then use the trademark symbol on the word “PLANESCAPE™”. It was the mid-nineties, and apparently no one ever told authors back then to segregate their language between when they are talking to the characters in the world and when they are talking to the players of those characters.

The index promises us a 6 page introduction, but it is in fact only 3 pages long. Each subsequent chapter is dedicated full-on to a single faction. I'm not sure if the different faction chapters were written by the same or different people because the book credits three designers but no writers at all. The intro gives us a general system for ranks in any factions, which I'm pretty sure is worse than having had them just not do that. The bottom rung are “Namers”, which is a fine enough word for people who identify as members of the party but don't have any especial pull in it. The other three are (in order) “factotum”, “factor”, and “factol”. Someone obviously thought they were being super clever by having the three ranks above new recruit all be a variation on the word “faction”. But that's super confusing. Also, “factol” is not a word but “factotum” means a personal assistant to someone high up, while “factor” just means someone who is acting on orders from someone else. Meaning that by any rational reading, their name for rank 2 is a higher ranking name than their name for rank 3. Considering how close the words are to each other, having them ranked differently than their English definitions would imply is certainly unfortunate.
AncientH:

Factions in Planescape remind me a lot of the gangs from The Warriors; they’re all supposed to wear the same outfit so that they seem slightly less silly, and some gangs are supposed to be more bad-assed than others but you can’t tell just by looking. The quick reference guide to Factions is mostly worthless, but I like that they at least make an effort to sum up the binding philosophies which are the only thing putting these people together in one sentence. In this way they’re a bit like the various sects, clans, and tribes from World of Darkness, but with less hard-coded mechanics (at least at low membership status).
FrankT:

Many of the fifteen factions make even less sense than the nine alignments do, but I guess we'll get to that when he hit the individual faction writeups. Rebutting the minimalist descriptions in the table is unfair. I will say however that the general rule that you can only be in one faction is pretty hard to defend. Sure, there's mechanical reasons for it (being in a faction gives you bonuses, being in two factions would give you two sets of bonuses), but there's no in world reason for it that makes any sense. The faction philosophies don't always address the same things, with some having extremely esoteric philosophies about the nature of perception or the meaning of gods, while others have extremely concrete philosophies about what constitutes good public policy. It's like insisting that you can't be a democrat or a republican if you've already declared yourself to be a Christian or a Buddhist... or an electrician for that matter.
AncientH:

Just adding to what Frank said, it also doesn’t help that there are at least a couple hundred “dead” Factions, some of which are more interesting than the ones that finally made it into this book. (Google: “Incantifier”) Likewise, there are some unfortunate misconceptions of language here—the Anarchists of Planescape are not real-world anarchists—and trying to map these philosophies to the nine-alignment planar setting is weird. Neutral Good but want to be an Anarchist? Fuck you, their headquarters are in Carceri.

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Post by Ancient History »

The Athar
Those who believe the gods are frauds.
AncientH:

Athars appeal to the type of do-it-yourself player that doesn’t like their character beholden to anybody. It doesn’t have to be that the player or character is an atheist per-se, just that they don’t like being dependent on a deity for juice, or maybe just don’t like having to adhere to their ruleset. So while people don’t generally mind getting healed by the cleric, playing the cleric is often a bit of a mug’s game.

On the other claw, the Athar mindset is really tied into tree other popular theme of mid-90s gaming: Gods Need Prayer Badly, the idea that belief shapes reality, and the idea that there is one overgod behind everything. The former you may recognize as basic 1900s-era Crowleyian True Will stuff, just like how in Shadowrun you can be a mage or a shaman and it all fucking works anywho. The latter is basically the dredges of old religion creeping out of the woodworks of the writer(s?) consciousness—like how in WoD you might have all sorts of supernaturals from different cultures, but at the end of the day the Christian God damned Cain and that’s the fucking truth of it.
FrankT:

The Athar are puzzling because at the core their position is that they want to kick the “Gods” out. That's all well and good, but gods are not allowed in Sigil anyway. I could totally see these guys as a thing to be in, for example, not Sigil, but as a Sigil faction they seem to have lost the plot. The opening fiction shows them doing a pretty decent sales pitch on a cleric who works for a god (that they naturally do not approve of), but I still don't know what they are campaigning for. It's like they are marching for Women's Suffrage in 21st century America or something – the basic fight is already over and done with. They are a one issue political party, and their single issue has already been checked off as an edict by the Lady of Pain.
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Having already won, you'd think that they would either disband or take up some new causes. Like how the National American Women's Suffrage Association became the League of Women Voters and became a political advocacy organization that espouses various progressive ideas on a number of topics. And notably doesn't continue to hold marches demanding that Women's Suffrage be instituted.
AncientH:

The truth to the Athar is that without the gods themselves to fight – and the Athar would promptly get their asses kicked by the actual powers, so it’s a good thing they’re in Sigil where the gods can’t/won’t go – they’re basically reduced to extremely militant agnostic Jehovah’s Witnesses, right down to the fucking pamphleteering. (Which suggests that there might be an Athar Jack Chick, which would be hilarious and wrong.) The weird thing about this section is that it doesn’t actually go on a strong anti-religion bent, of which we have thousands of examples here and now; I don’t think you could write this section today without at least a side reference to clerics of Elf God #3 being caught in a scandal molesting the choirboys or something, and it completely leaves out the idea that a religion might not be a bureaucracy with tithes and things—I’d have to check back at the old AD&D rules, but I’m pretty sure at least some of the divine spellcasters in AD&D aren’t exactly organized. A lot of the shamans, for example.

I mean, by the Nine Hells, Zeus and Thor both exist in this setting. You’ve got competing stories of creation, overlapping cosmic roles, gods getting drunk and impregnating women and horses as golden showers…none of that stuff is exactly the omnipotent, omniscient, inhumanly perfect behavior that we (generally, heavy cultural context here) associate with gods. You can make a serious argument that Powers are just over-powered mortals, they just don’t make the leap and say it.
FrankT:

The entire story of the Athar startup, while interesting, is pretty fucking pointless. It's a bunch of street fights involving people who are hundreds of years dead. The whole thing with Aoskar is also pretty hard to understand if you're reading this book cold. The basic idea is that Aoskar was a god of doors, and Sigil is the City of Doors, and he did a guerrilla marketing campaign to take over the city. This was going OK for a while, and then the Lady of Pain murdered him in the face and blew up all his temples. Now the Athar hang out in his broken temple in Sigil and his god corpse floats around on the Astral Plane. The end.

The really weird thing about this is the description of the Athar as having to meet in secret to avoid having the foot soldiers of the gods come and kick their heads in. As described in this section, Aoskar's temple getting blown up happened before the faction started. So the Lady of Pain showing that she was bigger and badder than a god and then banning gods from sticking their dick into Sigil had already happened. The Athar are campaigning for an edict to be passed that already had been passed before they were founded, and nonetheless we are expected to accept that they were somehow edgy and controversial at some point.
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AncientH:

Militant pseudo-atheism isn’t actually unattractive—think how many so-called “gods” that Captain Kirk punched in the face—but a lot of the shit in what this faction does and how it works makes no damn sense. Their leader is supposed to be a 19th-level cleric who still gets spells and gains infinite fucking spellcasting from touching a tree in the middle of the ruined temple they’re headquartered at…and they sacrifice the divine magics they steal from ruined temples to the tree. How that is totally different from worshipping and getting spells from a tree-god I’m not clear on.

Really, what these guys need is something that wasn’t invented yet: Ur-Priests. While the basic benefit of being an Athar is a small bonus to resisting divine-powered magic, what they really need is more hardcore ways to say “fuck you, you’re god’s just some damn powerful mortal, he’s not a real deity, or I couldn’t steal his shit.” I mean, D&D already established that gods need prayer to maintain themselves and grow in power, you’d think siphoning off a little of the divine mojo or maybe trying to become gods themselves would be on the map for the Athar, but it really isn’t.
FrankT:

Factol Terrence is a godless Priest. That's the top end of the Athar. Seriously, that's the big reveal: you can be a priest and get spells by worshiping a concept rather than a specific god. Considering that this was supported even in the PHB (the one and only 2nd edition “specific mythoi” Priest example was the druid), that's hardly a revelation. He's Lawful Good, and he's a 19th level caster. Not much to say here.
AncientH:

I do like that they have set this up so you have a representative, minimal-stat character from each “level” of the organization. You may need at least three sourcebooks to figure out what a 4th-level Tiefling Ranger (Athar factotum) has for actual abilities and stats and shit, but it’s pithy.

What I don’t like is the Athar’s super-special “banishment” ability. If four 4th-level Athar link hands in a circle around a servant of a Power, they can banish it as the wizard spell. Whoo! Magic dance time! Really, these guys should travel in groups and encourage hand-holding.
FrankT:

Maybe people just really want to have a dungeon crawl in the burned out ruins of the temple of Aoskar? Alternately, maybe they just had space to fill. The statting up of 4th level rangers who work as tour guides for ruined buildings is definitely because they had space to fill. The whole thing seems to be rather inconsistent with the idea that the temple blew up centuries in the past. I really don't see how people can scavenge wood from the ruins to use as building materials at this point. This bit of fluff text doesn't really match the previous lump of fluff text. I'll just highlight a bit from near the end of the section:
Factol's Manifesto wrote:Many of these ruins are haunted – so goes the chant among the locals. ’Course, the Athar only encourage such superstitions by impersonating ghosts or other undead.
I'm really not sure what the Scooby Doo plotline has to do with anything, they hop to the next subsection without going anywhere with it.
AncientH:

By design, each of these chapters is about 10 pages long—after all, they have 15 pages to go through—so it seems weird that they get through with all the basics of what an Athar is and why they go through Sigil handing out magical pamphlets for illiterate planar travelers within the first couple pages, then squeeze in the sample characters and HQ in the last six or so. You could potentially have plotlines for the Athar ranging all the way from rival pamphleteering operations (levels 1-4) to slaying demigods (levels 18-20+), but the material here is a bit thin to suggest any of that.
FrankT:

The section on playing an Athar or Defier or Lost – all of which are the same thing because factions in Planescape have like twelve different terms for themselves and their members – really underscores how much no sense this faction makes. It includes priests of concepts and Ur Priests, it includes good guys and bad guys, it has members of every alignment and character class. It has upbeat people and depressives. Blah blah blah. There's nothing holding this faction together except the general opinion that Sigil would be a better place if the Powers (that is to say: D&D gods) were kicked out of it. Which of course they were. Hundreds of years ago and before this faction was even founded. Hurrr?

Because it wasn't confusing enough to have “factotum” be the rank under “factor”, we are now told that they will sometimes refer to the rank of “factotum” in the Athars as “athaon”. Athars get one of the most intense sets of advantages and disadvantages. They get flat immunity to a bunch of Priest spells and +2 to their saves against divine magic that doesn't come from godless casters. The penalty is that priests of specific gods aren't supposed to cast spells on their behalf “except in emergencies”, whatever the fuck that means. This is a penalty that is essentially insurmountable if the party Cleric has a specific god, and is almost completely meaningless if the party Cleric is themselves an Athar (or for example: the Athar character in question). 2nd edition AD&D wasn't big on thinking things through as far as “will this writeup destroy the game if used in actual play?”
AncientH:

Finishing this chapter, I think it’s kinda nice that Dark Sun mostly doesn’t interact with Planescape, because any of the templars or elemental clerics would just scratch their heads at this whole Athar nonsense. In the context of AD&D – never mind just Sigil – the Athar’s point is pretty much already made. Yes, there are gods, and they can be petty fucktards, and they need worshippers as much as...well, they need worshippers. Except for Overgods, who are of course much more powerful than regular gods and don’t need food. I guess they writers weren’t reading a lot of Spelljammer and Forgotten Realms at the time they wrote this.

Again, I can’t help wonder why they focused on the church-as-bureaucracy, God-needs-prayer-badly part of things when they could have focused on, I dunno, sacrificing virgins to the volcano god or something really horrendous, and as with Frank I’m curious why they weren’t given a more solid set of goals. Is it just about convincing everybody not to pray? Destroying the gods? Rescuing clerics? Turning them to the One True Religion of the Unknown Mystery? I dunno.
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Post by Ancient History »

Believers of the Source
Who test themselves for godhood.
FrankT:

I have never met anyone who gave a tinker's damn about the Believers of the Source. Where the Athar have a one-issue political agenda that is highly relevant all over the multiverse except Sigil, the Godsmen don't even have that. They believe in personal reincarnation and self improvement. That's it. That's their whole philosophy. Each one of them is trying to figure out what they personally can do in order to be more godlike after the next time they reincarnate. So their Hindus, except that they don't actually have a specific religious text and are divided about whether you get to move up by being good or evil. It's not that they haven't nailed down the big question of “What is Good?”, it's that they haven't even gotten to that question because they are still debating “Is it better to be Good?”.

More fundamental than that is the fact that I actually can't tell how they are supposed to be different from the Athar. The Athar believe the Powers are nothing special and don't want to worship them, and the Believers believe that... the Powers are nothing special and don't want to worship them. What is this, I don't even.
AncientH:

Self-improvement is a rather fundamental tenet of AD&D to begin with, so a group that’s all about how you can improve yourself and maybe become a god should be a sure-fire winner…and then they stuck an elf bard-smith in charge of it:

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Well, he’s supposed to be a bard. His actual stats say he’s a 19th-level ranger. Which isn’t bad for somebody aiming at demigod-dom, but it’s not terribly inspiring either. This could have turned into an extended joke about EST and self-help seminars, but the results are much sadder: the Godsmen want to reincarnate their way into godhood, and have no fucking clue how to do it. Any 1st-level PC could clue them in to the idea of murderhoboing their way to excellence (“I killed three hundred rabbits and now I can read and have proficiency with flower arranging!”).
FrankT:

Is it really any wonder that most of this piece is inane gossip that no one gives a shit about? The entire faction is inane gossip that no one gives a shit about! Nothing really interesting happens in this chapter until we hit the mechanics for joining the faction. See, unlike the Athar, who are hated because they preach self reliance and undermine the gods and are protected by the fact that divine magic is not very effective against them, the Godsmen preach self reliance and undermine the gods so everyone loves them and priest spells are super effective against them. Because fuck you.
AncientH:

The Great Foundry is far more interesting than the Godsmen themselves; it’s a honking great interdimensional metalworking industrial complex. There’s not a lot of logistics in it—where the metal comes from, or where the utensils they get go to—but when you’re stuck in a place like Sigil there must be something thoroughly reassuring about being able to go somewhere and buy a fork instead of learning how to use eating sticks meant for dieting Illithids. At least Mr. Cavern can use it as a location for PCs to get some metalwork done, provided they’re willing to listen to lectures on self-improvement.
FrankT:

About the only thing interesting about the Believers of the Source is their big foundry. They have decided that reincarnation has a forge metaphor and so they spend a lot of time in a big room full of anvils to hammer out spoons and stuff to contemplate how the universe is changing their souls. Or something. The thing that is probably weirdest about this entire enterprise is that reincarnation is a flippin Druid spell, which is not something that you normally associate with industry of any kind. Of course, this was 2nd edition and Reincarnation was originally not allowed to Druids at all because it was part of the Necromantic sphere, which Druids don't fucking get and it required errata to fix that shit because that shit is whack. Ugh. Just thinking about the catastrofuck that was the Priest Spheres system of 2nd edition makes me want to hurl. Even the authors of the books obviously didn't use those stupid things and did what everyone else did: allow priests to prepare any spell off the Priest list and spheres be damned.

But back to the Forge metaphor. I'm really not sure where they were going with this. Having a faction base be a dojo where people are trying to hammer iron in order to become the baddest man alive certainly sounds pretty cool, but the implementation here sucks monkey ass.
AncientH:

Did I mention that their pansy-ass elf leader lives in an iron elf-palace in the middle of the fucking Ethereal Plane? With little pools and fountains and gardens and shit? There’s also a disquieting Highlander-esque vibe when this section talks about “the Source”—the ultimate unknown that all Godsmen seek to ascend to.

The thing with the Godsmen is that the basic concepts here—gain merit and you will ascend, your lives are made to forge you into something greater—are cool. Even the bloody literal-mindedness of having new guys take a turn at actually learning some forgecraft is good; I can see that as working well with a dwarf philosophy. It’s just that the way it’s put together the writers don’t want any one faction to be any more correct than the others, so the mechanics don’t reflect that, and the fluff really doesn’t reflect that. So like a lot of Planescape, you have some good ideas with a very mediocre execution.
FrankT:

The “Beliefs Change Reality” deal that Planescape had going came through in a big way for these guys. Apparently, since the Godsmen believe that they can reincarnate as gods if they do awesome enough, one of their former factols actually did that. So apparently this cult of personality thing works great. Or... maybe not. Because Godsmen still get boned for trying to worship actual gods. So presumably none of the faction members actually become clerics of the former faction member god. Leading the Believers of the Source is a way to godhood, but it's a way to shitty godhood, as the faction members then send their belief off to the next faction leader and not you. So you become a god and then instantly your church dissolves and you have to go find a new one with your new low-end god powers.

Seems like they could have done something interesting with that, but they didn't.
AncientH:

I will add one final bit, and this I do rather like: the Godsmen are all about digging up memories of their past lives, which means that aside from self-improvement they have a run at necromancy (more old-school divination than reanimation) as well. This, more than anything else, suggests that you wish these guys had been a little more literal-minded about the whole self-improvement bit—magical prostheses, personal power-ups, personal cults, necromantic grafts, dabbling in psionics—anything that would get them a leg up. Hell, you could have a mindflayer cell fooling Godsmen by claiming ceremorphosis leads to a higher form of being, and at least a few of them should be stupid enough to follow through with that.
Last edited by Ancient History on Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Red_Rob »

Two great tastes that taste great together!

Love the format, it's nice to get two perspectives on the material in a single review. Plus it's good to actually get the lowdown on the Planescape factions, I was never too clear on all their dogma.
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Post by virgil »

I think I'm the only person I know who can remember all of the names of the factions off the top of their head, let alone their dogma, where their headquarters are (there are like two I have to look up), etc.

Yes, I am a Planescape fanboy; I just don't shove it down others' throats, inundate people with the cant, or constantly speak in-character (re: Shemeska). The only thing I get defensive about is when people rage against the Lady or the scope of the setting, mainly because their arguments tend to be along the lines of "why play Shadowrun if I can't nuke the entire planet?"
Last edited by virgil on Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

I've played planescape, even spent decent time on the Planewalker 3E fan forums, but I'd still be hard-pressed to name all the factions. You've got Dustmen, Sensates... Athar, Sinkers, the crazy-doctor dudes (Bleakers?).... the regular-crazy chaos guys, call Xaositects or something.. and that's it.

Stuff outside Sigil tended to be way more interesting in my experience. Torment was a fun game, but in tabletop games Sigil usually ends up feeling kinda dull when you could go out where things are actually happening. Even in terms of the planar factions. Athar are way more interesting when they are a mysterious cult used as a puppet by Team Neutrality to bring down a church you actually care about, or get involved in a religious war and make people think twice about what they are doing.
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Post by virgil »

I've noticed that many people forgot about the Sign of One, Revolutionary League, & the Free League. The others were variously remembered, the most remembered being Harmonium, Fraternity of Order, Xaositects, & Dustmen.
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Post by schpeelah »

Well, I don't remember very well, so correct if I'm wrong: the first have no goals or reason to be an organization, the second have no philosophy outside of undermining other factions making them rather pointless assholes no matter how you look at them, and the last are not an organisation and have no real goals.

Seems rather natural they would be forgettable.

Are Mind's Eye better than Believers of the Source? I recall them boiling down to having an in-game philosophy for "we're just doing it for the XP", but at least they seemed a bit more concrete, since they have an actual idea of what they should be doing to get their ascension.
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Post by Username17 »

virgil wrote:The only thing I get defensive about is when people rage against the Lady
I will happily rage against the Lady of Pain: she was an inexcusably terrible idea that was made out of poop. The entire Sigil experience is based around a single city. It's a major trade port, but it's still just a city. And you're supposed to care about jockeying for political power in that city. But there are fifteen political parties, so the amount of political power pie left for any one of them is necessarily small.

But then, just to make the slivers and crumbs you're fighting over even smaller: supreme executive power is actually a dictatorship that you can't overthrow, put pressure on, or even meaningfully petition. And even most of the day to day tasks of running the city, the administration and public works, are in the hands of the Dabus - who are a non-elected, non-infiltratable, non-accountable bureaucracy that is supernaturally loyal to the city's immortal all-powerful tyrant. You can't even get your party loyalists to head the water department or manage the sanitation - because those are appointed positions and the positions are always appointed by and for the Lady of Pain and she draws exclusively from her cadre of supernaturally loyal mandarins that you can't ever join.

So what exactly is the point of acquiring more "power" within or for any of the factions? All powers relegated to the Lady of Pain are powers that no faction or faction member can aspire to, and she is all fucking powerful. You can't even be the Detroit local branch of the NRA, because that would imply you having some sort of power in elections. There aren't any elections. You're just the Anime Club or a Hunting Club or some shit, and you're supposed to fight the other clubs over... nothing.

If Sigil had had an actual city government with actual powers and members, it would still be pretty small potatoes in a lot of ways. Power would still be split 15 ways and you'd still be talking about a single city state. So really, the best you could hope for would be to be the Pirate Party of Prague, Czech Republic. Which is real power, but not particularly impressive real world power. But because of all the fapping to the Lady of Pain, you can't even have that. You're not even the Pirate Party; you're the city volunteer orchestra.

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Post by Maxus »

Don't the factions do various civic functions?

Police and jailers and all?

I remember thinking it was weird that this various philosophy clubs were actually in charge of parts of the Sigil adminstration
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Post by Username17 »

Maxus wrote:Don't the factions do various civic functions?

Police and jailers and all?

I remember thinking it was weird that this various philosophy clubs were actually in charge of parts of the Sigil adminstration
Yeah, some of them are NGOs that do things that the government doesn't bother to do. The Lady of Pain doesn't bother to police minor infractions or even street murders unless they involve major patricians or jeopardize commerce. So there are competing groups of vigilantes attempting to be recognized publicly as the most important unofficial for-profit police force. Yes, really.

The mercy killers and the harmonium are basically private security firms and they have dust-ups in the street to try to show people that they are the bestest rent-a-cops in town. It's really fucking pathetic actually. But we'll get to those factions a bit later.

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Post by virgil »

This is a planar campaign that uses Sigil as a safe haven and neutral territory to allow for fiends and archons to split a pizza without flattening a city block while low level players get to travel the planes. If the Lady wasn't in control of Sigil, then it would be some other force with more power than the players could realistically attain, and likely be way more proactive. By the time PCs are high enough level to control a city, then they don't care about Sigil's doors and can just go conquer the City of Brass or something if their nuts truly itch for commanding a city.

Many of the factions don't have true civic power in Sigil. The Free League, Xaositects, Revolutionary League, Bleak Cabal, Dustmen, Sensates, Believers of the Source, Transcendent Order, Doomguard, & Athar are more like guilds and/or clubs. The Free League, Doomguard, and Believers of the Source do fill a supply role as they each control the city's main supply of trade, weapons, and construction/manufacturing respectively.

If you only care about significant influence over Sigil, then you only care about the Harmonium, Mercy Killers, Fated, & the Fraternity of Order. Those are much larger pie slices than the 15 you went on about. One thing that all of the canon fails to address is who writes the laws, since the Guvners only interpret them; one would conjecture this to be a function within the Hall of Speakers, where all of the factions would get to have power (maybe each one gets a seat?).

I haven't heard of any campaign where the players even asked about waste management, let alone cared about their influence in city politics. This ties into the general flaw of shooting for politics in D&D, there are no rules or even guidelines for actually controlling more than a castle, let alone a metropolis.
Last edited by virgil on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Cynic »

I used to love the shit out of this book. I think it was the first AD&D book I actually bought. I never actually used it because I didn't know anyone who played planescape until I met Virgil and then it was all 3x.
--

The factions did have some vague purposes.

THe mercykillers were prison-guards or torturers or something.
The signers (sign of one) were apparently the legislature. I don't know what they legislated.
The Guvnors (Fraternity of Order) were judges.
The Takers (Fated, The heartless) were the tax collectors?

I think we've already established that these guys have like 3000 names.

The weirdest "factions" were the independents, xaositects and the Revolutionaries. Nobody knew what they wanted. Hell they themselves didn't. Also, Xaositects is probably one of the stupidest names out there.
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Post by Orion »

Frank's position makes no sense. You can't simultaneously claim that there is no worthwhile civic power to be had, and also rant about how the Lady of Pain doesn't actually perform even minimal state functions. Yes, she maintains the buildings, but if preventing murder isn't on the list of services you provide, I'm sorry, but you're not the state. At best you're an old-style imperialist: You make demands and publish edicts on a few arbitrary issues that concern you, and otherwise leave locals to arrange their own government. So basically, the Lady of Pain is Caesar, and the factions are fighting to be king Herod. You can call that lame if you want, but it's definitely not the case that there is no available civic power.

Or to use another metaphor, it's like Shadowrun. The Lady of Pain's entire organization is made of Dabus, so you have no hope of ever joining her regime. This is basically like being SINless: you're just categorically disqualified from holding rank in the nominal state government. But since there are huge amounts of behaviors and territories they don't actually bother to govern, you can totally just form your own state in the SINless community to handle SINless business.
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Post by virgil »

@Orion: Yes, much more eloquently put than I could.
@Cynic: They never went into the detail on how the legislation worked, but hinted that it was done in the Hall of Speakers, which was nominally under the control of the Sign of One.

The Independents did serve a purpose; the faction for people who wanted to do their jobs without having to care about politics, and have a good excuse to slam doors in the face of faction recruiters.

The Revolutionaries did largely come off as a joke, essentially serving the role of spies and saboteurs without having to bother with any actual goal other than disrupting the status quo.

I actually like the Xaositect's name, as it ties into the spelling for the gate-town Xaos.
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Post by Ancient History »

If you're going to use a Shadowrun metaphor, then the Lady of Pain is like and old-school Great Dragon or immortal elf: plot immune, by MC-fiat, able to pull off the impossible just because. Her presence assures the existence of Sigil free from any given power (or Power, if you prefer, since she can murderize gods), but at the same time it makes any effort to become a power in the setting relatively pointless, because if you grow too big for your britches the plot-hammer falls and shatters your little dreams.

This is a major distinction from other interdimensional city settings, where usually at best there is a highly flawed and often-overloaded city government, but the city itself is too wide and varied to ever actually be ruled by anybody. In a free-for-all, cream and crap can float to the top based on their own merits and the hidden tides of politics and personal power; but in Sigil it's a bit like being the biggest ant in the farm - and guess who's got the magnifying glass?
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Post by hyzmarca »

virgil wrote:This is a planar campaign that uses Sigil as a safe haven and neutral territory to allow for fiends and archons to split a pizza without flattening a city block while low level players get to travel the planes. If the Lady wasn't in control of Sigil, then it would be some other force with more power than the players could realistically attain, and likely be way more proactive.
That's not necessarily true. Sigil's neutrality could, for example, but a fundamental part of its nature such that Fiends and Archons literally cannot throw down there as the very laws of physics prevent them from doing so.
Likewise, it could be control entirely by the factions, who might be pawns or intermediaries of greater powers, but that wouldn't matter because it would be impossible for those powers to personally show up and throw down.

In such a set-up, Sigil would still be a place where Archons and Fiends split a pizza, but also a place where they indirectly dabble in mortal political machinations.

Likewise, you could just make the Factions collectively powerful enough to fuck over gods, because mortal belief shapes reality on the planes and in Sigil. Thus the factions have a detente where open warfare invites invasion by the gods, so they're limited to quiet backroom skulduggery between each other while publicly showing a united front.

There are plenty of ways to do Sigil without invincible fuck-you NPCs.

Personally, I prefer the version of the Lady who is really just six giant squirrels with a headdress, a robe, and a ring of levitation and illusions.
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Post by Niles »

virgil wrote: to allow for fiends and archons to split a pizza
If your setting is supposed to be about the importance of alignment and philosophy you need to not have shit like this in it.
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Post by Orion »

Ancient,

I don't understand why you view this as a problem. Yes, the setting is structured so that you can't get "too big for your britches"--that is to say there is a ceiling on the power you can achieve. But to say as Frank does and you appear to(?) that having any power cap at all necessarily means your power is trivial. It's part of a general insistence that things in RPG-land shouldn't be capped that I have never understood. It seems to me that power should be evaluated not comparison, but rather in terms of what you can do with it and how that feels. It sounds like you can get enough power in Sigil to prevent or incite widespread murder and slavery, so I don't see why that wouldn't feel significant.
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Post by Username17 »

Orion wrote:Ancient,

I don't understand why you view this as a problem. Yes, the setting is structured so that you can't get "too big for your britches"--that is to say there is a ceiling on the power you can achieve. But to say as Frank does and you appear to(?) that having any power cap at all necessarily means your power is trivial. It's part of a general insistence that things in RPG-land shouldn't be capped that I have never understood. It seems to me that power should be evaluated not comparison, but rather in terms of what you can do with it and how that feels. It sounds like you can get enough power in Sigil to prevent or incite widespread murder and slavery, so I don't see why that wouldn't feel significant.
Your "power cap" for this purpose is "leader of a bullshit NGO branch in a medium sized city". That is a very low power cap for a game that otherwise allows you to save, conquer, and destroy planets and gods.

The whole "faction conflict" scene is supposed to be front and center for the whole Planescape deal. Fuck, more than one of these Factols are 19th level characters. And yet, nothing you can do involving these assholes can possibly amount to more than you getting control of a single city's morgue. There are epic level badasses you have to go against to wrest control of a faction, and when you actually do it all you get to do is decide whether the incinerator runs on Wednesdays or Thursdays.

With the amount of buildup that the Factions get in the setting, you'd think that they had anything at all to do with the endgame. But they don't. Once you get to 9th level, you are entitled to a county and a bevy of followers of your own just by leaving town and declaring yourself the local lord, and that's as much as you would get for hanging on in town for another ten fucking levels so that you could fight it out with your faction head. And this being 2nd edition AD&D, once you have a county of your own you have supreme executive power and you can expand it yourself.

Fundamentally, high level characters can just have the kind of temporal power that Sigil cockteases you with. It's not even a big deal. Flipping out about how the people who cut the grass are untouchable badasses backed up by a god killing monstrosity is just pointless. If the players want to stop people from cutting the grass in their neighborhood, this shouldn't be an epic adventure. And it sure as fuck shouldn't train epic mobs on you to even try.

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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Some of the Factions have headquarters on other planes, right? Like the Anarchist dudes in Carceri. Do they have any impressive capabilities there? Or do the resident fiends just laugh at them if they try an edict outside of their own club rooms?
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Post by Ancient History »

Orion,

Plot immune characters get my britches a bit. Always have. It's not a problem that there are characters more powerful than you will ever be - the President of any given country has more power than you or I ever will - but I don't care for entities that exist with disregard to the established rules and material of the setting when you could fulfill their same function within the rules of the setting. I've had this argument elsewhere, but I just find it lazy writing.

Bleak Cabal
Who find no sense in the Universe.

Image
AncientH:

The Bleak Cabal is not quite an effort to appeal to the teenage goth crowd; there’s an element of severe pragmatic rationalism to the whole business that many a nerd can identify with, combined with the whole “you don’t understand!” angst that sold a million size-too-small shirts at Hot Topic. I know I’m supposed to be the nostalgic one of this pair, but even I get a little tired of weak philosophies.
FrankT:

Members of the Bleak Cabal are called Bleakers and Madmen. They have a really simplistic existential dilemma to present. Nothing matters and the world is full of suffering. Therefore you can either do something about it or not, and that choice doesn't matter either. Now personally, I think that is self evidently true, and it doesn't bother me. But whoever wrote this faction in the first place obviously lacked the mental fortitude to finish reading No Exit. For some reason, simple existentialism is portrayed as a brain breaking abyss that drives people into endless melancholy. Bleakers do good works, but they have to roll a d20 every day or get the sadz and lie around in bed all day.

Image

In this book, the Bleakers are portrayed as much more sympathetic, doing good works and not giving an actual shit about vanity or wealth or other petty crap. Still, the damage has totally been done. As Ancient History noted earlier: whoever wrote the original faction writeups decided to dump all the liberal philosophies into Chaotic Evil dimensions. I don't know if that was a fuck you to the players, a fuck you to liberals, or a cunning ploy to try to equal out faction membership by forcing players to choose between doing good works and having “Good” written on their character sheet. But for whatever reason, if you want to be an existentialist who feeds the poor and only adventures because they think it's the right thing to do... then you get to have your chapterhouse in fucking Pandemonium, have to chill out with Giant Rape Frogs and Demons, and also have to spend a random day every three weeks cutting yourself in bed while listening to The Cure. Because the original authors had already written all that shit into the faction and fuck you. Hippie.
AncientH:

The Bleak Cabal’s an ancient faction; it seems there’s always been a need to repudiate the tenets of others.
These guys are, not to put too much of a point on it, Han Solo. Even in a multiverse with magic, psionics, et al. they find it hard to believe in some vast invisible Force guiding things along. That’s not a hard line to take even in a fantasy multiverse; when you have conflicting “truths” being bandied about every day from hundreds of different planes and dimensions, you can see that a lot of it is bullshit—again, a reflection of the real world. The main difference between these guys and the Athar is that they’re not specifically against deities, though I think that’s splitting hairs a bit; well that and the Athar worship the Not-God-Tree of Reverse Psychology.
FrankT:

Allow me to say that it is needlessly confusing that a faction who are called the “Bleak Cabal” and “The Madmen” are different from the people who espouse Entropy and the people who espouse Chaos. The writeup here continues to be offensive. Apparently nihilists can't run things, and large groups of people who don't believe in a higher power inevitably drive each other insane. I don't even know how that's supposed to work.

The thing is that even though they keep dissing on how “crazy” and “disorganized” these people are, the Bleak Cabal are still the closest thing that comes to an actual government that the city seems to have. They provide healthcare, unemployment insurance, orphanages, and food security. They are the actual welfare state, which is why they are not allowed to be Lawful. I know that Law and Chaos mean fuckall at the best of times, but this is pretty intensely off the reservation. This needs to be said a couple of times: The Bleak Cabal run all the services that the city has and are busily constructing more and they are not allowed to be Lawful. I just don't even know what the hell the AD&D authors thought Law and Chaos were supposed to mean if nation building doesn't count as Law.
AncientH:

When Frank says “crazy,” he means literally: members of the Bleak Cabal are in danger of getting an infectious mental illness called “The Grim Retreat”—presumably, their brains just decide they’ve had enough of this bullshit multiverse and decide to go home. I think this is part of the cognitive dissonance of a group of people that refuse to believe in the Invisible Hand of the Market in a world where you have literal gods and higher Powers supposedly devoted to keeping the natural and unnatural worlds going. Presumably these guys would really latch on to natural philosophy or science if Newtonian physics could ever get past wizards pulling fireballs out of their asses, but I don’t think the discovery of evolution and quantum physics would really improve their disposition much.

You can actually have some fun with the Bleaker concept, but it generally amounts to interesting characters having interesting awakenings about themselves and their circumstances, like a devil that says “Y’know, why the fuck do I want to collect souls and fight the tanari’i all the time?” We’re not talking serious deep psychology here, just look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs—a poor devil worn down by the Blood War takes stock and decides to get self-actualized. That’s a good NPC right there.

As for the charity aspect of the Bleakers, the only bizarreness is why the author thinks this is weird. If there is no fate—no destiny—no omniscient, omnipotent gods or spirits that have a cosmic plan and are going to set things right—then it’s down to everybody to make the best of it. Life may be full of suffering or misery, but it doesn’t have to be a zero sum game. Incidentally, I think my favorite character in this section is the 0-level, insane tiefling cook that ladles out at a Bleaker-run soup kitchen.
FrankT:

The only interesting thing about the Factol of the Bleakers is that he is totally uninteresting. He's just an 8th level halforc who doesn't even use magic equipment. This being 2nd edition, he's not even entitled to his own followers. The Bleakers are apparently a forward looking democracy, and the leaders are pretty much wholly replaceable.

Image

The Gatehouse is more interesting. It is a massive fortress that was long ago used to keep out something so big that it couldn't fit through a portcullis whose bars are fifteen feet apart. Then it was used as a prison to quarantine the sick. And now it is the place from which social services are organized throughout the city. So by any sane modern standards, this is the actual government and both the Lady of Pain and all the other factions are just fucking around. But possibly having been written at the tail end of the Reagan era, these guys are still Chaotic Evil and incapable of running anything. Except the food security for the city and public healthcare, which they run.
AncientH:

The Gatehouse is the most realistic, scary, and sad part of the whole book so far—one part homeless shelter, orphanage, and mental asylum, and there isn’t enough room for everybody. Parents line up down the street to give away the children they can no longer afford to care for. That’s fucked up.
The atmosphere outside the asylum is often that of a funeral circus …
And just so there is no doubt that the guy or gal writing this literally intends for this to be the Grim Dark Future of the welfare state, the Bleak Cabal artists are called “Bleakniks.” Man, somebody had a rough time during the 60s and 70s if that shit is coming out in ’95.

One thing about the Bleaker asylum, which includes an “Irretrievably Insane” wing, is that it provides a great setting for porting over Lovecraftian/Call of Cthulhu material. Replace Miskatonic Sanatorium with the Gatehouse, make the “doctor” a tiefling cleric, and you’re halfway there.
FrankT:

Yeah, the thing where the big game mechanical draw of being a Bleaker is that you learn bonus high level Wizard spells that fucking kill people is a bit off. Upon getting to 5th level as, for example, a ranger, you learn a 4th level Wizard spell. It's a pretty good 4th level Wizard spell (2d4 targets, save or lose), but you wouldn't actually be able to cast it even if you are a Wizard because you are fifth level. I don't even understand why someone thought that was a good idea to write down.

The manic depression mechanics are supposed to be hilarious, but actually they are just annoying. One day in twenty you require the other players to talk you into actually going on the adventure. There's also a 1 in 400 chance when this happens that your character will “go crazy” and have to be sent to the insane asylum and miss out on adventures for a poorly explained period of time. That is so rare that it probably won't ever happen during the course of the game. And if it does happen, the game is probably completely derailed at that point. Basically, the mechanics here are a war crime. No one put even the slightest thought into the fact that these were mechanics for a game that people were supposed to actually play.
AncientH:

The really big mechanical draw of being a Bleaker is that since they’re already insane you’re immune to a bunch of spells and psionic effects that mimic insanity, and even absorb it in others…oh god, they’re depressed liberal hippie Malkavians.
Playing a character who’s a member of the Bleak Cabal is likely to pose a challenge for many players - and it’s equally likely that the faction’s too grim to interest many players.
This guy seriously underestimates the appeal of a group that doesn’t have to deal with this fate crap. Honestly, the Bleakers are Neo from The Matrix—surrounded by fanatics living in a shithole and eating grey goop while somebody prattles on about prophecies and how we’re all fucked. That said, the suggested ways for PCs to get started with the Bleak Cabal are not likely to interest players—most people consider helping out at a real soup kitchen as community service, so why they’d voluntarily roleplay that during the game is a question the writer never asked themselves.

(Although I would totally award any player that volunteered at a soup kitchen, food bank, or homeless shelter with bonus XP for their character, and maybe buy them a beer.)
Of course , all of this assumes that a Bleaker’s made his daily saving throw against the futility of existence. As stated in A Player’s Guide to the Planes in the PLANESCAPE Campaign Setting boxed set, a Bleaker must roll ld20 at the start of each game day. A result of 20 means the sod‘s thrown into a fit of melancholia, overcome by the pointlessness of life. He won’t take any actions unless his comrades can provide a convincing philosophical argument as to why be should bother.
I think they might be hoping this would encourage PC bards, but I’m thinking PC drill sergeants and blanket parties. “Okay, if you do not get off your ass this fucking minute and get in the godsdamned dungeon, I’m going to use my Great Club to tee off with your testicles!” Fuck, that would motivate me!
Bleakers can be of any alignment save lawful.
…because I guess they can be law-abiding, but if you don’t believe in the spirit and principles of the law, you getcher ass down the road to the neutral and chaotic side of the cosmic chessboard.
Intelligent characters - notably wizards, priests, bards, and other classes with scholarly inclinations – are particularly attracted to the Bleak Cabal, with its emphasis on the mental over the physical.
I’d make a trust here about how conservatives don’t like that liberals tend to be well educated, but honestly this makes me sad. Conan the Barbarian would have been a fucking Bleaker.
FrankT:

Gotta say, I was pretty disappointed with the big reveal that the Bleak Cabal's portal network that connected their soup kitchens was actually really just used for the advanced aid distribution logistics that they are supposedly too non-believing and crazy to be able to do. It's almost enough to make me glad they didn't bother doing a big reveal on the reason for the Gatehouse being so fortified in the first place or the lost previous factols or any of that.
AncientH:

The big thing with the Bleak Cabal is that there is practically little to no reason for anybody to hate these guys. They’re basically a charitable organization in the middle of the multiverse’s biggest ghetto, they’re not out to take over the city or get you to worship their god above all others or anything like that—I mean, I guess the evil guys should hate them because they take in orphans and feed the homeless and care for the sick and dying, but by definition you can’t be a paladin and join the Bleak Cabal, so what the hell heroes?
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

I always saw the Bleak Cabal as basically like the Independents, but with most of the jerkiness filed off. They are more appealing than most of the other factions. Less likely to create interesting storylines than the sensates or dustmen, but also much less likely push the PCs into face-stabbing mode when they start ranting.
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Post by virgil »

hyzmarca wrote:That's not necessarily true. Sigil's neutrality could, for example, but a fundamental part of its nature such that Fiends and Archons literally cannot throw down there as the very laws of physics prevent them from doing so.
In practice, that's how it works, and some many Planescape fans argue that the Lady exists solely because of a need for anthropomorphic forces of nature. But somehow the moment you give gravity a face, it's an NPC that messes up people's day.

I only have issues with plot-immune characters the way Ancient does when they actually do stuff. Shadowrun's great dragons and immortal elves are a lot more approachable, and have goals they proactively work toward; giving an obvious in for their use in an adventure. The Lady, she just exists and only pulls out the magnifying glass if you decide to take it from her. Not even any magnifying glass, just hers, hence the "why bother if I can't personally fvck with the setting on a fundamental level" vibe I get from most arguments. These are the same arguments that make some rail against the Blood War because their party will never stop it, yet never really complain about an inability to take over Mount Celestia by climbing to the top and punching everyone into submission, or replacing Asmodeus as the Lord of the Ninth. She's a passive backdrop for the Cage, and acts as thematic glue for Planescape as a setting rather than just a list of dimensions to roam through. Obviously a number of people found the imagery evocative.

When it comes to power in general, back in 2E there wasn't a diplomacy skill. Some factols were epic level, while others were commoners. Your ability to kill was orthogonal to your ability to get political power in Sigil, and didn't require an epic quest to take Rowan Darkwood's position.
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Post by hyzmarca »

And now I want to have a Bleaker soup-kitchen staffed by Vrocks, Bebiliths, and Balors in a game.
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