Scaling Feats

[Cheiromancer]

Thanks for the link! This board has some of the best theory I have ever read. For ease of reference I'll repost the relevant passage:

Polar Ray is an insult to god and man. It's not a long legacy, it was introduced in 3.5 and before that it was merely one of several options for the much lower level Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. And of course, in Pathfinder, that would have to be called Freezing Sphere for copyright reasons, but that is neither here nor there.

The point however, is that in the conversion from AD&D to 3e D&D, the amount of hit points and energy resistance that creatures have has increased literally exponentially. And damage output from Evocations has not kept up in the slightest. And while we could plausibly attempt to push the envelope and pump up damage output to match, that would only be an arms race that no one would win.

Evocations in 3rd edition rules are primarily spells which serve to devastate low level opposition or to slowly but surely chip away at the defenses of opponents that pose reasonable threats. These are sometimes valid tactics, but they are not valid tactics to use one's highest level spells to accomplish. It takes a lot of magic missiles to bring down a Shadow, meaning that there is frankly no way that any Wizard is going to have enough spell slots to dedicate to doing that to make it a viable way to eventually beat such an opponent.

So here's the solution: reduce the spell level of these underperforming evocation spells. Since they scale in damage to your level, nothing actually bad happens if you get these spells early. Even a dozen or more levels early is perfectly fine because the damage scales to something level appropriate at low level. A polar ray cast by a 1st level character does just 1d6 of damage - half the damage that the same character could achieve by purchasing a vial of alchemist frost and throwing it at a target (same to-hit roll as well at any kind of close range).

So here's what the Evocation list should look like:

Evocation Cantrips

* Burning Hands
* Dancing Lights
* Light
* Magic Missile
* Shocking Grasp


Evocation 1st Level Spells

* Fireball
* Floating Disk
* Gust of Wind
* Lightning Bolt
* Polar Ray
* Sending


Evocation 2nd Level Spells

* Chain Lightning
* Cone of Cold
* Continual Flame
* Darkness
* Daylight
* Flaming Sphere (this spell badly needs to be better than it is, but that's another subject)
* Scorching Ray
* Shatter


Evocation 3rd Level Spells

* Delayed Blast Fireball
* Ice Storm
* Shout
* Tiny Hut
* Wall of Fire
* Wind Wall


Evocation 4th Level Spells

* Fire Shield
* Interposing Hand
* Resilient Sphere
* Wall of Ice

Evocation 5th Level Spells

* Forceful Hand
* Freezing Sphere
* Mage Sword
* Sunburst
* Wall of Force


Evocation 6th Level Spells

* Contingency
* Grasping Hand
* Shout, Greater


Evocation 7th Level Spells

* Clenched Fist
* Force Cage
* Prismatic Spray



Evocation 8th Level Spells

* Crushing Hand
* Meteor Swarm
* Telekinetic Sphere


Evocation 9th Level Spells

* 9th level Spells must be written for this discipline. Seriously, timestop? Shapechange? Wail of the Banshee? Astral Projection? Shades? Weird? Most disciplines have two game defining, god-fighting spells to choose from at 9th level. Evocation hasn't been given anything remotely decent for their top tier, so new, mountain leveling spells must be written for Evokers to have.

There. It's pretty much completely backwards compatible, but nonetheless puts Evokers in at being able to do something legitimately valuable - Killing Fools.

And no, having unlimited magic missiles or shocking grasps is not ungamebalanced at 1st level, or any level. Magic Missile tops out in damage at level 9, when it does 17.5 damage against any opponent who doesn't have concealment, cover, or spell resistance. But at level 9, a Rogue is literally inflicting 17.5 points of sneak attack damage with every single attack. And that's not total damage for the round, that's just the extra damage from a sneak attack. He still gets to do his weapon damage, and make his other attacks for that round. Shocking Grasp is very likely to hit, and it does a d8+1 damage. A Longsword in the hands of a Fighter is also very likely to hit and does a d8+4. While the shocking grasp is quite likely to have a better chance of hitting an orc warrior than the longsword is, it is also much more likely to do insufficient damage to drop the orc. Indeed, the Orc Warrior out of the SRD is more likely to drop in one attack from the 1st level Fighter than he from the 1st level Wizard - even factoring in the discrepancy in hit chances.

And no, casting fireballs at 1st level isn't unbalanced either. At 1st level it only does a d6 of fire damage, it's barely worth doing against many opponents. It certainly isn't putting color spray out of a job.

There wasn't any mention in that thread about dice caps. A 1st level spell normally caps out at 5d6, a 2nd or 3rd at 10d6, and so on. I presume that still holds or the "Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions" would not be a thing (specifically the "uncapped magic" class ability).

I was also reading a long thread about spheres and feats. Making a scaling feat equal to (or a little greater than) a sphere would be one way of balancing them. You only have 5 abilities rather than 9 spells, but per encounter abilities would count double, and at wills would be triple their standard value.

[Maxus]

The Seeker was sort of a gag--they get spells which work the way they -used- to work.

Certainly uncapping damage for every spell ever isn't a bad thing.

I was also thinking about how evocation could do more damage. I suppose you could guarantee spell level * caster level damage for a spell, on top of whatever die rolls...

[Red_Rob]

The first benefit of Armoured Combat has a really wonky mechanic.

I prefer to think of it as "nonstandard"

Using up an AoO for something that is not an attack seems odd. And it sounds like it is used up even if the opponent's BAB is too high.

I don't see this as a problem. The Samurai and Soulborn can use Attacks of Opportunity to make dispel checks, and they aren't guaranteed to succeed either.

The recharge time makes it effectively a once/encounter mechanic, which strikes me as strange given that it uses up a resource (AoO's) that regenerates every round. Altogether it seems unintuitive and awkward.

Plenty of resources have use limits that are different to their regeneration schedule. Once per fight you get to cancel an AOO against you by using one of yours - that seems pretty simple and intuitive to me. When we tested the feat for our home campaign it was just "use an AOO to cancel an AOO", but that turned out to allow people with Hordebreaker and Whirlwind to cut through groups of enemies with impunity.

The third (+6) benefit... it is easier to trip someone whose armour is masterwork?

The intention was that bigger, bulkier armor makes you harder to affect. I guess this does have some funky interactions with things that affect ACP, such as masterwork and the Jester's Low Comedy ability. Changing it to "base ACP for your armor type" should avoid these issues.

Born of Thunder

There seems to be an awful lot of goodness crammed into this feat. A 1/encounter lightning bolt at the same level a sorcerer gets it. A save or suck rider to any electricity attack - which I presume could be with a weapon as well as with the lightning bolt. And finally, the capstone is immunity to two energy types and a 7th level spell.

Are there any kind of standard guidelines for how much a scaling feat can do? How do you guard against power-creep? I mean, given the restrictions on how many different benefits a magic item can give you, it seems odd that a feat can give you five or six different things.

If you actually look at the things you have listed, most of them aren't that great. At level 6 your lightning bolt does 6D6 damage - that's an average of 21, with a save for half. That's nothing to write home about as a 1/encounter ability. The stun is more relevant, however a Tome melee character should probably have a save-or-suck effect on hit already by level 11. I really should have specified that each opponent can only be forced to make one save a turn, to bring it in line with other save-or-suck effects.

The "capstone" really shouldn't get you excited. Sonic immunity is pretty niche and Control Weather is only useful in certain circumstances. If it gave out Limited Wish or Force cage that would be different, but honestly the feat in general is a collection of sometimes useful abilities that are worth the space on your character sheet but might not get used every session.

On a side note I need to update these to split off a bunch of them like Surgo suggested. I'll add the amendments to this feat when I reorganise things.

[Cheiromancer]

use an AOO to cancel an AOO

It makes sense when you put it like that. And it makes sense flavor wise, too. After all, if your reflexes are quick enough to take advantage of an enemy's mistake, you should also be quick enough to recover from a mistake of your own. Unless your enemy is much better than you at taking advantage of a momentary opportunity.

Was it too strong at 1/round that it was better to make it (effectively) 1/encounter?

I am starting to see the pattern in Born of Thunder. Energy Immunity is a 7th level wizard spell, which lasts all day. The capstone gives it twice in addition to the Control Weather 1/day. If three (admittedly mediocre) spells is appropriate at level 16 (when 8th level spells are being thrown around) it can be extrapolated that three fourth or fifth level spells are appropriate for BAB +11, three 2nd or third level spells at BAB +6, and some combination of 1st level spells at 1st level. Or maneuvers or whatever - as long as they pretty low-powered for their level.

Also, Child of the Heavens has a capstone that gives basic access to a non-fiendish sphere. So that calibrates the capstone relative to spheres. Given the way access to a sphere works, the relative power of per round, per encounter and per day effects should be at a ratio of 3:2:1. Instead of a capstone giving three different 7th level spells (1/day) each, it might give a (roughly 7th level) effect available every round.

Looked at that way, it all makes sense. The BAB +11 ability of Born of Thunder should correspond to a 4th level spell usable each round. A fourth level spell that allows you to stun someone (or several someones) - that seems reasonable. As for BAB +6, well, Lightning Bolt is not a very good 3rd level spell - Frank has argued that it is really a 1st level spell. But if you take damage caps and saving throws into account, maybe it is better than that. Having it per minute instead of per round is actually conservative. The BAB +1 and +0 effects are all appropriate to 1st level spells (or their equivalent) so that seems fine, too.

Alright. I'll need to think about it some more, but it is starting to make sense.

***

About those metamagic feats. I had read the Tomes as being a way of buffing melee types and skill users to bring them up closer to the level of wizards. Wizards, in turn, were to be subjected to mild nerfs. Thus wish, polymorph, planar binding etc. were rewritten a bit. It seems to me, initially at least, that making better metamagic feats is contrary to this general project.

And these metamagic feats are better than before. As far as I can tell, the revised metamagic feats do not require that the spells use up higher level spell-slots. So while the cost of the old metamagic feats was a feat slot plus a high level spell slot, the cost of the new metamagic feats is just the feat slot. Many of the new feats also combine the effect of old metamagic feats into one. So the result is more benefit at less cost. So there must be something I am not seeing.

Maybe it's this? It seems that wizards are broken because of their best abilities; the strongest feats, spells and combos. Weak spells or feats don't affect the balance at all. And so if you make the weaker abilities better the wizard doesn't get any more broken (unless you introduce new brokenness, of course). You are raising the floor, not the ceiling. In fact, by making the non-broken options more attractive, the wizard has a viable alternative to chained ice assassin Aleaxes (or whatever). I conjecture that this the rationale behind the new metamagic feats.

Am I on the right track here? If I am, then particular care has to be taken with the feats that lead to brokenness. Whatever that may be.

[Red_Rob]

I am starting to see the pattern in Born of Thunder. Energy Immunity is a 7th level wizard spell, which lasts all day. The capstone gives it twice in addition to the Control Weather 1/day. If three (admittedly mediocre) spells is appropriate at level 16 (when 8th level spells are being thrown around) it can be extrapolated that three fourth or fifth level spells are appropriate for BAB +11, three 2nd or third level spells at BAB +6, and some combination of 1st level spells at 1st level. Or maneuvers or whatever - as long as they pretty low-powered for their level.

While it would be nice if things broke down this neatly, in reality it is really more about effects than spell levels. Spells vary wildly in power within a level, or even with different applications of the same spell. While you can use spell levels as a guide, throwing out at-will Cone of Cold or Waves of Fatigue is much less game-breaking than at-will Solid Fog or Charm Monster.

Your real guideline for what abilities and stats are reasonable should be what encounters and enemies a character can expect to face at that level. At-will flight at level 1 breaks the game because 90% of enemies don't have ranged attacks or flight themselves, so you auto-win a huge chunk of encounters. At level 10 that problem is almost reversed - so many enemies have long range or high movement that not having some kind of movement ability is a major disadvantage.

Maybe it's this? It seems that wizards are broken because of their best abilities; the strongest feats, spells and combos. Weak spells or feats don't affect the balance at all. And so if you make the weaker abilities better the wizard doesn't get any more broken (unless you introduce new brokenness, of course). You are raising the floor, not the ceiling. In fact, by making the non-broken options more attractive, the wizard has a viable alternative to chained ice assassin Aleaxes (or whatever). I conjecture that this the rationale behind the new metamagic feats.

Am I on the right track here? If I am, then particular care has to be taken with the feats that lead to brokenness. Whatever that may be.

Pretty much this. As long as feats for Wizards add more flavourful abilities or buff weaker options like blasting or summoning, they shouldn't increase the caster's overall power level by much. These feats may not increase the level of spell slot used, however they can only be used on lower level spells to compensate - which means most of the time a caster is choosing between a higher level effect or a lower level effect with a rider. This means they don't get a straight power up - just more juice out of their lower level spells and less incentive to rest after every fight.

[Draculmaulkee]

Was the feat Toxic Magic meant to apply to spells, or only Spell-like and Supernatural abilities?

[Red_Rob]

All the Innate Ability feats are designed to only work on Supernatural and Spell-Like abilities. Casters already get enough goodies designed for them, this lets the Warlocks and Stormlords get in on the action too

[Draculmaulkee]

Is Infernal Taint meant to replace Product of Infernal Dalliance? Same question for Innate Invisibility and Fiendish Invisibility.
Also you mention a feat named Fiend Blooded in the 2nd paragraph of your first post which doesn't appear anywhere else.

[Draculmaulkee]

Are Divine Metamagic and other metamagic cost reducers intended to be compatible with your/Kaelik's Metamagic Level system (i.e. do clerics no longer get Persisted Divine Power at 7th level)?

[...You Lost Me]

The AlphaNerd meta magic system is supposed to be a replacement for the current system so I'm fairly certain the intent is not to have reducers be a thing.

[Draculmaulkee]

I didn't think so either. I will miss Full BAB clerics.

[Red_Rob]

Yeah, reducers were a kludge introduced because metamagic as presented in the base game just wasn't worth it. The Alphanerd system makes Metamagic a straight boost to your less powerful spells, so it's more worthwhile whilst being less abuseable.

If you still really want Divine Power on your Cleric, at level 13 you can Persist it one level and fill all your level 4 slots with it. Not quite all day, but you should have it in each encounter that matters.

[Wiseman]

Bloodlust [Combat]
Demons do not experience calm. They may be frantic things of twitching lust or fear. They may be mad calculating engines of blasphemous sorcery or patient webspinners preparing their aeon-spanning traps, but they are never calm and serene – except in the moment of the kill. Except in the dance of slaughter, when the hot blood rains down and the demon exults, knowing that it is the stronger today.
It is never a good day to die in Hell, but it is always a good day to kill.
Benefits:This is a combat feat that scales with your BAB.
+0:
+1: You are under a permanent (Ex) Sadism effect though it only triggers when you damage a sapient creature in melee.
+6: Whenever you kill a sapient creature in melee you may cure yourself of 1 condition currently affecting you (for example: blindness, deafness, slow ect.)
+11: Whenever you damage any creature in melee you heal half of the damage inflicted.
+16:

Not sure of a level 16 effect and BAB 0 effect.

[Kaelik]

Piercing Throw:

You throw things really hard.

+1: You can use Strength instead of Dexterity for the attack bonus of your thrown weapons.
+6: When you make a thrown attack against an enemy, it acts as a Line Attack for the first 30ft, piercing any enemies and attacking any enemies in the line with the same attack roll. After 30ft it becomes a regular attack and stops at the next enemy.
+11: Your thrown Attacks can ignore any hardness, do full damage to objects, and if they hit an object and do half as much damage as needed to break that object, they can make a hole in it and continue on the other side.
+16: When you make an attack roll with a throwing object that attacks in a line, it also moves all creatures hit to the end of the Line in addition to hitting them.