The Gaming Den

Rules in competitive games are held to a much higher standard than rules in a TTRPG. I'm not talking about how RPGs can have MTP, I'm talking about how common it is for RPG rules to fail to do what they say they do, fail to reward the modes of play the designers wanted, or just be too logically incoherent to function at all.

It's not like it takes a super genius to write a functional ruleset for a competitive game. There are tons of worthwhile competitive games. The problem is that RPG culture tolerates, expects, and sometimes demands shitty rules.

ModelCitizen wrote:Rules in competitive games are held to a much higher standard than rules in a TTRPG.

You need to play more competitive games and realize how much broken stuff there is out in the market . And how crazy fanboys (i.e. players of Virgin Queen, the broken sequel of one of the best CDGs ever) keep defending them nontheless - it isn't a unique phenomenon to RPGs.

However, the point isn't to say that all RPGers don't care about silly, stupid, broken rules. What I'm saying is that RPGers tend to be much more forgiving of such rules, and have a much more hawkish fanboy response to any who dare question their favorite rule set because they tie it to their co-up "fun ancedotes" as opposed to actually sitting and thinking how bad the rules actually are.

Put it another way... when I give Den-like advice to an actual competitive game designer, he'd say "Thanks for the constructive input", whereas the RPGers tend to go "But my session from ten years ago went fine! Stop saying the rules I use are bad!"

Ooh! I want to gaze into the Den's navel, too! It will be my first attempt at omphaloskeptimancy!

Here it is:

There are lots of opinions bandied about on the Den. I handle them the same way I handle political pundits... There is a horrible abuse of hyperbole, but many actually contain facts and/or humor - thus making them worth reading.

I'm grateful that the people here can tell each other to fuck off without taking it personally - I actually think that's one of the Den's strengths. I wish more people understood what a valuable skill that is.

And that's all I got.

Zinegata wrote:Its mindset is geared towards competitive play, whereas RPGs are fudamentally co-ops.

It isn't a wrong mindset mind you. There is a use to pointing out that +2 Skill Check feats totally suck and no sane person should take them if they even remotely understand the system.

That is really not what those words mean. Comparing the value of options is not a competitive perspective on anything, or else deciding what you want for breakfast tomorrow morning would be inherently adversarial, and... well, it isn't.

Let's consider a hypothetical Battlefield 4, which has four classes:
1) Shoots Explodey Things Guy
2) Shoots Things Up Close Guy
3) Shoots Things Far Away Guy
4) Naked Thumb-Twiddling Guy

Now, it really doesn't matter whether we're talking about Battlefield 4 versus, where 16 people select a class and fight another 16 people who have selected classes; or co-op, where 4 people select a class and try to complete some campaign together. In both cases, Naked Thumb-Twiddling Guy can't justify his existence. He can't kill people in VS and he can't help the team win in co-op. There is nothing competitive about the statement that option 4 is worse than option 3, or else you'd be forced into the position that solitaire is either a competitive game or it has no bad moves, which are both totally wrong.

The den does not have a competitive ideology with respect to TTRPG's. I'd say, overall, the den's ideology is that shitty options should either 1) not be shitty, 2) not be options, or 3) have giant red warning flags that tell you you're about to do something stupid if for some reason you absolutely have to have a shitty option, bu you probably shouldn't so don't do this.

You should really have chosen to frame your point in terms of balanced vs unbalanced as opposed to competitive vs co-op. That's obviously what you were getting at, and yeah you're pretty much right. Most RPGers hear people talking about balancing options and go PSH, I NEVER SAW A PROBLEM, THEREFORE THE VERY VALID ARGUMENTS YOU ARE MAKING ABOUT HOW THERE IS A PROBLEM CAN BE DISMISSED WITHOUT CONSIDERATION, AND I WILL CONTINUE NOT KNOWING THERE IS A PROBLEM BECAUSE THIS ARGUMENT LEADS TO THE IMMEDIATE DISMISSAL OF ANYTHING I HAVEN'T PERSONALLY NOTICED MYSELF, LEAVING ME IN AN INVIOLABLE ECHO CHAMBER OF ONE.

Karl Rove hates Nate Silver in a similar manner to how some folks hate the Den




MATHS

I think that it's pretty sad how the average gaming group apparently has to operate in an atmosphere of deceit and circle-jerking in order to game at all. And that certain Denners apparently think that this self-deception is supposed to be civility.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I think that it's pretty sad how the average gaming group apparently has to operate in an atmosphere of deceit and circle-jerking in order to game at all. And that certain Denners apparently think that this self-deception is supposed to be civility.

It's sad that "not insulting my friends and otherwise acting like an asshole" is considered "deceit and circle-jerking". Do you actually talk to other people like people post here on the den, complete with telling them to go suck a barrel of cocks if they dare to say they like something you do not, or do not think the pizza you all just got is as bad as you think it is?

Fuchs wrote:Do you actually talk to other people like people post here on the den, complete with telling them to go suck a barrel of cocks if they dare to say they like something you do not, or do not think the pizza you all just got is as bad as you think it is?

Well, you're talking to an ex-sailor, so the answer is yes. I did regularly take the piss out of my buddies at the table using colorful language. My buds also regularly brought food to the table I didn't like and I ended up having to bring my own or going hungry. For example, two of my buddies loved BBQ and jalopeno-pulled pork with all of the fat drippings left in even though I think it's the nastiest meat in the world. Even more than vinegar chitterlings and haggis.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:

Fuchs wrote:Do you actually talk to other people like people post here on the den, complete with telling them to go suck a barrel of cocks if they dare to say they like something you do not, or do not think the pizza you all just got is as bad as you think it is?

Well, you're talking to an ex-sailor, so the answer is yes. I did regularly take the piss out of my buddies at the table using colorful language. My buds also regularly brought food to the table I didn't like and I ended up having to bring my own or going hungry. For example, two of my buddies loved BBQ and jalopeno-pulled pork with all of the fat drippings left in even though I think it's the nastiest meat in the world. Even more than vinegar chitterlings and haggis.

If you think everyone acts like former sailors, then you're living in fantasy land. Do you think you're living in a deceitful atmosphere just beause you don't call your black friends racist names? Even if you are joking around almost every group has a few lines that are not crossed.

Wait, so pointing out that monks are garbage or that MM-dive polymorph is busted is now the equivalent to using racial slurs?

What in the actual fuck?

John Magnum wrote:Wait, so pointing out that monks are garbage or that MM-dive polymorph is busted is now the equivalent to using racial slurs?

What in the actual fuck?

No. But pointing those out in the style common here - "go suck a barrel of cosk if you disagree, you stupid fuck" etc. - is not how that many people talk to their friends. It's not how you talk to strangers either. Trying to paint being polite as deceitful shows how out of touch some Denner customs are with the rest of society.

Fuchs wrote:

John Magnum wrote:Wait, so pointing out that monks are garbage or that MM-dive polymorph is busted is now the equivalent to using racial slurs?

What in the actual fuck?

No. But pointing those out in the style common here - "go suck a barrel of cosk if you disagree, you stupid fuck" etc. - is not how that many people talk to their friends. It's not how you talk to strangers either. Trying to paint being polite as deceitful shows how out of touch some Denner customs are with the rest of society.

It is deceitful to not state what you mean.

We don't mean racial slurs, so we don't say them. We do mean that Monks are stupid, and anyone who thinks otherwise is being stupid, so we do say that.

Your comparison of our actions talking about D&D to talking about race are shitty and don't make any sense because there is a clear distinguishing factor, whether or not we mean the thing in the first place.

So if you want to argue that Denners are actually "polite" to their friends do it making valid comparisons, such as whether we tell our friends to suck a barrel of cocks when they are wrong about gaming or politics.

(Hint: We do.)

Fuchs wrote:Do you think you're living in a deceitful atmosphere just beause you don't call your black friends racist names? Even if you are joking around almost every group has a few lines that are not crossed.

If the line that's crossed is 'monks are underpowered' or 'Mike Mearls ran a campaign of vaporware' that necessarily entails interacting with your buddies with a veneer of deceit. And those are the taboo areas in games I've played in and heard other people play in.

The real problem was never 'go fuck your dog in the eyesocket', because I have said such vulgar things in real life without causing an incident. So your point is anecdatally misguided; what actually happens is that people just use it as the first line of defense over having to cope with the fact that their argument sucks. It's called an escape hatch.

Concern trolling over tone is just another tool people like you use to create an atmosphere of false consensus. I don't appreciate you trying to pretend that the real issue is tone rather than challenging peoples' narratives.

Denners are pretty decent to each other if they're having a normal argument where no one side is completely retarded. It seems like the den insults ideas more often than it insults people. When a person is getting hate-fucked with words on the Den it's often because they were acting in a way that warranted such a response. GC and Mistborn got a lot of shit because they were acting like shitheads.

Does the Den go a bit too far sometimes? I don't know, it's mean words on the Internet. The Den rarely even goes so far as to say actually offensive things like "go kill yourself" or "I hope somebody rapes your entire family while forcing you to watch." Telling somebody to suck a barrel of cocks isn't actually offensive, it's one of the most ridiculous and friendly insults I've heard.

Edit: Whoa, I missed where Fuchs said he doesn't insult his friends. What the fuck sort of people do you hang out with where you can't call them an idiot for doing something stupid? I won't do it to an acquaintance, but if you're somebody I know isn't a pussy then I'll call you mean things when it is warranted, such as when you say something stupid, put the robber next to one of my cities in Catan, or throw a blue shell when I'm in first.

Challenging people's narratives is the real issue. Making people defensive is a good way to chase off any consensus, real or otherwise. Notice, for example, how the Den never reaches consensus on any serious issue? Is that a good model for game groups?

Yes, all cultures ritualize certain things that would otherwise be offensive so that they're not taken personally; that is why you can get away with talking like a sailor with your acquaintances without causing an incident. But that doesn't mean that people actually have any thicker skin or are more OK with you challenging their narratives; it just means they learn to interpret what you say as something other than what you say, because you don't actually literally mean what you say. The number of denners who really want to watch anyone here suck a barrel of male genitalia is extremely low. Unless you count yourself on that list, Lago, that's also a veneer of deceit.

The den's difference is that instead of hedging our certainty and trying to compromise with other human beings to achieve a workable state of consensus, real or imagined, we overstate our certainty and attack those who challenge it because it feels good to let off pent-up stress, creating an unworkable division, also real or imagined. So instead of false consensus we get false division where everyone is associated with a 'side' and won't stop fighting long after their certainty in their position has been shaken, because we do this for recreation and entertainment more than for the serious seeking of knowledge. If this reminds you of US politics, it's because the same principles are at work here; politics has become as much an entertainment and indulgence as an effort to run a country.

You will never find a group of sober people who are OK having their beliefs and narratives challenged provocatively. That goes against human nature and the basic psychology of social interaction. Tone is an important tool if you want to correct people's narratives. The Den doesn't use it; we prefer the catharsis of mud-slinging and so we have trash threads which spend dozens of pages arguing a single point to no avail. It's not a good model to follow when arguing is not your goal; say, if gaming is your goal, you don't want to act like the Den.

K wrote:I have found the recent bout of Den-based navelgazing to be rather annoying.

In b4 40 pages of navelgazing.

Stubbazubba wrote:Notice, for example, how the Den never reaches consensus on any serious issue?

This isn't even close to true. Want me to draw you up a list? Or have you been bitten by the concern troll bug, too?

Stubbazubba wrote:If this reminds you of US politics, it's because the same principles are at work here; politics has become as much an entertainment and indulgence as an effort to run a country.

If you wish to pursue this asinine point you'd better start a new fucking thread.

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:
Edit: Whoa, I missed where Fuchs said he doesn't insult his friends. What the fuck sort of people do you hang out with where you can't call them an idiot for doing something stupid? I won't do it to an acquaintance, but if you're somebody I know isn't a pussy then I'll call you mean things when it is warranted, such as when you say something stupid, put the robber next to one of my cities in Catan, or throw a blue shell when I'm in first.

If a friend does or says something stupid I call that stupid, not him.

Insults are not warranted even if he just caused your group to wipe

Fuchs is swiss. Those guys are weird even by Canadian standards.

Fuchs wrote: If a friend does or says something stupid I call that stupid, not him.

Insults are not warranted even if he just caused your group to wipe

In some groups, insulting somebody is meant to help them (as well as provide for an enjoyable rivalry). Just because I called my friend a fuckwit for doing something stupid doesn't mean I hate the guy. It just means he was being a fuckwit.

Not letting him know would be a disservice to him; friends should let friends know when they're fuckwits so they can correct their fuckwittery.

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:The Den rarely even goes so far as to say actually offensive things like "go kill yourself"

That's because it goes against one of the very few rules in the Den.
and I only know this because Fence Builder caught me doing it once.
and this is why i only have 9 fingers

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:

Fuchs wrote: If a friend does or says something stupid I call that stupid, not him.

Insults are not warranted even if he just caused your group to wipe

In some groups, insulting somebody is meant to help them (as well as provide for an enjoyable rivalry). Just because I called my friend a fuckwit for doing something stupid doesn't mean I hate the guy. It just means he was being a fuckwit.

Not letting him know would be a disservice to him; friends should let friends know when they're fuckwits so they can correct their fuckwittery.

Just because you do something stupid doesn't mean you are stupid. Rudeness should not be mistaken for honesty.

Fuchs: sailors are not polite or considerate in conversations with their peers. At all. They also have a really, really rough sense of humor.

Down here a while back, one guy's wife left him for a coworker. So as a hilarious joke, the two guys were assigned desks in a small room, facing each other, so the first guy could see all the new husband's family photos with the woman who left him. They kept that seating assignment for a long time. I understand it was not a friendly room.

With pranks like that, minor uncouthness just doesn't have the same impact.

Fuchs wrote:Just because you do something stupid doesn't mean you are stupid. Rudeness should not be mistaken for honesty.

Do you not insult your friends when they throw blue shells in Mario Kart as well? Because if so you may just be a saint.

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:

Fuchs wrote:Just because you do something stupid doesn't mean you are stupid. Rudeness should not be mistaken for honesty.

Do you not insult your friends when they throw blue shells in Mario Kart as well? Because if so you may just be a saint.

I don't play mario kart. What exactly do blue shells do?