TGD's views are too extremist for mainstream gaming

[ModelCitizen]

So instead of the usual Den fare, let's have a thread about how [insert your favorite system here] is the greatest system ever and all the rules work perfectly (even when they don't, because you were playing the game wrong by enforcing the rules) and caring what the rules are makes you a powergaming munchkin and if you tried that shit at my table I'd knock your teeth down your fucking throat.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Fuck you. That isn't even what I fucking said and you know it.

[Fuchs]

Straw manning. And a perfect example for that attitude.

Most actual gaming groups don't have such extreme attitudes. The majority of the players, and likely even the GMs, don't freak out over rules imbalances and imperfections. They won't burn you at the stake for trying to improve them either. Most won't really care about what system is used, as long as they don't have to learn more than one, maybe two systems.

All they want is to have a fun game with friends.

But the vast majority of players would consider you insane if you threatened them with bodily harm over game systems/rules. The vast majority of people would do the same.

[Username17]

Fuck you. That isn't even what I fucking said and you know it.

Yes. What you said was just a bunch of passive aggressive tone trolling. The harsh reality is that in the "mainstream" it is considered normal to throw a hissy fit if people don't accept your particular one-true-wayism, and most gaming groups are cults of personality with like four people in them. They last until egos clash too powerfully or the school year ends, and then people go find a new group to either dominate or accept the bizarre tenets of.

The idea that HERO system is perfectly enjoyable in its original purpose as an episodic 4-color comic supers game, and fairly shitty at everything else people try to get it to do is in fact way more moderate than the vast majority of gaming groups actually are. The only reason that people can even have discussions about RPGs on the Big Purple is that they have brutally and irregularly enforced rules forbidding people from doing more than passive aggressive baiting against one another. TheRPGSite is sadly typical with its "I would personally start an actual fist fight if your character in a game used their actual written abilities in a way that overshadowed another character whose character sheet has literally less stuff on it in every possible way" mentality.

I know you don't want to hear this: but the arguments between Phone Lobster and me, where I can at least agree to disagree and walk away from the thread without anyone getting a ban or the thread getting locked - that's what "moderate" looks like in the RPG community. We use some strong language here, but we actually aren't the extremists. If you want to see what extremists look like, go look at the goon squad from Something Awful. Better yet: try to imagine what the people who got banned from the Something Awful goon squad for being too extreme are like.

-Username17

[Fuchs]

Fuck you. That isn't even what I fucking said and you know it.

Yes. What you said was just a bunch of passive aggressive tone trolling. The harsh reality is that in the "mainstream" it is considered normal to throw a hissy fit if people don't accept your particular one-true-wayism, and most gaming groups are cults of personality with like four people in them. They last until egos clash too powerfully or the school year ends, and then people go find a new group to either dominate or accept the bizarre tenets of.

I know you don't want to hear this: but the arguments between Phone Lobster and me, where I can at least agree to disagree and walk away from the thread without anyone getting a ban or the thread getting locked - that's what "moderate" looks like in the RPG community. We use some strong language here, but we actually aren't the extremists. If you want to see what extremists look like, go look at the goon squad from Something Awful. Better yet: try to imagine what the people who got banned from the Something Awful goon squad for being too extreme are like.

-Username17

I think you have a bit of Internet tunnel vision. The typical gamer won't see much of a difference between a "moderate" discussion here or elsewhere, it all looks like freaks obsessing way too much on the internet over a game to him.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

When does the "Agree to Disagree and walk away" part come in, Frank? Because usually your MO is to berate people who disagree with you for being idiots and wrong for about a dozen pages and then stop posting to a thread because you got sick of repeating the same point over and over.

Frank, you are clearly a very smart person, and you believe the things you believe so strongly because you never bother to talk about anything you have not thought extensively about. But you have never, in the more than ten years I've been acquainted with you, given a crap about civility, and you have never seemed to give a crap about other people's opinions.

[Fuchs]

The insult overdose is another thing that's out of touch with the "mainstream". Yes, it can be refreshing to not have to watch and weigh every word in order to avoid a moderator, but it can also be a trap.

There's a reason society frowns on insults and impoliteness. Yes, sometimes having to be (overly correct and) polite can hamper things by creating hang-ups and taboos, but often (especially outside the army), insults and curses do more harm than help when it comes to getting a group of people to do things. That's because people tend to take insults personally, and so insulting others creates unneeded friction.

It works on a forum between people who don't give a damn about each other, but face to face in a gaming group? You would look like an antisocial freak if you talked to your friends like some people here "discuss things".

[Aryxbez]

So instead of the usual Den fare, let's have a thread about how [insert your favorite system here] is the greatest system ever and all the rules work perfectly (even when they don't, because you were playing the game wrong by enforcing the rules) and caring what the rules are makes you a powergaming munchkin and if you tried that shit at my table I'd knock your teeth down your fucking throat.

(sighs...) This kind of thread makes me sad most, tis truly an example of what the Gaming Den isn't supposed to be like, or about.

TheRPGSite is sadly typical with its "I would personally start an actual fist fight if your character in a game used their actual written abilities in a way that overshadowed another character whose character sheet has literally less stuff on it in every possible way" mentality.

With the main poster's last quote, he sounds "exactly" like someone from there, threatening someone with violence, because apparently good sum of posters are on a Fiat bender lately (though possible I'm misunderstanding him here).

What the hell? Friends insult each other all the time, even assigning curse words to one another meant in a somewhat endearing manner. Much like Gaming Den, where posters sling insults at one another, so do friends, and it doesn't make them any more "antisocial" than they currently are if conversing with one another.

[icyshadowlord]

I actually like the fact that people here can be straight-forward with stuff. And who gives a crap about swearing, seriously? The world would be a much better place if people did say what's on their mind instead of going around issues, talking bullshit, lying or just saying things people want to hear instead of what they need to hear.

[sabs]

I don't think posters are on a fiat kick. But there does seem to be a 'it's all well and good to demand a certain level of competence, but at the end of the fucking day, it's a game I play with friends/to be social'

There are Dick DM's and no amount of 'perfect system' is going to make any difference. Some of us only game with our long time friends and so we have a different solution / tolerance for things. Some people only get to play at random organized game events, and so they have a different experience. And while this game does a lot of charop wanking, it's mostly to show how BAD a certain game system is. Not just for the charop dick measuring. People who have gamed a long time like to have characters that are actually going to be effective in the role they want to play. THey're also sick and tired of dealing with character imbalance in certain games. And you know, this place is filled with rpg nerds who like to homebrew shit, and who are looking for criticism(or validation) but since everyone else is a homebrew wanna be designer, there's way more criticism than validation.

Although, After Sundown and Tomes are both examples of things that were well received. Fantasy Cyber Heartbreaker much less so sadly.

[Fuchs]

Swearing is not the same as insulting. Jokingly using insults between friends is not the same as insulting strangers.

[ModelCitizen]

With the main poster's last quote, he sounds "exactly" like someone from there, threatening someone with violence, because apparently good sum of posters are on a Fiat bender lately (though possible I'm misunderstanding him here).

Yeah, you are misunderstanding. I'm making fun of that guy and all the other god-complex DMs like him. Personally, I have no intention of kicking anyone's ass through the internet.

[Voss]

It works on a forum between people who don't give a damn about each other, but face to face in a gaming group? You would look like an antisocial freak if you talked to your friends like some people here "discuss things".

I find the idea that people here aren't elitist antisocial freaks a little strange and disturbing. It was my default assumption on day 1, and every day since has born that assumption out.

[K]

I have found the recent bout of Den-based navelgazing to be rather annoying.

[shadzar]

I actually like the fact that people here can be straight-forward with stuff. And who gives a crap about swearing, seriously? The world would be a much better place if people did say what's on their mind instead of going around issues, talking bullshit, lying or just saying things people want to hear instead of what they need to hear.

yeah, grandma friendly places are for places with grandmas, but then you have to ask if "all grandmas" are a certain way or a false stereotype? likewise places "safe for work", or for the ickle-kiddies are for those sort of activities, not the whole of players. a forum isnt for babysitters, and the kiddies have places specially for them because they cant handle the blunt truths, there is no santa claus or tooth fairy or easter bunny. if one can be mature enough to accept the fantasy world of gaming is NOT reality, then they should be able to accept the maturity of blunt speak and not fear any words in the language used. the "colorful" metaphors help show through typed text the emotions that cannot otherwise be present in the emotionless medium.

i dont give a fuck what word you use, so long as you use it correctly and are able to communicate which involves listening. like sabs recent anecdote. i just dont believe it. i accept it happened, dont care either way, but need MUCH more proof form people it actually happened to to state it as the norm as he has. maybe normal for him, but not the whole of the game. present fact as facts, and anecdotes as what they are, not global facts but regional cases.

so if someone is mature enough to express what they are saying, and maturity has nothing to do with age, just the ability to understand the concepts within the discussion, then i prefer to talk to them, rather than the ones that dont or have some hangups about any word or idea.

you ahve only yourself to blame if you arent being open enough to say what you want to say, people arent fucking mind readers that should assume what you say. your job is to communicate your POV, not for someone else to guess it.

/beer

[Wrathzog]

Better yet: try to imagine what the people who got banned from the Something Awful goon squad for being too extreme are like.

Haha that's me.

[Korwin]

That was a trap!

When does the "Agree to Disagree and walk away" part come in, Frank? Because usually your MO is to berate people who disagree with you for being idiots and wrong for about a dozen pages and then stop posting to a thread because you got sick of repeating the same point over and over.

Frank. Acknowledge that or leave this thread.

Since I refuse to acknowledge your proposition on the grounds that it is both wrong and deceitful, I guess I have no choice.

/Thread Left.

-Username17

Edit: btw. it was this one http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53766

[ishy]

you ahve only yourself to blame if you arent being open enough to say what you want to say, people arent fucking mind readers that should assume what you say. your job is to communicate your POV, not for someone else to guess it.

But that is your biggest problem Shadzar, it is quite often hard to distill the point from your long posts.

[codeGlaze]

I find the idea that people here aren't elitist antisocial freaks a little strange and disturbing. It was my default assumption on day 1, and every day since has born that assumption out.

Maybe elitist, to what ever degree, but not anti-social.
It's a bit intimidating going toe to toe with the prominent members, but by no stretch have I ever felt like people were actively trying to get rid of posters (who didn't have it coming).

[Voss]

I find the idea that people here aren't elitist antisocial freaks a little strange and disturbing. It was my default assumption on day 1, and every day since has born that assumption out.

Maybe elitist, to what ever degree, but not anti-social.
It's a bit intimidating going toe to toe with the prominent members, but by no stretch have I ever felt like people were actively trying to get rid of posters (who didn't have it coming).

Well, that is the point, isn't it. 'Who didn't have it coming' is pretty much open to, well, whatever standard anyone wants to apply.

[Koumei]

I have found the recent bout of Den-based navelgazing to be rather annoying.

Could you explain what you mean? I not only can't point to an example of navelgazing, I don't actually know what the term means, other than to literally look at someone's (your own?) bellybutton.

icy: it's said that nobody says the first thing that comes to their mind, they say the second thing, once they've filtered out the first thing (which was too rude). Then you have ventriloquists, who, through the mouth of their puppet, can say whatever shit comes into their head straight away, as long as they then tell the puppet you can't say that. There's also a mental condition where the brain's filter doesn't work and you actually do say whatever comes to mind. Other symptoms tend to include swelling around the orbital bone, nasal bleeding and tooth loss. Because people punch you in the face.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I offer you 3 increasingly dubious internet dictionaries. Choose whichever you please:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/navel-gazing
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... l%20gazing
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... eOurNavels

Examples: "What is fun?" "Why fun?" "Is TGD the right kind of community?"

[K]

I have found the recent bout of Den-based navelgazing to be rather annoying.

Could you explain what you mean? I not only can't point to an example of navelgazing, I don't actually know what the term means, other than to literally look at someone's (your own?) bellybutton.

Navel-gazing is a general term for any kind of self-absorbed contemplation.

Basically, I'm getting bored with the number of people who want to tell the posters at the Den what the Den does or means, only to have Denners get into long tangents about what they think the Den is or what people do here.

It's a forum with a few dozen irregular posters, they like games, and the mod allows cursing. Pretending that it's anything else or has some grand group mission or identity is pretty weird.

It's even weirder when the conspiracy theories start rolling out because none of the few people who decided to read a thread also agree with the OP and decide to boost the OP's ego.

Even the small amount of navel-gazing that I'm doing in this post is pretty pathetic.

[Koumei]

Oh right. Yeah. With the exception of PL's one, which won points for the tone of the Subject line - implying a grown-up forum (such as?) would send the Den to its Domain for a time out, I've pretty much been ignoring them.

It's a forum where people who like games - and arguing about games hang out and argue. Whatever.

[Zinegata]

*sigh*. More Den navel gazing. Fine. I'll throw my hat in the ring *puts on flame-retardant suit*

Aside from people getting touchy-feely about being told that the Den is going to burn their house to the ground and say bad things about them in the Internet, the "issue" with the Den as opposed to "mainstream" tabletop roleplaying is very, very simple.

Its mindset is geared towards competitive play, whereas RPGs are fudamentally co-ops.

It isn't a wrong mindset mind you. There is a use to pointing out that +2 Skill Check feats totally suck and no sane person should take them if they even remotely understand the system.

But most RPGers aren't playing because they want to beat the combat / social / harsh environment mini-game. What sticks in their mind is how they did it "together" with their friends, and those memories and co-op experience are what tend to stick as opposed to how that +2 to Jump never ever became relevant in the whole campaign.

Note: That's not to say that there are no RPG players and groups who exist to murder the DM's monsters and the DM doesn't roll the punches. But those groups are probably off playing Last Night on Earth or some other more competitive game by this point in the tabletop ecosystem.

BTW, speaking of boardgames, the Den does give plenty of good advice for making those, even if they aren't necessarily specifically tailored for them