The Gaming Den has an Attitude Problem

[icyshadowlord]

I'd say the only one with an attitude problem here is PL, judging from the way his little discussion with Koumei here went.

Judging from the same conversation, I'd be also be willing to bet that he's just a retarded troll with nothing better to do with his time.

Edit: Unless asking for people not to be Basket Weavers or total assholes to others somehow counts as being elitist when you have to keep them out of your game.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Now, at the risk of being almost on topic, if I had one complaint about the Gaming Den's attitude... can we not take our animosity of eachother so seriously? Yes, we engage in a lot of angry rhetoric during our arguments. I have said mean, hateful things to a number of people and I apologize for nothing you insufferable fuckwits, but I don't actually hate any of you and I don't actually think you are insufferable fuckwits despite having just said so.

Whatever, DONG SUCKER Matticus.

[Mistborn]

I hope none of these examples involve Mr. GC, Mistborn, shadzar or any of the other troll posters who frequent here. They are not elitists, they are trolls and if you are responding to them you are making the situation worse.

I'm not trolling I'm just disagreeing with people and they're being butthurt about it.

Let me summarize what people have been saying in the winning D&D threads and derivatives.

You can't beat ECL+4 optimized encounters? How basket weaver can you be? I'm the optimizer king of D&D who beats it on three different tiers of difficulty and always remembers to silence bell towers. None of you basketweavers are even on my level so I don't have to ever post statblocks.

*People mock him*

Wharglbargl image spam

1) MTP is bad and causes people to become bad DMs

2) Parties should face encounters that they are able to beat without DM pitty. This can be encounters at ECL-2 ECL=, ECL=2 or even ECL +/-4 it doesn't really matter.

3) People prefer to play on higher difficultys and will put in effort to be able too.

*People disagree*

Wow how frozen fast can you be, seriously I can see icicles forming. Stop being frozen fast sucking your artfully woven basket of cocks. Overall grade F. Hope to see you in the fall semester basketweavers

I'm the prettiest special snowflake princess. MTP is wonderful and sparkly and never bad people should do it all the time. I demand that the warm motherlike DM fudge dice to keep characters alive and screw the rules that get in the way of the story. This what D&D is all about and I'm going to act condescendingly to anyone who disagrees with me.

herp derp CR 3 Vrocks

[rasmuswagner]

Rasmus is kind of correct, if you ignore the noise of GC/Mistborn, this board has been kind of quite for the last little while. Maybe that's because the gaming world seems a bit quite right now, other than shitting on D&D Next their doesn't seem like much going on.

Yeah, that's probably it.

[DSMatticus]

Now, at the risk of being almost on topic, if I had one complaint about the Gaming Den's attitude... can we not take our animosity of eachother so seriously? Yes, we engage in a lot of angry rhetoric during our arguments. I have said mean, hateful things to a number of people and I apologize for nothing you insufferable fuckwits, but I don't actually hate any of you and I don't actually think you are insufferable fuckwits despite having just said so.

Whatever, DONG SUCKER Matticus.

That second emoticon is hilarious. Look at the dots in those eyes. They're pointed straight outwards. It's a heaping pile of smug with outward signs of possible mental disability.

I can't decide what the funniest punchline to wrap this up with is (because option paralysis) but the short of it is HAHAHA I'M CALLING YOU DUMB AND PRETENTIOUS HAHAHA.

Wow how frozen fast can you be, seriously I can see icicles forming. Stop being frozen fast sucking your artfully woven basket of cocks. Overall grade F. Hope to see you in the fall semester basketweavers

If you are poking fun at yourself for overusing all of those insults, that is actually pretty damn funny, in a "you have ten seconds to be as Mistborn as possible kind of way."

[Lago PARANOIA]

It's a heaping pile of smug with outward signs of possible mental disability.

I hope I'm not giving you any insights into my personality. New ones, anyway.

[fectin]

THAC0 was a great mechanic, because it was slightly harder to calculate than BAB. That's a good thing because it helps weed out the players who only want to hang out with friends, and not do maths all evening.

But requiring encyclopedic knowledge of a corpus with length and liveliness comparable to Atlas Shrugged is a real masterstroke. There's no way those stinking casuals will wade through that!

TTRPGs: Srs Bsns.

[Aryxbez]

this board has been kind of quite for the last little while. Maybe that's because the gaming world seems a bit quite right now, other than shitting on D&D Next their doesn't seem like much going on.

Even then, I haven't seen much D&D next hate, it's pretty much dwindled to dead, as I guessed in that thread, seems like we're all full of apathy for that entire edition. If it's to any consolation, there has been a thread I've been wanting to post about for some time, though, I share concern of how to phrase it all, and if it's already been said and done before.

Other than that, there's still the Strike Legion thread, that I've yet to comment further on (though that system sounds bad, worse Skill challenges, moving DC Thresholds with higher numbers for success, like needing 3 successes of rolls of 8 or more, can be an actual DC in that game). Lago PARANOIA "still" hasn't made a review for the Pathfinder starter box, and how its actually good quality for what it is and...I'm sure there's some RPG somewhere that needs reviewing from the Den.

[fbmf]

And despite fbmf's insistence that it's suicidal madness (exaggeration) to game with anyone here, I actually disagree, and I'd probably give a game with any of you a shot.

I've repeatedly said that, with few exceptions, I'd sit down and have a drink with pretty much any of you. I may not game like you all game, but it doesn't mean I think you're bad people.

Also, if we're talking about a card game (not CCG, but like BANG!) or board game I could probably be persuaded. I just don't see my typical TTRPG session being up to par with what you guys expect, and/or vice versa.

Game On,
fbmf

[Mistborn]

Wow how frozen fast can you be, seriously I can see icicles forming. Stop being frozen fast sucking your artfully woven basket of cocks. Overall grade F. Hope to see you in the fall semester basketweavers

If you are poking fun at yourself for overusing all of those insults, that is actually pretty damn funny, in a "you have ten seconds to be as Mistborn as possible kind of way."

How can you read that sentence as being anything but self parody

[sabs]

Wow how frozen fast can you be, seriously I can see icicles forming. Stop being frozen fast sucking your artfully woven basket of cocks. Overall grade F. Hope to see you in the fall semester basketweavers

If you are poking fun at yourself for overusing all of those insults, that is actually pretty damn funny, in a "you have ten seconds to be as Mistborn as possible kind of way."

How can you read that sentence as being anything but self parody

Because we think you're a raving idiot who is quite capable of saying such incredibly stupid shit with a straight face and meaning it?

[Mistborn]

Because we think you're a raving idiot who is quite capable of saying such incredibly stupid shit with a straight face and meaning it?

Well there's no need to spare my feelings tell me what you really think.

;_;

[echoVanguard]

If we kicked out all the 3.xers who had not personally read through all of the PH, MM and DMG from the hobby... we would be left with, well, probably about half the posters on the Gaming Den if we were LUCKY.

I totally disagree with your assertion. Most competent GMs of 3.X will have read or at least skimmed the entire core ruleset. Furthermore, from a product design standpoint, you seem to be advocating that since people don't read all these rules and words, we should never write them in the first place? That's not a design philosophy; that's a declaration of surrender.

The core idea should be that your game is playable with a minimum of knowledge - usually just the core resolution mechanics and enough personally-relevant rules knowledge to make your character do stuff. I don't think any of us disagree with that assertion. But saying the entire game needs to have that level of brevity is misguided, to say the least.

Some people do make characters outside of gameplay, and some people don't. Sometimes you have people who don't have the time outside of the session to do the research, and as a result they slow down the game and their characters might be less than optimal. But they're not playing the game incorrectly - just inefficiently. Designing any game to cater to that demographic will always have the result of reducing your game's depth and richness. Instead, it is better to aim to reduce the payoff of research, so that a well-built character is perhaps 10% more effective than a character designed on the spot (instead of entire logarithmic scales more effective, as can happen in 3.X).

echo

[Korwin]

And yet reading the WHOLE book is something people don't do.

What, I'm an alien?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Lago PARANOIA "still" hasn't made a review for the Pathfinder starter box, and how its actually good quality for what it is and...I'm sure there's some RPG somewhere that needs reviewing from the Den.

Oh, shit, I totally forgot about it. I even have half of my notes on that project.

[RadiantPhoenix]

If we kicked out all the 3.xers who had not personally read through all of the PH, MM and DMG from the hobby... we would be left with, well, probably about half the posters on the Gaming Den if we were LUCKY.

I personally read the core rulebooks on my own. I don't remember a bunch of the stuff, but I could probably find it pretty quickly if I had to.

I think that people who don't want to read a thousand pages of rules should play games that don't have a thousand pages of rules.

For example, both Arkham Horror and Sentinels of the Multiverse are games I enjoy that have under a hundred pages of rules. (Sentinels might have that many pages in all its rulebooks combined, but they're in huge font with lots of information you don't need in order to play)

[MisterDee]

For example, both Arkham Horror and Sentinels of the Multiverse are games I enjoy that have under a hundred pages of rules.

Plus, reading the rules of Arkham Horror gives you an idea of what it's really like to gaze at Cthulhu.

I love that game, and the rules aren't actually that hard once you manage to parse the manual, but man, whoever edited that must have tens of barrels of cocks waiting to be sucked in his basement.

[Whatever]

How can you read that sentence as being anything but self parody

Because Poe's Law. Did you know that vaccines cause global warming?

[PhoneLobster]

I totally disagree with your assertion. Most competent GMs of 3.X will have reador at least skimmed the entire core ruleset.

So you totally disagree with me, except where you almost entirely agree with me within less than ten words than that.

Nice.

Also nice to see a lot of "well I read all three books... once... ages ago... so that means EVERYONE I GAME WITH HAS AM I RIGHT!? from other posters. Great way to show awareness of how people other than our sheltered minority community of especially obsessive GMs and rules designers actually game there.

Try asking players, try asking all the rather large majority of players who don't GM the system they are playing. How many do you think have even more than cracked open a DMG? How many have done more than look at the cool pictures in the MM? How many do you think have read the full details of a class other than one they have played in the PH? Read the full selection of spells in the PH?

Anyone claiming that 3.x players who have read, actually READ, no skimming REALLY does not count as reading and understanding a rules set, all the way through the three core rules books, let alone for ALL the editions of 3.x, is anything other than a minority is deceiving themselves and acting like an elitist jerk for pure 100% wanking purposes.

The core idea should be that your game is playable with a minimum of knowledge - usually just the core resolution mechanics and enough personally-relevant rules knowledge to make your character do stuff. I don't think any of us disagree with that assertion.

And this idea specifically is under attack by the likes of Koumei and Frank.

They have outright stated "read ALL the rules before play or GTFO"

[Foxwarrior]

So how come Koumei and Frank aren't going to De Canistro Textrinum and backing up poor little Lord Mistborn?

[Koumei]

I don't demand or even expect people to, for instance, understand the Grappling rules or precisely what will provoke an AoO. I do think they should be able to make a character (and if the competence of the character is in doubt, then yeah, they at least showed they were interested and willing, and I'll totally help them fix the character if they want, after the game - or if they call me beforehand for help, that suggests they want it to work, so I can help them there). I expect them to know that when I call for a Spot check or a Fort Save, that means they find the spot where that bonus is listed, roll a d20, add the two and tell me what that means. And that when they take 17 damage, they subtract that from their HP of 61 (while having their max HP listed separately), leaving them with 44 HP.

If I said "They need to know all the rules ever", then that was failure of communication on my part, or success of vodka on my part. But if expecting people to have some minimal level of interest in the game at all* is too much, then there really is no hope for it as a hobby. You know, something you're supposed to be interested in.

*If you just want to hang out with friends, you can actually just do that. You can say "Hey, mind if I rock up this afternoon?" or "Do you want to go out to Grilld tomorrow night?"

[virgil]

Try asking players, try asking all the rather large majority of players who don't GM the system they are playing. How many do you think have even more than cracked open a DMG? How many have done more than look at the cool pictures in the MM? How many do you think have read the full details of a class other than one they have played in the PH? Read the full selection of spells in the PH?

Do you know what's terrible? That bunch of Paizo fan-boys I used to game with have all significantly read the rules, and only one of them besides me had run the games...

But yes, I'm actually in agreement with the basic gist of PL's rant; maybe not with his organic character basis from the other thread, but that's another thread. A game should be playable with minimal start-up investment by the player.

EDIT: Koumei's point is salient, which does mean PL was being hyperbolic (surprise!). For something as extreme as not being able to add your Will save to a d20 roll or even know what their attack bonus is, that is the point I will say GTFO. Character creation in 3.X isn't something I expect a newbie to be able to handle on their own for at least the first three characters, both in proficiency or willingness because the book is intimidating (I've players with severe dyslexia).

[Blasted]

EDIT: Koumei's point is salient, which does mean PL was being hyperbolic (surprise!). For something as extreme as not being able to add your Will save to a d20 roll or even know what their attack bonus is, that is the point I will say GTFO. Character creation in 3.X isn't something I expect a newbie to be able to handle on their own for at least the first three characters, both in proficiency or willingness because the book is intimidating (I've players with severe dyslexia).

I game with a bunch of people of varying intellectual capacity. Some have brains the size of planets, others would have trouble with 3rd grade maths problems. As long as the gamer is willing to play the game and have a good time doing it, I have no issue with helping them with character development or figuring out their attack bonus or whatever. Even if I'm sitting next to them doing it every attack. Maybe that's just because there's no longer so many gamers that I'm willing to turf people out based on their maths skills.

It pisses me off when grognards erect THAC0 as a 'You must be this high to ride' problem and charops and any other game mechanic fall in the same bucket.

[CCarter]

I totally disagree with your assertion. Most competent GMs of 3.X will have read or at least skimmed the entire core ruleset.
-echo

(disclaimer -fairly drunk over here...)

Yeah good for them.
Cover to cover or nothing, bitches. Competency in 3.5 is like 3% of the player base. Its a ridiculously specific ruleset where not knowing where page XXX is gets you hosed sideways with a broom, but knowing all the rules loopholes means you're a god. No one knows all the fucking rules in the system except maybe Frank, on a good day.

How many 3.5 GMs know that:
*if you're untrained in Jump, you end up prone unless you beat the DC by 5.
*that a tower shield blocks an anti-magic field (if, as per the errata, you spend a standard action) because emanations can't go around corners?
*that your ranger can keep their horse going for hours, since their CLW wand curing fatigue damage from forced marching also fixes the fatigue? But you can't actually make the fucking thing go unless you have Handle Animal, since it can't be used untrained.
I mean fuck, unless you read the exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions, the system is lame since the GM will produce retarded rulings that are the exact opposite of the system 100% of the time.

Sorry if I sound like shadzar, as mentioned I'm hella drunk.
PS DSMatticus is awesome I totally want to quote you on how much everyone sucks barrels of cocks.

[Username17]

So how come Koumei and Frank aren't going to De Canistro Textrinum and backing up poor little Lord Mistborn?

Because that thread was stupid and I dropped out of it around the 23rd page mark. There are literally hundreds of posts after I stopped reading it, and I'm not going to rectify that. It's a flame thread that nothing positive can possibly come from. Eventually you just have to be the bigger man and walk away.



-Username17