Pathfinder

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:49 pm

So, I am going to be joining a Pathfinder game.
I'm trying to make an interesting Kobold Wizard

What are some interesting combinations, schools, etc that work well. What are the really bad trap options I should avoid?

It's that, or I get to play a premade character that I'm not particularly excited about.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:27 pm

You play a Conjurer (because it's still the boss school), Transmuter (still #2!), or Foresight Diviner because man, dat school ability!

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:45 pm

In all editions, what you can and should do with a wizard is highly dependent on what level you are going to be. Also on what books are allowed. Pathfinder is no exception.

At first level, the correct choice is still Color Spray and Sleep. Since you're playing Caster Edition, enjoy your +2 to Int and d6 hit die and various minor school benefits on top of that. But at higher levels, various other specific spells have been nerfed, only to be replaced with new broken pathfinder specific spells.

There are literally 36 schools to choose from as a Pathfinder Wizard, and all of them grant a bonus that only barely matters at first level. All of them still grant you the extra spell slot for the associated magic school. All of them require you to pick two opposition schools, but the opposition schools are not even taken off your list (they just get harder to learn), so the school choice is essentially free power and you take it. Some of the powers are not nearly worthless and are instead quite good at low level, and the school powers sometimes grow into something quite powerful at 8th level and sometimes don't, so projected levels are really important.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:06 pm

What level are you and what material is allowed?

If you want cynical power, you can't really beat the Spellslinger. If the thought fills you with shame, there's also the Shadowcaster. But the Shadowcaster doesn't pay off until level 10 and even then not all that much.

Arcane Bond is really, really awesome. Unless you're going for some familiar cheese, you want Arcane Bond. Why?

A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. The bonded object cannot be used to cast spells from the wizard's opposition schools (see arcane school below).

A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). If the bonded object is a wand, it loses its wand abilities when its last charge is consumed, but it is not destroyed and it retains all of its bonded object properties and can be used to craft a new wand. The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the appropriate type.

If you're using the advanced races guide and are starting at/will get past level 5 there's almost no reason NOT to play a Samsaran unless you don't want your DM to jump across the table and strangle you.

School specialization-wise, almost anything is good. Though unlike in 3.5E D&D, specialization doesn't cause you to be unable to learn the spells; just have it take up extra spell slots. This is a huge power-up to mid-level wizards, of course.

But generally, the usual caveats of wizard optimization in Pathfinder apply once you get past the handful of nerfs. Illusion and enchantment are barely touched. And of course Pathfinder also added in a few new good spells. In addition to all of the non-nerfed classics, there's:

Level 0:
Daze. This is very good news for you, since Cantrips in Pathfinder don't consume spell slots.

Level 1:
Infernal healing - Fuck wands of cure light wounds, you want this bad boy.
Peacebond - Not good on its own, but it's a 1st-level abjuration spell and is a prime candidate for use on your familiar(s) with Imbue with Spell Ability.

Level 2:
Blood Transcription - If you're regularly fighting enemy spellcasters, this lets you plunder the spells from their dead body.
Create Pit - AoE reflex-save based enemy disabler. Because being at the edge of the pit causes you to have to make additional saves and there's a Climb DC of 25 to get out, it's very hard for people to escape.
Compassionate Ally
Defending Bone - Like stoneskin, except that there isn't a material component cost and lasts longer. If you're doing TFC this spell is a must.
Scare - Great spell; it's like cause fear except that it can effect more monsters of a higher HD. It also lasts longer.
Skinsend - Ridiculously good spell, but also extremely dangerous to use at low levels. If you're going to use it, then a Pearly White Spindle Ioun Stone is a necessity.

Level 3:
Ash Storm - Very nicely fits the gap of cloud spells between Fog Cloud and Solid Fog. Has a HUGE AoE, too.
Mad Monkeys - Hilariously 'mad'dening spell against critters caught in the swarm. The distraction DC is too low to make it a viable option for more than a couple of levels after you get it.
Malediction(if your DM lets you use Hero points more than once or twice though s/he deserves a kick in the pants)
Vision of Hell- Not great on its own, but Pathfinder publishes a ton of mass-shaken effects.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:15 pm

So, I've talked to the GM. How /bad/ is Arcane Trickster?
I can't look at the books till tonight. Oh, and I'll be starting at 4th Level.
And is the feat chain leading up to Draconic paragon a trap? or is it actually halfway decent?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:34 pm

Arcane Trickster is completely pointless. It causes you to set caster levels on fire and has bad BAB in Pathfinder.

Pathfinder does allow you to add sneak attack damage to spells, though, at character level 16, minimum.

Generally, it's a bad idea for a wizard to take any prestige class in Pathfinder. Because you lose out on the two free bonus spells a level. If you absolutely must do a prestige class, the Veiled Illusionist is the only real choice you have. It's much better for clerics, though.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:12 pm

*ponders*
Alright, lets rethink this.
The party needs someone who can sneak effectively, deal with locks and traps, and possibly help the one and only melee character not get overrun.

I'd like to play a Kobold Spellcaster. Any ideas on how to make these two things mesh together in a way that doesn't make me feel really weak?
Is there some Divine, God of Thieves trick to getting Disarm Traps, and Pick Locks as class skills?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:23 pm

sabs wrote:*ponders*
Alright, lets rethink this.
The party needs someone who can sneak effectively, deal with locks and traps, and possibly help the one and only melee character not get overrun.

I'd like to play a Kobold Spellcaster. Any ideas on how to make these two things mesh together in a way that doesn't make me feel really weak?
Is there some Divine, God of Thieves trick to getting Disarm Traps, and Pick Locks as class skills?

Be a Beguiler. Pull out the PHB2, look your DM right in the fucking eye, tell him that the entire fucking point of Pathfinder was that it was "compatible" with 3.5 materials, and play a fucking Beguiler. The end.

-Username17

Tumbling Down · Post by **Tumbling Down** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:34 pm

You should strongly consider being a Thassilonian Specialist, probably Conjurer; it's like the Pathfinder version of the 3.5 Fuckyou Specialist.

For PrCs, Magaambyan Arcanist is pretty good, and Veiled Illusionis, as Lago mentioned, is not that bad.
If you want disable device and perception, there's always Cyphermage, although, since it's Pathfinder, you kinda already have all skills as class skills.
The Pathfinder Savant has some nifty abilities, but probably isn't worth losing a level for.
Other than that, it's mostly weak shit unless you can actually get away with being a Genie Binder.

You also need to take a closer look at Traits, if you are using them, to make sure you get something decent like Magical Lineage.

Frank already mentioned some good PF spells, but I am going to give an honorable shoutout to Emergency Force Sphere; although it's unfortunately in Evocation.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:36 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
sabs wrote:*ponders*
Alright, lets rethink this.
The party needs someone who can sneak effectively, deal with locks and traps, and possibly help the one and only melee character not get overrun.

I'd like to play a Kobold Spellcaster. Any ideas on how to make these two things mesh together in a way that doesn't make me feel really weak?
Is there some Divine, God of Thieves trick to getting Disarm Traps, and Pick Locks as class skills?
Be a Beguiler. Pull out the PHB2, look your DM right in the fucking eye, tell him that the entire fucking point of Pathfinder was that it was "compatible" with 3.5 materials, and play a fucking Beguiler. The end.

-Username17

*Makes a warblade*

I hadn't noticed you can have this kind of fun with PF.

MisterDee · Post by **MisterDee** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:00 am

sabs wrote:*ponders*
Alright, lets rethink this.
The party needs someone who can sneak effectively, deal with locks and traps, and possibly help the one and only melee character not get overrun.

I'd like to play a Kobold Spellcaster. Any ideas on how to make these two things mesh together in a way that doesn't make me feel really weak?
Is there some Divine, God of Thieves trick to getting Disarm Traps, and Pick Locks as class skills?

The Regional trait Vagabond Child (urban) gives you a +1 to Disable Device and makes it a class skill. Disable Device covers both Open Lock and Disarm Traps in Pathfinder.

EDIT: you still don't get to disarm magical traps without a Rogue Level (although I'm sure Dispel Magic can do the trick)

Also, if you have domains, the Thievery domain gives you a reroll on a Disable Device check once per day at level 8 - more when you get to lolforgetit level.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:38 am

Keep in mind that the Thievery domain does not, by RAW, give you Disable Device as a class skill. Unless they went and errated that without me noticing.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:09 am

Grek wrote:Keep in mind that the Thievery domain does not, by RAW, give you Disable Device as a class skill. Unless they went and errated that without me noticing.

But the difference between class skill and not is 3 points. And you can get those 3 points plus another point from a trait.

K · Post by K » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:14 am

The decision to play a Wizard is pretty heavily dependent on how free your DM is going to be about adding spells to your spell book. If you are going to be trekking through the wilderness far from MagicMarts and/or not going to encountering enemy Wizards with spellbooks in their pockets, there are enough really nice Sorcerer options to make it the better choice. For example, the human Sorcerer gets an indecent number of spells, and it's really hard to say no to it if you aren't going to get lots and lots of free Wizard spells.

That being said, the Thassilonian specialist gets two bonus spells per day instead of the normal one at the cost of banning two schools, so it's a no-brainer for a Wizard.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:37 am

If you don't mind me asking, K, how can a human sorcerer get the maximum spells known without having to set all their feats on fire? I know the alternate racial bonus that gives a human sorcerer an additional spell known every level, and I know of a couple feats that grant additional spells known, but what is there beyond that?

Is it possible to make a sorcerer who can compete with the wizard's mojo this way?

K · Post by K » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:12 am

Archmage Joda wrote:If you don't mind me asking, K, how can a human sorcerer get the maximum spells known without having to set all their feats on fire? I know the alternate racial bonus that gives a human sorcerer an additional spell known every level, and I know of a couple feats that grant additional spells known, but what is there beyond that?

Is it possible to make a sorcerer who can compete with the wizard's mojo this way?

The short answer is "no."

While it's possible to build very powerful Sorcerers with just a few extra spells known per level, a Sorcerer will never compete with a dumpster-diving Wizard. This is why any restrictions at all on Wizard spell acquisition like the DM not leaving around spellbooks or not using enemy wizards is such big nerf to a Wizard.

There are various theoretical builds in 3.X to make super-Sorcerers, but nothing that you'd ever get past a DM.

Various spellpool PrCs like Mage of the Arcane Order are the only real ways to kick a Wizard in the nuts and get a DM to approve it. Wizard spellcasting gets a lot less interesting if a Sorcerer can get a couple of spells off the entire Wizard list each day. Wizard spellcasting utility relies heavily on "that spell we need right now and will never use in this campaign ever again."

andreww · Post by **andreww** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:19 am

Archmage Joda wrote:If you don't mind me asking, K, how can a human sorcerer get the maximum spells known without having to set all their feats on fire? I know the alternate racial bonus that gives a human sorcerer an additional spell known every level, and I know of a couple feats that grant additional spells known, but what is there beyond that?

Is it possible to make a sorcerer who can compete with the wizard's mojo this way?

It is very simple.

Be a Human.
Take the alternate racial bonus for up to 20 extra spells known.
Take the Arcane bloodline.
If you want a lot of skill points grab the Sage wildblood archetype. This allows you to case off Int but you do lose your familiar.
Take the Racial Heritage (Half Elf) feat.
Somewhere between level 6 and 8 pick Paragon Surge as one of your level 3 spells known.
Cast Paragon Surge and choose Expanded Arcana as your feat.

Enjoy access to every spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list including every spell printed in every new splatbook as they come out.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:50 pm

Quick question on the same vein: Would it be worth it to go crossblooded archetype as well, and if so, what bloodline would cross best with sage?

K · Post by K » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:32 pm

Crossblood cuts down on spells known at the cost of getting the best stuff of both bloodlines, so "no." Nothing you cherry-pick from the two bloodlines is so good that it's worth a spell known at each level.

As for Paragon Surge, I'd make sure that you DM agrees that it grants an extra feat. It reads like it counts as an extra feat for the purposes of feats that get bigger bonuses per numbers of a certain class of feat. That'd be weird since Pathfinder doesn't seem to have those kinds of feats like 3.5 does.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:35 am

I apologize for the continued string of questions, but is prestige classing even worth it for sorcerers (although the only one I can think of that I even like the look of is that one in Paths of Prestige centered around illusion-based disguises, that gives a new illusion spell known at every of its 10 levels), or is that shooting myself in the foot.

Also, aside from Wild-blooded, would any other archetypes be worth taking, particularly Tattooed Sorcerer?

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:59 am

If Demoniac is ruled to follow text over table, I endorse taking it. Find someone who doesn't have stupid evil obeisances and enjoy your +6 bullshit cha bonus 1/day, the drawbacks of which you can ignore by casting protection from evil on yourself before the spell ends.

If your DM follows the table you lose a caster level and don't care.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:39 am

Archmage Joda wrote:Also, aside from Wild-blooded, would any other archetypes be worth taking, particularly Tattooed Sorcerer?

Razmiran Priest lets you burn sorcerer spell slots to activate lower-level divine scrolls instead of consuming them starting at level 8.

K · Post by K » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:29 am

PrCing involves losing your bonus spells from human Sorcerer and your bonus spells, feats, and power from your bloodline for those levels.

So no.

As for Archtypes, Razmiran Priest seems crazy good.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:24 am

So basically, PrCing is still not worth it for wizards or sorcerers, Razmiran priest is excellent because of the ability to spend spell slots activating divine spell items.

But what of the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype? It looks interesting, but I would rather not pick something just because of that and end up making a big mistake.

K · Post by K » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:04 am

Well, the Tattooed Sorcerer can eventually convert a spell to a spell-like, but for anything less than Wish or Limited Wish I don't really see the point. It's also only one spell at once per day, and you can't change it until you level, so it's not going to change your life.

At least Razmiran Priest means that you can cast a couple of off-list spells per day of you need to. Even at the cost of buying scrolls and paying higher spell slots to cast, getting the whole cleric spell list to potentially cast from is pretty great. Despite the fact that you'll probably only cherry pick a dozen spells or so, it's a huge amount of versatility.