The Gaming Den

Folks,

Purely as a practical matter, can we be less dickish to new posters? 

Here are three reasons, none of which are me being butthurt that someone said mean things on the internet:

1) It's more convincing. When poor, misguided lambs come here and politely assert stupid, stupid ideas, calmly engaging them is much more likely to get the result you want, whether that result is "lurk more", conversion, or even just a spirited debate (I guess flailing about is more likely to get you trolled; carry on, if that's your goal). That's doubly true if they come here frothing and incoherent: ask yourself, "who would win a debate, Stephen Fry or Fred Phelps?" Fry would. Every time. He could straight up advocate eating babies, and Phelps would make it look like the sane choice. Don't be Fred Phelps. 

2) If you boil the water slowly, the frog doesn't jump out. One of the best arguments for free speech is the whole "marketplace of ideas" thing: there are a bunch of ideas out there floating about; good ones will survive, and bad ones will perish. Rules on speech has a chilling effect on that 'marketplace', slowing or halting that interaction. But, here's the thing: TGD is a tiny sub-market. No-one is forced to come here. If the belligerence is at a level where it discourages new people from coming here, that also has a chilling effect. If new folks' aren't willing to engage here, it doesn't matter how analytical and clever we are. You may like to think of this place as winnowing the wheat from the chaff, but that only works as long as someone is willing to load new chaff in. 

3) It makes it much, much less likely that TGD will have any effect on a mainstream product. Much digital ink has been spilled, for example, on how 5E might be made into a good game, and what things it should/shouldn't have. If I were on the 5E team, I sure wouldn't come here. I'd have better things to do than listen to a resounding, albeit inventive, chorus of "Fuck you!" On top of that, due to point 2, Most of their market doesn't care either. Very often, in my experience, you can either be self-satisfied, or you can get what you want. Not both. Similarly, when we are arguing 13th age sight-unseen, and a publisher drops by offering to provide actual text, the answer shouldn't be cockbarrel.jpg. 

Now, none of that means "be a sycophant." It doesn't even mean "never be a dick." But for the love of God, don't make it your default state. Work your way up to it.

Also, protip: the less frequently you say "Fuck you," the more weight it carries when you do. Don't blow your load too soon.

To this end, maybe we could make a user's post count more prominent and agree on some guidelines for acceptable dickishness. They needn't be long or strict or restrictive, just an agreement that we'll try to not drive off people with only three posts. Shoot down their ideas as much as you want, just make it a constructive experience so they want to come back for more.

Well first off, let's be honest here. What you mean is "to everyone" not "to newbies" because if they stay because we are nice to them, then we start being mean, they will run away.

Secondly, I will only address point 1, because the other two points are statements about being nice for popularity sake, instead of to win arguments.

Stephen Fry would win an argument with Fred Phelps because one of them would construct an argument and the other one would jibber jabber.

This has no application here because the assholes make arguments.

Finally, No.

I will stop saying whatever the fuck I want to say when fbmf bans me for it and not before, so unless your actual request is for new rule that results in bans for telling newbies that their ideas are stupid, you are wasting your damn time.

fectin wrote:Purely as a practical matter, can we be less dickish to new posters?

Not likely.

Here are three reasons, none of which are me being butthurt that someone said mean things on the internet:

And here's why it's not likely: because idiots like you are wrong on the internet. It's "none of which is". None is short for "not one". "One of them is x", "not one of them is x". And I will call you a fuckwad until you learn. And you can be sure the same will happen to everyone who comes here while being wrong.

2) If you boil the water slowly, the frog doesn't jump out.

And who wants to converse with a frog? No seriously, never mind wheat and chaff, I'm basically okay with nobody new joining, and working on getting the current load of idiots to fuck off, leaving maybe ten people here total.

But for the love of God, don't make it your default state. Work your way up to it.

In the words of Jimmy Carr:

This contains a lot of rude language. So if you're offended by it, then for Heaven's sake, don't be a cunt about it.

A lot of the new signons seem to be trolls from elsewhere.
If their purpose is to troll as a 4ree or 1E grog, I don't know what they expect to come of it.

As one of the new members, I shouldn't have expected to do anything. I had a purpose (correct misconceptions), but I'd have probably been more successful purposefully trolling you all.

That said, what is the purpose of TGD? Is it to influence game design? Not fucking likely. Is it to put something excellent on the market? Who the fuck wants to be involved with this place? If it's to circle-jerk and produce something wonderful that no one else sees, I guess good job.

Reg06 wrote:That said, what is the purpose of TGD? Is it to influence game design? Not fucking likely. Is it to put something excellent on the market? Who the fuck wants to be involved with this place?

You could replace 'TGD' with 'any TTRPG forum ever' and that sentence would be just as valid.

No. There is nothing presumptious going on here. We're a bunch of people sitting around talking about TTRPG shit. That's what forums are. A bunch of people talking about shit, usually a specific subset of shit; in this case, TTRPG's, vidyagames, and the like. If you think all discussion must be goal-oriented and directed towards some productive end or it's a pointless circle jerk, your friends must love you.

Some of us actually use the material that this forum produces. The setting-building threads are also a good way to "waste" brain cycles in the same way that reading science fiction or tvtropes is a "waste" of cycles. No goals, just interesting ideas. That all happens better when people aren't too busy insulting each other to produce actual content.

Koumei wrote:And I will call you a fuckwad until you go away.

Fixed it for ya!

Yeah, this went over about as well as I predicted. Mind you, I tried to get the same message across two years ago, and got the same response. It's even still on the front page of this forum.

It was a hilarious read though, Prak, you got to admit that.

I dunno. On the one hand, the forums seem fine the way they are. On the other hand, my perception of "the way they are" is heavily skewed because I have a bunch of people on Ignore. New users won't.

To be clear: I am not advocating for new rules.

Maj wrote:

Koumei wrote:And I will call you a fuckwad until you go away.

Fixed it for ya!

This is against the pseudo rules Maj.

You aren't supposed to quote people and change their quote and say "fixed that."

You are supposed to quote them honestly, and then make an argument that you think the stupid people will leave instead of learn.

Reg06 wrote:If it's to circle-jerk... I guess good job.

This is the Den. We don't circle-jerk. We grudge fuck.

Get it right.

erik wrote:

Reg06 wrote:If it's to circle-jerk... I guess good job.

This is the Den. We don't circle-jerk. We grudge fuck.

Get it right.

I suppose sigg'ing will have to stand in for a Like button.

Oh, and Koumei? You're wrong:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_none_singular_or_plural

I agree with fectin.

I think it is a sign of gross insecurity and a lack of belief in one's ideals then they call anyone who disagrees with them a troll. Especially when the "troll" is not anywhere near as negative, combative, or inflamatory as the poster who labelled them as such.

F*#k you, you stupid f*#king f*#k. That doesn't make me feel better about myself, like I've proven my point, or like I'm more right than I was five minutes ago.

npc310 wrote:I agree with fectin.

I think it is a sign of gross insecurity and a lack of belief in one's ideals then they call anyone who disagrees with them a troll. Especially when the "troll" is not anywhere near as negative, combative, or inflamatory as the poster who labelled them as such.

F*#k you, you stupid f*#king f*#k. That doesn't make me feel better about myself, like I've proven my point, or like I'm more right than I was five minutes ago.

Fuck off, troll.

npc310 wrote:I agree with fectin.

I think it is a sign of gross insecurity and a lack of belief in one's ideals then they call anyone who disagrees with them a troll. Especially when the "troll" is not anywhere near as negative, combative, or inflamatory as the poster who labelled them as such.

F*#k you, you stupid f*#king f*#k. That doesn't make me feel better about myself, like I've proven my point, or like I'm more right than I was five minutes ago.

I'd agree with you, except that the Den is known for insulting people as you prove them wrong. If you don't back up what you're saying with facts, then you get summarily dismissed.

I agree with fectin, purely in the interest of having a community in the first place. A community that can't attract new members will not survive.

Surgo wrote:I agree with fectin, purely in the interest of having a community in the first place. A community that can't attract new members will not survive.

Fact is though, we do attract new members, and some of them even actually post instead of simply lurking. The attitude of the Den isn't something that gets rid of anyone who we actually want on here, and frankly, the less idiot-fellation I have to do while here (and you know exactly who and in which community I am referring to in regards to this, Surgo), the happier I am.

So frankly, rage on Den. Never change. I want you to stay exactly like you are and always were. That's what makes you you, and I wouldn't want it any different.

Mister Sinister wrote:The attitude of the Den isn't something that gets rid of anyone who we actually want on here

Actually, we've driven off a number of good people. Bigode and Ceilingcat come to mind.

As far as to who you're referring to, I actually don't even know.

Surgo wrote:

Mister Sinister wrote:The attitude of the Den isn't something that gets rid of anyone who we actually want on here

Actually, we've driven off a number of good people. Bigode and Ceilingcat come to mind.

As far as to who you're referring to, I actually don't even know.

I don't think it's fair to say that either of those people left because of the Den Attitude.

Maybe Bigode, but only maybe.

I don't even know what happened to Bigode, considering that he did post on here (fairly) recently, but it was very out-of-the-blue. I think it was in response to Dominicius' game thread or something.