Oh, I get it now, Fighters /should/ have spells.

[nockermensch]

Isn't Thor the guy who drank from a magic cup linked to the seas and managed to lower the sea level noticeably by drinking from it? And who raised an animal from the dead with his own magic powers?

Yes. Thor uses resurrection effects to feed his companions by repeatedly killing animals, eating their flesh, and then raising them from their bones. He does this because he apparently has resurrection at-will but doesn't have create food and water. Also because he thinks small.

Then again, which kind of lame god would feed companions by simply multiplying food?

iceburn.gif

[Voss]

Okay voss. . . then how bout anime powers?

What about them? They range from super serious to absurd and back again. 'Anime powers' covers several dozen different genres, and most of them don't overlap well.

Cause as I said before, SOMEONES gonna NOT LIKE X answer....
One of the prolbems is that the fighter class is a generic everyman expected to catch all these concepts that aren't entirely worth of writing a whole classs for.

Except, it isn't, really. The D&D fighter is really fairly narrow, and only really supports heavy armor guy who kills people with weapons. And sometimes archers, though since those are entirely different builds in D&D (for whatever reason) you can't do them effectively simultaneously.

All of those soultions are valid, but there isn't "1" definative solution thats going to solve it when it comes to powersourcing, because there really is MORE than 1 concpet Vying for attention.

So do multiple classes, whatever. If you have multiple concepts, then you should do more than one class. Just because D&D's solution is a terrible one that doesn't work at high levels, it doesn't mean you have to stick with it.

Not directed just as Voss, but all the haters who dislike the notion of a class that uses a weapon as their focus for funneling their powers..

I have no particular problem with a class being all about its super weapon from which they get their powers, so long as it is understood the weapon is bonded to them and it isn't easily separated from them or it is easily resummoned, whatever. It's no worse than that a Wizard relies upon their spellbook to generate spells daily.

Which is something else I think is pretty fucking terrible. I have no problem with 'magic scholar' as a concept. But the idea that the wizard has to spend time masturbating with a book out in the woods to remember the basic shit that saves his life on a daily basis is really fucking dumb.

Just like the idea that you can't take away the PC's toys or you cripple them and make the game unfun is a stupid idea. Gear is a useful thing, but the idea that you can't be useful if you don't have your bag full of shit is a terrible idea.

Look, the basic idea of the D&D fighter is bad, not because of his combat abilities (though some areas could certainly use improvement), but because the D&D fighter is by default barred from doing anything else. If combat music isn't playing, he is useless. Giving the character a Magic Dildo to compensate doesn't fix any of that.

[Midnight_v]

Isn't Thor the guy who drank from a magic cup linked to the seas and managed to lower the sea level noticeably by drinking from it? And who raised an animal from the dead with his own magic powers?

Yes. Thor uses resurrection effects to feed his companions by repeatedly killing animals, eating their flesh, and then raising them from their bones. He does this because he apparently has resurrection at-will but doesn't have create food and water. Also because he thinks small.

Also he seriously wrestles the concept of old age to a stand still. And fishes up Gyrados The World Serpent using only a master rod.

-Username17

I'm sorry which issue was that in? I pretty much thought I was implicit in stating "That guy from the comic books" not "That original guy, who was actually worshiped by vikings"
Right I did end that last post with "In comics".
If there are issues that he's doing that type shit in it isn't 1. Sans hammer 2. Consistent witht he bulk of the writing. So just to be sure that were on the same page now, I posted a link from the wiki as to what was being discussed. (Though point taken about the orginal stories, thx).

@Voss:

So do multiple classes, whatever. If you have multiple concepts, then you should do more than one class

Look, feel free to get started on that. . . let us know when you've got it together so we can shit on your ideas, maybe?



Oh and about the "What about the anime fighter" I mean what about "Tob style design" but even if you had no idea what I meant I spelled out specifically what I was saying as:

You get to do spell like things through martial "not magic" powers then?

So either you stopped reading or you're just enjoying wanking at your superior intellect on the matter.
I'm going to use that term "anime" because I know its wrong enough piss of assholes, but recognizable enough that people who saw all the grognard assholes compalain about "you got anime in my d&d" know I'm refering to Wuxia style shennanigans" and fuck you.

...at least untill you give your example of how it "Should be".

Edit: Frank said a theoretical class like this would model people like "Aladdin, and Artur" who are just regular dudes with extrodinary weapons. I realize this model does could contain those people's stories too. The thing is this is the SUPPOSED to be the codification of those types of things. Dm pity weapon is a hidden class feature, so actually putting that choice in the players hands is a good thing, imho, comparted to the alternative.

[Voss]

Considering this thread has actually spent pages specifically referencing Kenpachi from Bleach [as opposed to Gourry from Slayers, who is far more in line with what you're talking about, as his magical artifact is literally his only thing] as well as marvel-comics-only-Thor, it didn't seem out of line at all.


But feel free to get butt-hurt because your 30 year old solution to 'the fighter problem' is getting rejected as the same pile of shit that it ever was.

[Whipstitch]

I'm sorry which issue was that in? I pretty much thought I was implicit in stating "That guy from the comic books" not "That original guy, who was actually worshiped by vikings"

Sorry guy, but you don't get to unilaterally dictate that the source material for the comics isn't interesting or worth discussing particularly since a fair number of people think that comic Thor is actually kinda lame and is basically some dude whose dad has a nice tree.

[Username17]

Comics Thor is a lame doctor who uses the hammer to transform into Thor: the God of Thunder. And I mean "lame" in the traditional sense of actually walking with a limp. He is literally a crippled dude with no mojo at all until he hits Mjolnir against a rock.

However, once he is Thor, he is able to view things travelling faster than light, break bricks with his tongue, and control the weather with or without the hammer (the hammer enhances his weather control powers, it does not provide them).

To my knowledge, Comics Thor doesn't raise the dead in order to eat more goat pies. But there have been hundreds of Thor issues, maybe he does.

-Username17

[Sashi]

Look, the basic idea of the D&D fighter is bad, not because of his combat abilities (though some areas could certainly use improvement), but because the D&D fighter is by default barred from doing anything else. If combat music isn't playing, he is useless. Giving the character a Magic Dildo to compensate doesn't fix any of that.

It's at this point that I realize the majority of the people arguing that "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things" are just being negative for the sake of beating up on the Fighter. Perhaps you get some kind of catharsis out of it, perhaps you're just addicted to indignation.

There are two separate problems with the Fighter.

1) Irrelevance in the high level combat minigame. Fixing this is exceptionally easy. You simply make it so that victory through punching people in the dick isn't mutually exclusive with victory through casting spells on people. That's it. The Wizard actually will cast Fly on the Fighter so he can fly up and punch the Balor in the dick if punches to the dick makes the Wizard's spells more effective. Currently the Wizard doesn't care about this, all he cares about is that the Balor fail its save vs. Dismissal before the Wizard fails his save vs. Implosion. And that's sad. You could also "tune" the math so that the Wizard can't survive the implosion effect unless the Balor spends a number of rounds running away from the flying fighter. Even if the party would be technically better off if it was two Wizards and one of them spent a round summoning a Hound Archon or something, you've at least made it so that the fighter punching the Balor in the dick isn't irrelevant.

2) Inability to contribute to the narrative. This is the real problem. This is the part that's not easy. And the reason is entirely because it makes people feel oogy when a game effect directly touches the Narrative.

Here's the Discern Location spell:

A discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.

To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it. To find an object, you must have touched it at least once.

That spell has indirect control of the narrative because if the DM wants to prevent you from using Discern Location on a Balor he has to twist the narrative and suddenly the Balor has a high-level Sorcerer following him around casting Mind Blank or a the Balor has caught the eye of a Deity. This one spell has indirectly caused a character to be inserted into the narrative ("High Level Caster who is willing to Mind Blank the Balor") or caused a Deity to get involved.

Let's compare this with a "martial spell" I just made up:

An Extraplanar Spy Network is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a Gigantic Bribe or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Extraplanar Spy Network circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The Extraplanar Spy Network reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.

To find a creature with the Extraplanar Spy Network, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it. To find an object, you must have touched it at least once.

The function of the effect is exactly the same. The only difference is that instead of magically masturbating until I affect the narrative, I have directly affected the narrative by declaring "Behold there is an Extraplanar Spy Network and they owe me a favor." Which, as I said, makes people feel Oogy.

[Midnight_v]

Comics Thor is a lame doctor who uses the hammer to transform into Thor: the God of Thunder. And I mean "lame" in the traditional sense of actually walking with a limp. He is literally a crippled dude with no mojo at all until he hits Mjolnir against a rock.

However, once he is Thor, he is able to view things travelling faster than light, break bricks with his tongue, and control the weather with or without the hammer (the hammer enhances his weather control powers, it does not provide them).

To my knowledge, Comics Thor doesn't raise the dead in order to eat more goat pies. But there have been hundreds of Thor issues, maybe he does.

-Username17

Right. There are over 700 issues or so that may have happened once or twice but those are outliers by far, Frank, but that is a funny thought.
Moving on. Without bogging down the concept too much, it doesn't take donald blake. Captain America is worthy, so is Migel O'hara, and a list of other people. Beta Ray bill aparently pwns thor when he picks up the hammer and DOES'T become "THOR" pretty much none of the other people literally become "Thor" asfaik, they do however get the power to control lightning. It actually says it right on the hammer "Whosoever poesses this hammer, if he be worth shall posses the power of thor" . .
though frankly this is getting irrelavant.

In this model you're a fighter, just like all the other classes in the game you get reality altering powers. Mages get it though spellbooks, Clerics get it from god. You get it from mastering the harmony between you, your blade, and reality. You gain it from victories over others, and general asskicking. The weapon and armor you wield serve a a focus for this awesome power you posses. It is nigh impossible to be separate from you 1 because you can call it to your waiting hand, and 2. becuse worse than worthless to other people, its dangerous, while never truly sentient, it will use the power of your bond to lash out at potential thieves and alerting you to the attempt.

So at level 1 you're a fighter at level 2 you're a fighter at level 3 you get to start manipulating reality with via channeling your personal power throught your greataxe or whatever, this doesnt' stop you from getting the ability to kick more ass, it simply allows you to kick ass across amultitue more situations.

I'm sorry which issue was that in? I pretty much thought I was implicit in stating "That guy from the comic books" not "That original guy, who was actually worshiped by vikings"

Sorry guy, but you don't get to unilaterally dictate that the source material for the comics isn't interesting or worth discussing particularly since a fair number of people think that comic Thor is actually kinda lame and is basically some dude whose dad has a nice tree.

Yeah, "bro" you are pretty sorry, I hope someone fucks you up the ass with fresh brick. I'm pretty sure its okay for me to define what "I'M" refering to regardless of your shitty opinoins.

[Whipstitch]

It's really, really weird seeing someone arguing for the version whose lifestory is just one continuous string of DM dickery, but alright.

[OgreBattle]

Who exactly is the audience for your 'fixed, able to compete vs wizard' Fighter though?

D&D fans already have a fixed fighter, it's the Pathfinder Fighter, because they are dumb enough to find enjoyment in a broken game. The majority of people who roll d20's with their friends are not aware of wish economies, and think it's really rad their fighter has an awesome artifact sword acquired when they slayed the ____.
And the people who do vocally talk about balanced, they play the D&D edition you don't even consider it D&D.

So who is the audience for the 'balanced Fighter'?

[Midnight_v]

Who exactly is the audience for your 'fixed, able to compete vs wizard' Fighter though?

D&D fans already have a fixed fighter, it's the Pathfinder Fighter, because they are dumb enough to find enjoyment in a broken game. The majority of people who roll d20's with their friends are not aware of wish economies, and think it's really rad their fighter has an awesome artifact sword acquired when they slayed the ____.
And the people who do vocally talk about balanced, they play the D&D edition you don't even consider it D&D.

So who is the audience for the 'balanced Fighter'?

!

-for science
Are you a D&D fan happily playing with the pathfinder fighter, "OgreBattle"?

If so, I understand you a lot better now.

If not then I don't understand your protest. You know you're at the gaming den, you have 400+ post so you know this is what goes on here. So... let say all this is just den wankery as you say, you're here tugging it just as hard, just as frequently. So I'm sure you have some insight as to what this is all about.

And the people who do vocally talk about balanced, they play the D&D edition you don't even consider it D&D

At this point you're just venting, cause I don't even know what you're talking about or... or you're not talking to me at all but to the den in general.
I can't answer for the den in general but for me I'll actually use these things in game when/if they get developed fully, but this is a sounding board if nothing else. Further, its one of the most brutal kinds, no pleasantries, no hand holding, the den generally tells it like it is. If you have a strong idea and you want to defend it you'll get every possible assault on it right here. If there's a flaw in something you want to implement, you'll find it right here. It's the fucking honest intervention bitch slap from your best friend, and life near the cutting room floor." So you can find out whats good and whats bad here, once you figure out how to get past the people to whom "NOTHING" is good. I'd rather deal with them than the opposite, undiscerning people who don't understand bad from good.

[Voss]

Look, the basic idea of the D&D fighter is bad, not because of his combat abilities (though some areas could certainly use improvement), but because the D&D fighter is by default barred from doing anything else. If combat music isn't playing, he is useless. Giving the character a Magic Dildo to compensate doesn't fix any of that.

It's at this point that I realize the majority of the people arguing that "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things" are just being negative for the sake of beating up on the Fighter. Perhaps you get some kind of catharsis out of it, perhaps you're just addicted to indignation.

Try again (and read again, since we are mostly arguing the exact same thing, based on your #1 and #2). I actually want a viable version of 'Sword Guy.' I just want a viable version that can actually participate in the parts of the game that aren't combat. Artifact Sword is the same sort of crutch that people have been pulling out of their ass for years, and still doesn't do anything to fix the real problems. Codifying it as a class feature _does nothing good_. Just like the pathfinder fighter (but moar bonuses is better!), it is a bad fix disguised as something meaningful.

[Midnight_v]

Look, the basic idea of the D&D fighter is bad, not because of his combat abilities (though some areas could certainly use improvement), but because the D&D fighter is by default barred from doing anything else. If combat music isn't playing, he is useless. Giving the character a Magic Dildo to compensate doesn't fix any of that.

It's at this point that I realize the majority of the people arguing that "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things" are just being negative for the sake of beating up on the Fighter. Perhaps you get some kind of catharsis out of it, perhaps you're just addicted to indignation.

Try again (and read again, since we are mostly arguing the exact same thing, based on your #1 and #2). I actually want a viable version of 'Sword Guy.' I just want a viable version that can actually participate in the parts of the game that aren't combat. Artifact Sword is the same sort of crutch that people have been pulling out of their ass for years, and still doesn't do anything to fix the real problems. Codifying it as a class feature _does nothing good_. Just like the pathfinder fighter (but moar bonuses is better!), it is a bad fix disguised as something meaningful.

And my question to you is, give an example of

I just want a viable version that can actually participate in the parts of the game that aren't combat.

Or something that you think comes close to what you're describing.

What part of the games are you talking about? Skill tests? Fucking, disease curing? Specifics?

[Voss]

It's at this point that I realize the majority of the people arguing that "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things" are just being negative for the sake of beating up on the Fighter. Perhaps you get some kind of catharsis out of it, perhaps you're just addicted to indignation.

Try again (and read again, since we are mostly arguing the exact same thing, based on your #1 and #2). I actually want a viable version of 'Sword Guy.' I just want a viable version that can actually participate in the parts of the game that aren't combat. Artifact Sword is the same sort of crutch that people have been pulling out of their ass for years, and still doesn't do anything to fix the real problems. Codifying it as a class feature _does nothing good_. Just like the pathfinder fighter (but moar bonuses is better!), it is a bad fix disguised as something meaningful.

And my question to you is, give an example of

I just want a viable version that can actually participate in the parts of the game that aren't combat.

Or something that you think comes close to what you're describing.

What part of the games are you talking about? Skill tests? Fucking, disease curing? Specifics?

Anything. At all.

If you want a martial character done fairly well, look at the street sam from Shadowrun. Apart from the astral nonsense (though you can actually put together something that does this, if badly), the street sam isn't kicked out of the rest of the game. Sneaking, negotiating, shopping, info gathering, getting gear, transportation, whatever.

He gets to play, unless you're a shitty Shadowrun GM and run hour+ extended Astral Quests and individual Decking sessions for one player while everyone else sits around the table. No one has to fanwank 'channeling reality through his sword' or whatever that bullshit is; he is a full participant in the fucking game from the ground up.

[Midnight_v]

Doesn't the Tome Fighter do those same things as well? 6 x skill points you could make one who's allowed to do all of the things you describe as well as anyone else from the ground up as you say?
"Sneaking, negotiating, shopping, info gathering, getting gear, transportation, whatever." all being a function of having more skill points.

...and the fanwanking thing is opinionated bullshit, but still whatever.

[Sashi]

Try again (and read again, since we are mostly arguing the exact same thing, based on your #1 and #2). I actually want a viable version of 'Sword Guy.' I just want a viable version that can actually participate in the parts of the game that aren't combat. Artifact Sword is the same sort of crutch that people have been pulling out of their ass for years, and still doesn't do anything to fix the real problems. Codifying it as a class feature _does nothing good_. Just like the pathfinder fighter (but moar bonuses is better!), it is a bad fix disguised as something meaningful.

Sorry, I went on a slight tangent and forgot to re-read your post before I submitted mine. So I didn't directly respond to your point, I should have.

It's actually OK to give fighters magical dildos they use to overcome challenges as long as the fighter himself can overcome some challenges. The problem with the 3E fighter as he is has nothing to do with reliance on magic items, it's that the fighter doesn't get to participate in the narrative.

Compared to fixing the narrative issue, combat is easy to fix and it's perfectly valid to give Fighters magic dildos that let them teleport or shoot rays of fire. The fact that people tend to not give these items to fighters in favor of +10 artifact swords and stupid enemies that duke it out on the ground when they could be flying and invisible is worrysome but we're not talking about handing Alladin's lamp to a commoner and calling that "fighter". Ideally a 20th level fighter should be able to punch an elephant to death while naked, and then if he needs to put on Winged Cloak and strap a Third Eye Gem to his forehead so he can fly up and punch the flying invisible Balor in the dick that's OK. It's not ideal, but it's OK. That's just optimum performance in the combat minigame. Nobody seems to complain about Wizards getting crushed by Dragons Wearing Antimagic Fields. Most Wizards are frighteningly easy to kill if you manage to bypass the "stand there and trade SoD's" combat style but nobody really complains that without spellcasting Wizards are just monkies because variations in the combat minigame have nothing to do with why Wizard>>>Fighter.

What's not OK is that the fighter doesn't get to participate in the narrative. After he punches the Balor in the dick he has to just stand around while the wizard and cleric cast divination spells and try to figure out why the Balor attacked them. And the reason behind this is that while the Wizard casting Overland Flight, the Rogue negotiating transport on an airship, and the Fighter lassoing a Sky Whale for everyone to ride have precisely the same result (the party flies from point A to point B) they require different levels of control over the game setting and events (the Wizard needs almost none, the Rogue needs to create an Airship service to negotiate with, and the Fighter needs to create Sky Whales and be able to declare that one is flying by right now).

[Whipstitch]

Street Samurai are an exception that proves the rule when it comes to viable "martial" characters. Relying on your skills, attributes and over-the-counter equipment is much less onerous when Skill/attribute rolls are seriously the primary mechanic and you can buy jetpacks and VTOL hunter-killers. Even then, the most important part is that magic is nerfed sufficiently that there's no personal teleportation or complex object conjuration.

Oh, and I used scare quotes because optimized street samurai have a funny tendency to look more like rogues more than anything else.

[K]

Nobody seems to complain about Wizards getting crushed by Dragons Wearing Antimagic Fields.

It's a funny comic, but Forcecages are "as Wall of Force" and those are not affected by AMFs.

GitP hasn't been able to do a coherent comic about rules since the Nifty Board exodus.

[LR]

Nobody seems to complain about Wizards getting crushed by Dragons Wearing Antimagic Fields.

Ignoring the fact that Forcecage ignores AMFs, attacking a wizard in melee like that is a good way to sent to a place that's like the beach, but not the moon.

[OgreBattle]

I can't answer for the den in general but for me I'll actually use these things in game when/if they get developed fully, but this is a sounding board if nothing else.

General question to anyone in the thread, but mainly responding to the comment
"but Grognards won't like idea X/Y/Z!" as they already have things they like that are dumb.

Oh, and I used scare quotes because optimized street samurai have a funny tendency to look more like rogues more than anything else.

In the sense that they sneak around and hit something really hard when its not looking?

Maybe Fighter and Rogue should just be the same class? It does seem strange to be comparing them to the omni-competent Wizard.

[DSMatticus]

Maybe Fighter and Rogue should just be the same class? It does seem strange to be comparing them to the omni-competent Wizard.

The wizard really does need tore into several distinct pieces, and the fighter really needs to pick up something that is not more fighting. Just at a conceptual level.

You could probably do a Lord class that has the fighting shtick of the fighter and throw in some social abilities, and he suddenly becomes a face via authority. Even use it as the basis for some combat debuffs/buffs. Just anything to expand the concept from "sword now, sword forever." And of course, at high levels it really does need to pick up non-mundane awesome from somewhere if he's competing with caster awesome.

[Username17]

Maybe Fighter and Rogue should just be the same class? It does seem strange to be comparing them to the omni-competent Wizard.

The Rogue and the Fighter have no business being different classes. All the fantasy heroes worthy of the name have "rogue" abilities. Conan finds and disables traps. Hell, even Prince Phillip does a fair amount of sneaking around Forbidden Mountain. The harsh reality is that the Rogue class does a lot of fictional characters reasonably well (Aladdin, Will Scarlet, Prince Thadeous), but the "Fighter" doesn't do any characters well except for "Mook #3".

The wizard really does need tore into several distinct pieces, and the fighter really needs to pick up something that is not more fighting. Just at a conceptual level.

No argument there.

You could probably do a Lord class that has the fighting shtick of the fighter and throw in some social abilities, and he suddenly becomes a face via authority. Even use it as the basis for some combat debuffs/buffs. Just anything to expand the concept from "sword now, sword forever." And of course, at high levels it really does need to pick up non-mundane awesome from somewhere if he's competing with caster awesome.

Sure. "Lord" is a shtick with some legs. Diplomacy automatically scales in importance to whatever level your adventures take place on ("convince the mayor to lend assistance" segues seamlessly into "convince the genie sultan to lend assistance"), and "has a bunch of tiny men" and "provides buffs to allies" are things that could plausibly matter when there are enough enemy Orcs to qualify as a "throng".

I wouldn't be unhappy with the prospect of removing the Fighter entirely and replacing him with the Warlord.

-Username17

[ishy]

Midnight, isn't your awesome idea for the fighter, just handing the fighter the book Magic of Incarnum? (though you probably want to clean up the names / mechanics)

[Aryxbez]

Ah...good ol Midnight_v...interesting posts on your part, feel I've much to respond to, whether it'll be useful or clearly communicated, not entirely sure.

Aryxbez for instance feels like this is unsatysfiying cause he wants the powers to come from the fighter. I know for a fact that someone out there is going to be like "wtf? So now the fighter casts spells", blah blah bla. . .

Damn right I do, imagine not the only one who wants their fighter types power source to be from pure Bad@$$ry, than because he welded together some Power Armor. Given I like power armor, and the Doom Guy, totally low level fighter all about using some swag (and.."other" enhancements) to murder his way through hell, all the same, swag more or less "made" that character's survivability. Well, although that works, type of weapon and its aesthetics matter at low levels, later on that minuscule details tends to matter less and less. Making the fighter being awesome only because of signature gear, isn't all that empowering, since it's the suit that makes you cool, not your mighty warrior skills itself.

I'm all for a Gadgeteer class, I'd have no problems with it at all, quite the opposite, just not something that should be the set standard for Fighter type characters. Hell, it can even be one of the character options for the Fighter class, one Iron Man, other Charles Atlas Superpowers, hell yeah! I can also see from what you listed, you seem to hate "Transcendent", although I'm fine with high level warriors being like Mace Windu, Kratos, or Asura of Asura's Wrath, high level fighters will certainly have absurd abilities, and that's okay (doesn't mean he has to be immune to all damage, either).

Oddly enough your comment on Tome Knight is a philosophy felt towards class designs these days. That base classes should just be 1-10 levels, and Prestige, just 3-5 levels. That way get the Juicy bits faster, might even get to some of the desired abilities before the game ends (after all, most campaigns don't last past a couple levels or so).

Find the term "anime" refer to power level little silly, especially since Western mythologies been rocking that crap for way long prior.

if we're gonna talk Marvel comics, Asgardians alone have great base intereaction unlike that of the fighter in their Super Strength:

The gods possess superhuman abilities such as super strength and superhuman endurance. An average male god can lift up to 30 tons while an average female can lift up to 25 tons, but there are those that exceed these specifications.

From: http://marvel.com/universe/Asgardians

General question to anyone in the thread, but mainly responding to the comment
"but Grognards won't like idea X/Y/Z!" as they already have things they like that are dumb.

Maybe Fighter and Rogue should just be the same class? It does seem strange to be comparing them to the omni-competent Wizard.

Ya know, as Midnight_v indicated earlier, to hell with these "grognards", if even super swag swords won't make them happy, then to hell with em. Just make fighter types super awesome, level appropriate and move on, I'm sure people accept it well enough when they realize they'll be able to finally make the martial character they've always imagined. As it's apparently evident they'll only buy outdated material for their likely outdated houserules anyway.

I recall Frank had mentioned this in some thread(s) (including now) awhile back, how the Fighter archtype is really just a less skilled Rogue. Frank/K Tome "Book of War" I believe even pointed out how Conan is a Rogue even (even if he's bit more str/con based).

You could probably do a Lord class that has the fighting shtick of the fighter and throw in some social abilities, and he suddenly becomes a face via authority. Even use it as the basis for some combat debuffs/buffs. Just anything to expand the concept from "sword now, sword forever." And of course, at high levels it really does need to pick up non-mundane awesome from somewhere if he's competing with caster awesome.

Agreed on the Casters getting the split or otherwise a general depowering, it's one of the sane solutions going forward (that said, they should still be capable of super awesome magic-ry though). I kinda like that idea, "Lord" class sorta reminds me of Fire Emblem, which main characters over time were different, so had light armored swordsman, to even a heavy armored (game breaking) axeman. It certainly even fits some legacy part of D&D as well. Could even just stick it as a ten level class, where having an army of griffon/Dragon riders just isn't a big enough deal anymore.

Also he seriously wrestles the concept of old age to a stand still. And fishes up Gyrados The World Serpent using only a master rod.

That's truly quite awesome, in fact, perhaps "epic" as more fitting for both kind of D&D adventure and its true meaning. I wonder how one would write up a High level PC wrestling a concept, just a really high DC/TN, Extended Test/Skill Challenge? Would the concept have HP and junk like any other monster?

Oh, and Might & Magic just got interesting to me, so I thank Frank for pointing that out, as I think I like old 70-80's Fantasy...

Doh, took too long to Post, Frank probably said it better than I did on Warlord being the new fighter, sounds like it'd be a pretty damn cool new fighter, if not just make it one one of the character options for the Fighter to be.

[ishy]

Spoilered because it is off topic:

if we're gonna talk Marvel comics, Asgardians alone have great base intereaction unlike that of the fighter in their Super Strength:

(...) An average male god can lift up to 30 tons while an average female can lift up to 25 tons, but there are those that exceed these specifications.

From: http://marvel.com/universe/Asgardians

I like the little fuck you, men are better than women part.