Oh, I get it now, Fighters /should/ have spells.

[erik]

Why are people allowed to pretend that it's okay for class to be called Fighter?

Momentum. If there wasn't umpty years of history of "Fighter" then we'd all feel extremely stupid using it as a reference label. Sometimes I am compelled to change it to any other synonym just because it makes me feel more stupid by association (hell, in my 2nd post I did just that, went back and changed it to warrior before hitting "Submit"... but not my first post since I was referencing the thread title)


[edited in kaelik's quote since I wound up on a different page than the post I was replying to. hate that.]

[Chamomile]

The problem is that the easiest synonym, warrior, is already gobbled up as an even worse class.

[Kaelik]

The problem is that the easiest synonym, warrior, is already gobbled up as an even worse class.

Why are idiots allowed to pretend that it's okay for a class to be called Warrior?

[Chamomile]

You can call a class The Mundane and give it magical spells that rewrite reality and no TTRPG police will arrest you. If you want a class that uses his magical sword to cut reality into whatever neat little pieces he wants, you can call it a Fighter and the only real disadvantage this has is that people already have a strong association of what Fighters mean in TTRPGs and it doesn't involve swording reality in half.

[Username17]

The problem is that the easiest synonym, warrior, is already gobbled up as an even worse class.

Why are idiots allowed to pretend that it's okay for a class to be called Warrior?

Because unlike "fighter", when you image search the word "warrior" you get characters who can see the future, raise the dead, move things with their minds, teleport, transform into a beast, regenerate wounds, and reverse time. All on the first page.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

You can call a class The Mundane and give it magical spells that rewrite reality and no TTRPG police will arrest you. If you want a class that uses his magical sword to cut reality into whatever neat little pieces he wants, you can call it a Fighter and the only real disadvantage this has is that people already have a strong association of what Fighters mean in TTRPGs and it doesn't involve swording reality in half.

I realize that there are no RPG police that will actually arrest you for naming something an obviously disingenuous name, but to compare the name Fighter to any class worth playing as being the name Mundane to a spellcaster is exactly the point.

Fighter is not an acceptable name for a class because everyone gets to fight, and everyone needs to do things that aren't fighting. A class called fighter doesn't have an obvious second thing, and implies it should be better at the first thing.

It is therefore completely unacceptable because it does not create any distinction between it and any other class.

For the same reasons Warrior, Adventurer, and Hero are not acceptable class names for a system that has more than 2 classes.

[Sashi]

As long as you do it with "-street", then the most powerful result on the first page is an airplane.

[Avoraciopoctules]

As long as you do it with "-street", then the most powerful result on the first page is an airplane.

Are you proposing a Street Fighter character class? Because I'm not sure I'm down with that unless the MC tries to run a World of Darkness game.

[tussock]

A 200' foot high run has got to be about ... well, it's +30 or so to a skill all day, so maybe 2nd level.

1st level, Move increase, like a Monk +10.
2nd level, spring attack (with more attacks at higher character levels).
3rd level, Whirlwind seems fine, give or take, standard action eventually.
4th level, natural armour and fast healing and extra reach (scales by level).
5th level, Free action? Entangling reach, no save?
6th level, You shall not pass? (no one can enter your reach when defensive).
7th level, Personal anti-magic field (pfft, spells and such aren't real).

Not much of a team player, but should be reasonably good in battle aside from a couple of obvious counters. I don't really care about planar travel like some around these parts because it's all a plot point anyway.

[Username17]

A 200' foot high run has got to be about ... well, it's +30 or so to a skill all day, so maybe 2nd level.

1st level, Move increase, like a Monk +10.
2nd level, spring attack (with more attacks at higher character levels).
3rd level, Whirlwind seems fine, give or take, standard action eventually.
4th level, natural armour and fast healing and extra reach (scales by level).
5th level, Free action? Entangling reach, no save?
6th level, You shall not pass? (no one can enter your reach when defensive).
7th level, Personal anti-magic field (pfft, spells and such aren't real).

Not much of a team player, but should be reasonably good in battle aside from a couple of obvious counters. I don't really care about planar travel like some around these parts because it's all a plot point anyway.

And this does... what exactly? You haven't explained at all how this would in any way allow them to solve any problems outside combat (indeed, you are explicitly defaulting on that responsibility by leaving it to "the plot" or perhaps more accurately "the DM" to solve all those pesky out-of-combat problems without any real actions on the protagonist's part - Harry Potter style). And even within the context of combat, you haven't given the character any actual way to win fights. Sure, he's protected from some stuff, he can look at a Medusa and not die, for example. But he can't do shit to a Hill Giant or a Harpy Archer.

He moves at moderate speed, suppresses magic, and has a very sticky reach. Honestly, who gives a fuck? What does he actually do that makes the party win? You've made a character that solves zero problems out of combat and zero problems in combat. He's just a piece of favorable terrain the rest of the party can drag along with them.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

For the same reasons Warrior, Adventurer, and Hero are not acceptable class names for a system that has more than 2 classes.

The problem with very specific class names is that they come with a lot of thematic baggage that may or may not fit the character I am envisioning. Fighter is so vague that pretty much any character I come up with will fit, whereas if the warrior options are Berserker, Samurai and Soldier those might have connotations that don't gel with my character concept.

I'm not overly in favour of Fighter as a class name, however I do think that having a balance between classes that represent a specific character type and those that can be made to fit more character types is a good idea.

[Midnight_v]

Been reading this and a million other threads just like it... not to mention the *"New Tome" thread on the front page for years now. That beings said the collective "fuck vanilla action hero" thing is an annoyance, and "Martial Magic" is an anoyance to **assholes however there are enough assholes that we actually can't get away with ignoring them... "yet" and they teach those asshole ways to anyone who'll listen as best they can so ymmv for the long term.

Still, let me entertain the idea that we generally dismiss here because... well why the fuck should we bother, I think is the prevailing thought, I know its been mine, but fuck I'm bored so let me chunk this dart.

For Tussocks sake, "lets just nerf all the spells":

First, why? ( cause thats fucking stupid Midnight_v!) Cause while there are many interesting things that can be done to make the fighter/Soilder/Hero/VAH better... Unlimited Magic says "fuck all" to anything they can do period. That is really just a shit idea.
Full Caster in many ways is playing "God Mod Sue" and why should ANYONE get to do that? Monsters included.

Second, how the fuck would we do that. Honestly, I'm not sure any of the ways of doing so would be very effective or good but I do remember in a party with a Dm in the transition from 2nd to 3rd who never let Illusion "work" because looking at the illusions gave a chance to roll to disbelieve... At the time the Illusionist was like then the dm was all like and we went on without the illusionist (I should have left then but still...)

So here's a quick starter rule or 2 to really make the magic situation more tenable in D&D. Magic is not abso-fucking-lutely magic realtering powers. Some of it is but most of it is not, most of its Vodoo fucking magic, that can't get you unless you believe.

Rule 1: All Magic Spells that has Saving throw: Fuck you, is now Saving Throw: "I don't believe this shit a.k.a." "Will"
That fucks force cage and all those other fuck you spells right out.
Blasphemy for instance, cannot exist. Further, this makes some wonky interactions here and there like summoned critters not being able to affect people make the save, but permanent undead still ruin your weekend get away's and thats fine, Necromancers are badass muthafuckers.
Collary to rule 1: Any Spell that says "Made your save?: Look baby just let me stick the tip in" gains the same thing. You can ignore secondary effects of spells as well, make the will save.

Rule2: Spells that are measured in more than rounds become, 1 minute + Concentration + 1 round . So yeah you can fly buuuutt.. that thing where you stand in the air and rain death down? Nope. Fuck you.
This keeps wizards doing traditional things like riding broomsticks and having flying carpets and the suck, just like mundanes. NOT Completely but quite a bit.

Rule 3: There isn't one but there are going to be problems with this approach, but honestly there's problems with the way it "FUCKING IS" when appling things to D&D always are but you see whats meant to happen there dumbshit, get to figuring things out.

* New Tome - Eat Shit Kaelik
**grognards, though there are progressivist assholes like the above mentioned.

Edit: Also... All DC's Have to be level capped, I hate Video games for putting that in my head, but there there has to be a numerical based limited on how high the MAX SAVE at a given level will be.
That's arbitrary, but it keeps people from putting all stats into 1 casting to increase dc's. Thats shitty in some ways but it might have the result of having more diverse characters stat wise if stats are to matter out side of casting stats.

All that being said, you STILL need to fix the fighter(S) out there like the guy above who wrote about the berserker. Let me think about it. I'd been thinking about the soldier calls anyway, on of the things it shuold do at base is "Not get fucked by the enviornment". . . so there's that.

[erik]

First) I don't mind nerfing spells to some extent. For example, I think long distance Teleports should happen through portals that take some time to stabilize, thus giving warning and not being a simple scry and die engine. Force cage/wall etc. don't need to be explicitly invincible. Death No Save spells are obviously not acceptable.

Second) It's not that illusion needs nerfing so much as it needs solid rules that are easily adjudicated. As for Magic being powers of suggestion/voodoo rather than reality altering stuff (my attempted translation of Magic = "magic realtering powers"). Bullshit. That's good for some settings especially a modern type where you have tech shite that may be in some ways superior to magic and the setting does not call for magic to be a well known big deal, but it's shit for D&D. Magic totally is reality altering in D&D settings. Can't get around that.

Rule 1) Yes, spells should give some ability to resist them within reason.

You cannot very well resist that someone called a Demon over for tea and ass kickings. Nor can you very well by default resist that a giant stone wall was created in your general vicinity. You certainly should not be able to disbelieve all spells because you get stupid bullshit.

You could have your own mojo to banish, dispel or whatever, but that's an active response. Yes, you mentioned that it is wonky to save vs. a summoning, and noting that there is a problem is a good first sign that this is not a good blanket rule.

Rule 2) There are likely spells with >1 min durations that concentration is not the answer for. Or concentration will need recalibration (say a -X penalty to actions, and -Y penalty to perception), along with a rising amount of spells that you can concentrate on at once as you become more skilled, perhaps with diminishing penalties.

I don't necessarily mind the default being wizards and everyone riding things instead of floating, but the difference is flavor. If you're flying on a griffon, carpet or airship, you're still flying without personal drain or concentration. So your fix isn't really fixing much. This fix appears to be a broad swipe but specifically aimed at flight. Why not just specifically change only flight?

[Sashi]

As long as you do it with "-street", then the most powerful result on the first page is an airplane.

Are you proposing a Street Fighter character class? Because I'm not sure I'm down with that unless the MC tries to run a World of Darkness game.

I just meant doing a Google Image Search for "Fighter" gives you six pages of Street Fighter art, including characters who can fly, teleport, control minds, summon shadow-clones, shoot energy from their hands/feet/head, heal themselves, etc.

[sake]

Oh goddamit, it's bad enough the game already tries to make a difference between an element and the magic version of the element, and we have such silliness as giant exploding balls of fire that don't have any form of concussive force nor ignite any flammable objects it hits. Must we drag the "I don't believe in it, therefore this actual physical hunk of matter/liquid/energy/plasma can't harm me" crap into it as well? Not to mention the amount of bullshit semantics arguments it would lead to. "Oh, well Earthsmash's text says it conjures a magical boulder to crush the target, so yes that should apply, but I actually used Rocky Spike which explictly states I direct a spike made out of rock to launch from the ground... which means it was a naturally occurring object and shouldn't be subjected to a Saving Throw: I don't believe this shit roll"

[UmaroVI]

The idea that you have to nerf the bejeezus out of D&D magic as a starting point to making anything that anyone will recognize as belonging to the same conceptual space as the D&D fighter work is pretty much correct. I just doubt that you can actually do that in any way that isn't more work than just writing an entirely new RPG from scratch.

[ishy]

I thought it was well established that you need to nerf the crap out of D&D magic to make anything work in D&D.

Isn't that why we have things like limits on wish in Tome?

[Midnight_v]

First as of right now this thread seems extra large on my screen and I don't know why. Annoying.
Let me start with the relavant bits.

You certainly should not be able to disbelieve all spells because you get stupid bullshit.

In this model of D&D we acknowledge right out the box that SPELLS are stupid bullshit. So were cutting the balls off them, to give other motherfuckers a chance. Period.

You cannot very well resist that someone called a Demon over for tea and ass kickings.

Shadow Conjuration. In this model all summoning is something akin to shadow conjuration. So you can summon a "bit of demon" from the nether or whatever the fuck but the thing where you Gate in solars? Fuck that. Fuck that shit forever. You can't have that. We can't have that. We can't have that shit at all and expect to get anywhere. So yeah summonings only get as far as shadow conjuration in power.

Nor can you very well by default resist that a giant stone wall was created in your general vicinity.

Again... not amazingly conjuration.
Under this model you totally can just walk/bust/slide through this summoning. Cause I don't believe this shit.

Magic totally is reality altering in D&D settings. Can't get around that.

Bullshit.

Thats a part of the problem. Until you address the fundamental power of magic in D&D no on else will ever be able to play.
Since we're talking theoreticals, we're talking that some spells get fucking saving throws, and some don't and when a Saving Throw: Fuck you; spell exists. You give it a fucking saving throw.
Spell that naturally have saving throws are fine, but you need to keep them on the fucking RNG. Period.

Rule 2) There are likely spells with >1 min durations that concentration is not the answer for.

Well fucking right there are, but let me tell you... fuck those spells.
You got it wrong Erik. I wasn't shooting at flight. I was shooting at buff spells in general, and you might have missed it but "Polymorph"... and other spell that allow the wizard to be better thant the "VAH" all day long. Fuck you and those spell right the fuck off. Cause it exemplifies the problem.

Conjuration is the most notorious offender. Its has the most things that let the wizard play god. The "I conjure boulders" bullshit is pretty much that bullshit.
If there's a spell that conjure bolders Right NOW: Then it should require a reflex save. . . an really, Thats OKAY.

If there's a spell that forces bolders to fall on you: No save. Then that by definition is a bullshit spell.
Therefore falling under the "I call bullshit" rules of magic. Will: Disbelive"

Now... of course I realize that people love to jerk off furiously to the Terrible and Mighty powers of the arcane, buuuut... that fucking OBVIOUSLY doesn't work in a balanced game scenario.

I've never been one of those people who say "nerf the wizard" buuuut...
lets be honest. The biggest source of bullshit for wizards isn't shit like "Fireball" or really anything that says save: Half, or Save: Dismiss; it's shit that says.
I'm doing this to you and you have NO say about it.
Really? That dynamic is bullshit.

So as a blanket rule, it should fucking work, somewhat, there will be OUTLIERS if you look hard enough but once you get to the point that all spells either...
1. Require an attack.
2. Require at touch attack (Now, obviously rays don't fall under the save rules)
3. Require a Save.
4. Eat up actions to keep them going.

You get a much more workable schema.
In the event that you want to buff a fighter.

The other thing thats wonky is dimensional walking etc etc. . . which like you said should be only doable under XYZ conditions. For everyone.

Not only that... With the whole thing about being level capped for saves. You can still have GOD's/Demon Lords/And really High Level PC's(now with mythals!) doing high level bullshit, in story mode because people actually Can't make the save for what they're doing.

Lastly, I say all that, with the Caveat:
I'M NOT GOING TO PLAY That game.
I'm going to give the "Fighter" Comparable superpowers, and move on.
Thats how I want to do it. I'm not afraid of evil "anime" cause I know western badassess were all magical, or the rules just didn't not apply to them "I think I'm gonna ride that there tornada" and I'm fine with that.
For people who, DON'T understand you have to do that, AND don't want to play something different they should consider looking down the road I'm pointing at, as they start buffing Non-casters.
Soo.... you know, I say that to say: Shove a Cinderblock up your ass, if you think that I'm genuinely interested in debating the "fine tuning" of the above rules. So while your sphintcer smashing yourself. Keep in mind that I'm saying "go that way ... if..." not "HEY WE SHOULD ALL GO THAT WAY" illiterate dumbshits.

[Orion]

What the hell happened to Midnight v?

[John Magnum]

It's like a shadzar for the Tomes, or something.

[Username17]

What the hell happened to Midnight v?

No idea. But apparently he wants people to be able to not believe actual physical objects that have been actually dropped on them because the tornado that lifted them or cut their foundations in the first place was magic. Or something. It doesn't make any fucking sense.

Every so often people get a bug up their ass about how shit like force cage and gate are super overpowered, and they attempt to come up with simple all-encompassing solutions. And like all simple solutions: these are almost invariably horseshit.

Let's start with the simple crap:

• No. You can't expect all offensive acts to allow a saving throw. That's stupid. If I blow up a bridge with my magic, the bridge is fucking gone. If you needed to get across the chasm in a reasonable amount of time and now you can't, that's too fucking bad. And because that's thoroughly indirect, and even nominally prevents me from crossing over to the side that's filling up with lava just as much as it prevents you from leaving it - it's not even clear who would get a save in some sort of bullshit "there's always a save" scenario.
• No. You can't expect a universal duration system to solve anything. There is some trade-off between big effects with short durations and small effects with long durations that is viable, and a unified duration setup just makes everything that is more powerful than warrants the allowed duration broken and everything less powerful than warrants the allowed duration useless. Specifically, if you make everything short duration, then you've encouraged teleport ambushes, because anything powerful enough to warrant a short duration is really good in teleport ambushes and anything else is worthless in a short-durations-only scheme.

Yes, D&D magic needs to be broken up into distinct schools and many effects need to be hit with a nerf bat, but MV's suggestions appear to have been made after polishing off all the whiskey. And then all the nail polish.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

Problem: Gate is Overpowered.

Possible Solutions:

1) Not allowing you to gate in stuff 20-40 CR higher than you.
2) Not allowing you to gate in anything you can imagine on a moments notice.
3) Not allowing you to gate in stuff even at your level.

Dumb solutions:

1) You can still Gate in Solars and Titans and Greater Prysmatic Dragons, but when you do, the Fighter who isn't allowed to ever do anything cool and shouldn't exist as a class can make a saving throw, and if he does, then the Dragon can't hurt him (but can still cast buffs on you, and can kill other people).

[Midnight_v]

What the hell happened to Midnight v?

but MV's suggestions appear to have been made after polishing off all the whiskey. And then all the nail polish.

Shit like this but mostly Kaelik, probbably. Hyperbole for the win.

It's like a shadzar for the Tomes, or something.

You are appoximately "No one" to me. I've never read anything you've ever wrote, and don't know who you are. Orion I know him, read him often. When the day come that you're drinking tequilla and posting? No one will even ask "What happened to ... uh... whats his name?"

No idea. But apparently he wants people to be able to not believe actual physical objects that have been actually dropped on them because the tornado that lifted them or cut their foundations in the first place was magic. Or something. It doesn't make any fucking sense.

Frank...

Willfull fucking ignorance for the win... really.
Okay. Lets say this again. Frank. . . Orion... in this example the player would get a reflex save. Rogues wouldn't even fucking care they'd dance merrily through the debris singing "baby cause I'm a thug".
Really thats fucking fine.

Blowing up a bridge as you describe is 1... bullshit, in D&D terms, but if its a Massive stone bridge there's not many fucking spell that insta-DO that without using wish or miracle magic. If its less than that then it falls into the "cut the fucking rope" or "Lets demolish this wooden bridge" which isn't a magical issue at all. . .
Thats a god damned scenario where the bridge is gone, doesnt' matter if its gone via magic or whatever, but its the scenario thats fucked being gone with magic is irrelavant you can blow that shit with gunpoweder situations the same. So really your example is precisely: dick. Bridges actually have rules Frank. They aren't generally arbitrarily blown up or they are and don't fucking matter anyway.

Every so often people get a bug up their ass about how shit like force cage and gate are super overpowered,

Are you listening to yourself? Frank... gate and forcecage ARE stupid fucking spells man. We're not talking about Lets make all classes TOME, were talking about going the opposite way. Not so far away as 4th where nobody gets nice thing but where all things are relatively "fair".
Not that even in the TOMES, there's a feat that specifically calls out "shatter force effects" cause really its a Dick-move(tm) to have something like that in your game at all.

Since we have example of how summoned monsters aren't really fully there AT ALL, one can extrapolate from there. I don't give a fuck to because, I really have a low investment in that shit at all. Still, sticking your finger in your ears and saying "Fuck no" won't make the feasibility of the solution go away.
So the shit about the saves is valid. Wish is a bullshit spell to by the way. . . but we know that already dont' we.

No. You can't expect all offensive SPELLS to allow a saving throw

Bullshit.

If you're playing a game and your "Magic" is IMPLICITLY, without limits as to what it can and cannot do, from an interaction perspective AND Numberically" you have fucking failed. You start sucking COCKS/lbs when you say "Magic is all powerful, but all classes don't have magic".
So. . . while the quick dirty solutions, I suggest are not the end ALL of that scenario...
Since we've already seen what Wuxia does for people we might as well see what balanced magic would do for a game as well.

As much as people like to shout down ideas we don't like around here. . . I'm not surprised no ones ever discussed it.

Further... teleport ambushes... hmm... You might HAVE a point about a teleport ambush... except.
Seriously, most, long running personal buffs exist to make fighters tuck themselves and cry. The ones that "aren't worth" using under that dynamic probbably shouldn't exist "As spells".
Seriously polymorph and divine (I fight better than you) can honestly just fucking go. . . unless you're limiting those things to NOT being spells. Polymorph, is a fucking class.
Divine (X) is also, but it should be rolled into the "Divine Buffer" class not a thing that any cleric can do at anytime.

I'm just as much interested in balance from any perspective, not just the one where we fap to the same Ideas over and over again. Reducio ad absurdem or you know just "Shit all over" anyone to death who dares to think different.

In the end though the shit I suggest isn't
1. Preposterous
2. Fleshed out in the least.
Its a fucking stub of things that really will take a lot of work and may or may not yeild proper results when you finally get the bolts down.
3. Not a idea set that I'm willing to test personally.

So yeah... because I knew someone would come in "not read" the part where I said: If you can't take powering up the fighter, you must attack the magics, or play something else. ...
- Illterate fucks abound.[/b]

Edit: Kaelik.... Dumb solutions: Shadow Conjurations limts of magic summons in general. Taking Kaelik off ignore.

Seriously, though, Kaelik, I heard you like Barrlled Cock, So I but a cock inside a barrel, then dropped it a barrel of cocks. So you can...you know, bob like you do.

[Kaelik]

So yeah... because I knew someone would come in "not read" the part where I said: If you can't take powering up the fighter, you must attack the magics, or play something else. ...
- Illterate fucks abound.[/b]

No dumbass, that's what people are talking about when they compare you to shadzar.

See this:

Been reading this and a million other threads just like it... not to mention the *"New Tome" thread on the front page for years now. That beings said the collective "fuck vanilla action hero" thing is an annoyance, and "Martial Magic" is an anoyance to **assholes however there are enough assholes that we actually can't get away with ignoring them... "yet" and they teach those asshole ways to anyone who'll listen as best they can so ymmv for the long term.

Still, let me entertain the idea that we generally dismiss here because... well why the fuck should we bother, I think is the prevailing thought, I know its been mine, but fuck I'm bored so let me chunk this dart.

That's actually completely unintelligible. That is shadzar quality illegible shit complete with failed punctuation, ellipsis spam, and run on sentences.

No one knew what the fuck you were even trying to say. Stop making illegible pointless bitching about how you are the one true knolwedge and 2ethe thing you just made up and haven't tested is the greatest idea ever and the only thing in the universe worth playing.

Dumb solutions: Shadow Conjurations limts of magic summons in general.

Read Shadow Conjuration. That shit is terrible. I gate in a Dragon it is real/unreal. It casts fly on me, and then I fly, you disbelieve the Dragon. Fuck, I disbelieve the Dragon. What the fuck happens to the fly spell cast?

I cast Move Earth under a bunch of houses. You disbelieve in the hole created by Lack of Earth, so do some Peasants, but not others. What the fuck happens?

That is a stupid fucking solution to the problem. Not allowing people to gate in Greater Prismatic Dragons is a solution. Making them act like Shadow Conjuration is not, because no one ever uses Shadow Conjuration to summon precisely because those rules are stupid as fucking shit.

[Midnight_v]

Hey you illterate dumbshit. I know you're up there ^_^
Giving up that sweet virgin agnst and nerdrage, I so desire from you. I know the irony of typing this to you is irrelavant because, well, you lack reading comprehension. Still, you are actually on ignore though.
I know you can't resist talking to me though. Trying your best to get a shot a that, thick, long, brown barrell.