D&DNext: Playtest Review

[K]

There are a lot of minor issues like rolled HPs and the Stealth rules being way overcomplicated and major issues like skills just being way too MTP, but I think the most annoying is how often you are going to say "Advantage" and "Disadvantage."

I think I'd just say "Edge" and "Fucked" instead.

[hogarth]

So apparently WOTC's server is being obliterated by the traffic. Anyone wanna private message me a link to where I can get this stupid packet and read it for myself?

The link Sake posted :
https://www.rapidshare.com/#%21download ... zip%7c5738
works for me.

The cleric of Moradin has an AC of 18. Wears +15 armour, has a heavy shield +2, and a dex of -1. That makes for 16 AC, where is the other 2 coming from?
Also has a weapon that does 1d8 dmg that does 1d10 damage.

I know wotc is terrible at creating example chars, but seriously?

Looks like Rapidshare already took it down.

I got it to work by replacing "%21" with "!".

[CapnTthePirateG]

Goddamn it. I still can't download from the Wizards site, dumb fuckers.

Anyone have any ideas?

[infected slut princess]

There is no THAC0 or BAB, i.e. no number that supposedly reflects your raw fighting skill, or whatever those values represent exactly.

Your attack roll is just d20 + ability bonus + situational mods + magic/weapon training.

The sample Fighter has "weapon focus" as a class feature that gives him +2 attack and dmg on all his weapons.

[Seerow]

There is no THAC0 or BAB, i.e. no number that supposedly reflects your raw fighting skill, or whatever those values represent exactly.

Your attack roll is just d20 + ability bonus + situational mods + magic/weapon training.

The sample Fighter has "weapon focus" as a class feature that gives him +2 attack and dmg on all his weapons.

So what's the difference between a 1st and 10th level fighter? Just more hit points?

[Voss]

The link Sake posted :
https://www.rapidshare.com/#%21download ... zip%7c5738
works for me.


I know wotc is terrible at creating example chars, but seriously?

Looks like Rapidshare already took it down.

I got it to work by replacing "%21" with "!".

That worked. Ta.

[ishy]

I'd appreciate that. Maybe to megaupload or something?


I got my email about 3 hours after they made the post saying they were fixing the bad link problem, and was still sent a bad link.

Megaupload doesn't seem to work.
How about this one?
Next_Playtest.zip

I just grabbed this file from Sake btw, you might want to remove the password from the pdf if you want to copy paste from it.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Thanks. My school won't let me download it, I'll try when I get home.

[Seerow]

Thanks, got it and reading now.

[ishy]

I got it to work by replacing "%21" with "!".

Your browser doesn't support url encoding?
What kind of shitty browser do you use?

[Lago PARANOIA]

So what's the difference between a 1st and 10th level fighter? Just more hit points?

From what I gather, a higher-level fighter will have more feats, more magical items, and also more class features. The game also says that a fighter can make several attacks at once.

This is on top of what we know what a fighter already gets. Specifically, they will have:

Level 2:
Fighter's Surge: Twice per day, you can take two actions on your turn.

Level 3:
Increase damage of weapon attacks by +1.
Cleave (this was probably their feat): Once per turn, when you reduce an enemy to 0 hit points or fewer with a melee attack, you can make a single melee attack as part of the same action.


Yeah, that's pretty fucking pathetic.

[hogarth]

I got it to work by replacing "%21" with "!".

Your browser doesn't support url encoding?
What kind of shitty browser do you use?

I'm using Chrome.

Hey, I'm not saying it makes sense, but that got it to work... (Maybe it's just coincidence.)

[hogarth]

Hey, wait a minute...

In one of the recent "Legends & Lore" columns, they claim rogues have d8 hit dice:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx ... l/20120521

But in the playtest, the rogue has d6 hit dice. I'm pretty sure one of those must be wrong.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I just noticed -- people get feats as part of their background.

Now, while I'm not adverse to people gaining little bullshit benefits for roleplaying in a certain way, this is a really hard tightrope to walk. Because if the benefits are too big, you have everyone declaring that they're Gladiators or Aristocratic Brats or whatever the fuck even if they have no intention of roleplaying that out. It's extremely annoying to both the player and their buddies. For these you always want to veer on the side of caution or underpoweredness, because someone can always roleplay their being a knight or an escaped slave or whatever even if their character sheet doesn't say so. It's much harder to NOT roleplay being a knight or an escaped slave or whatever if that's what their character sheet says they are.

Also, note that there's a little blurb on the character sheets that say 'for a more old school experience, play without themes or backgrounds'. Yeah, thanks, fuckers. I totally want to be able to not have any fucking feats ever on a character whose greatest class ability is '+1 to damage'.

What the hell? Did they recycle a piece of 3rd Fucking Edition artwork for their twee little adventure document? Geez laweez. That's from the Player's Handbook 2. I know because it's one of the better pictures in that book and it really stands out. It looks like ass here, though, which is a disgrace.

Run Away: Players don't always agree on when to run from a fight, especially with actions dictated by the initiative order. A character might want to make just one more attack or stay behind to make sure someone else can get away. If the players are talking about running, feel free to give them that option, dropping out of initiative order and seguing to a chase scene. The PCs' success in escaping should be dictated by their their choices instead of by rules minutia, such as whether one character is slightly slower than another.

MOTHER OF SHIT.

Mearls, you fulminating asshole, can you stop fucking up my game for like ONE MINUTE?

[ishy]

I'm using Chrome.

Hey, I'm not saying it makes sense, but that got it to work... (Maybe it's just coincidence.)

Hmm according to stackoverflow it is a chrome only bug. Thanks.
Guess I need to make sure my websites now check if someone is using chrome >.>

- Edit @ Lago, at lvl 1 fighters already gain +2 wpn dmg.

[Lago PARANOIA]

- Edit @ Lago, at lvl 1 fighters already gain +2 wpn dmg.

Oh, my bad. Thought that was another feat. What with being named the ever-generic Weapon Focus.

EDIT: Skimming over the example adventure, damn, those sure are a lot of monsters. And they don't have all that many hit points, either. Except for when they do. Seriously, what the fuck formula are they using to calculate monster stats?

I think it's pretty fucking sad that the cleric is now the face-rocker of AoE damage. The Pelor cleric kind of chews at first level (but so does everyone) but by level 3 they can pretty much clear out a room full of mooks in a couple of rounds. Which is actually kind of important, considering that it's not uncommon for more than a dozen mooks armed with 1d6+1 damage dice to be gathered in a 30 x 30-40 room. Those 20 ft. radius bursts will make you the MVP of the party. The Pelor Cleric is also a monster at healing, especially with a Staff of Healing in their corner pocket.

Seriously, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't have an All Cleric team past level 2. Some can be Pelor clerics, some can be Moradain clerics, but you will simply rock the faces off of most encounters even though the mission says that you're not expected to fight them all fairly or straight-up.

[Seerow]

Okay, I officially despise the hit dice mechanic. Seriously, it's like they took the worst part of 3.5 mundane healing, and combined it with the worst part of 4e healing. You need a healer's kit to do any healing at all, and then the healing you get is randomized, and extremely limited. I guess we're expected to go back to carrying around bucketloads of wands to keep up with healing? Or are we expected to carry a healbot cleric around all the time?

[Seerow]

Also, where is the sample fighter getting 2d6+7 damage? Even ignoring the Greataxe being 1d12 rather than 2d6, he has a +3 str mod and a +2 from Weapon Focus. That should get him +5 for 2d6+5. Where's the other +1 to hit and +2 to damage coming from? For example I see nothing that says to multiply str by 1.5 with a two handed weapon, and the character lacks a masterwork weapon. Am I missing something obvious?

[Voss]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Not only are the clerics strictly better than the wizard in every fucking way possible. (weapons, armor, hit points, and quality of spells- fucking spiritual hammer is level 1 and makes an attack every round for a goddamn minute... as part of the cleric's action), but wizards also have to deal with fucking constitution checks every single time they are damaged if they want to cast anything but a cantrip. Even for the relatively high con on the pregen wizard, he essentially has a 35% chance of spell failure any time someone wants to dick with him.

The clerics are fucking gods by comparison to the rest of the pregens (followed by the fighter, I think). (effectively) combat long buffs, healing and big attack spells. Spiritual hammer alone is worth the cost of admission to the cleric class, and its right there at level one- screw the fighter's twice per day double strike. The cleric is doing that for the entire fight. (And likely multiple times once you ditch the preset spell selection).

Also, where is the sample fighter getting 2d6+7 damage? Even ignoring the Greataxe being 1d12 rather than 2d6, he has a +3 str mod and a +2 from Weapon Focus. That should get him +5 for 2d6+5. Where's the other +1 to hit and +2 to damage coming from? For example I see nothing that says to multiply str by 1.5 with a two handed weapon, and the character lacks a masterwork weapon. Am I missing something obvious?

There are either a lot of typos, or place where they just aren't showing the math. (which makes for a fucking frustrating playtest, because you can't generate accurate numbers if the input is wrong).

Okay, I officially despise the hit dice mechanic. Seriously, it's like they took the worst part of 3.5 mundane healing, and combined it with the worst part of 4e healing. You need a healer's kit to do any healing at all, and then the healing you get is randomized, and extremely limited. I guess we're expected to go back to carrying around bucketloads of wands to keep up with healing? Or are we expected to carry a healbot cleric around all the time?

Nah, just a healer cleric (which comes with herbalism to make healing potions). At level 3, they are automatically maximized, so healing troubles are over forever, as he can make 3/hour at half cost.
As it stands gold is effectively worthless shit, as it explicitly can't buy magic items (luckily healing potions are mundane equipment).

So no, not bucket loads of wands, bucket loads of potions. But the cleric won't be a healbot. He'll be fucking obliterating people.


I still don't know what the rogue is for. Its worth noting that the damn cleric of pelor is only at -4 when it comes to dealing with locks and traps.
well, it would be if thieves tools didn't have a special handwavium clause of the rogue character sheet. Oh well.

Its worth noting that the rogue is fucking _useless_ as a scout. His wisdom (spot) check ranges from 9 to 19.

[Voss]

What the hell? Did they recycle a piece of 3rd Fucking Edition artwork for their twee little adventure document? Geez laweez. That's from the Player's Handbook 2. I know because it's one of the better pictures in that book and it really stands out. It looks like ass here, though, which is a disgrace.

Don't worry about it. It is the Caves of Chaos, the entire adventure is recycled. See, they care about the old school.


Speaking of old school, the bestiary. Really, percentage of the tribe or group that has certain weapons?Really?

[Whatever]

There are a lot of minor issues like rolled HPs and the Stealth rules being way overcomplicated and major issues like skills just being way too MTP, but I think the most annoying is how often you are going to say "Advantage" and "Disadvantage."

I think I'd just say "Edge" and "Fucked" instead.

It will take players approximately ten seconds to shorten those to "ads" and "disads". Which is awful. Then we will be "adding ads" to actions.

[K]

I'm not terribly impressed with the cleric. Spiritual Hammer is 1d8 damage a round for a spell/action and you still need a successful attack roll each round with your Multiple Attribute Dependency stats.

Searing Light looks better for a 1st level spell at 4d6 + stat damage on a hit for turn advantage, but even that's not too impressive considering that you can miss with the silly thing.

Shield of Faith is probably the best 1st level cleric spell. Tossing down Disadvantage on an ally's attackers for a minute is going to create the most turn advantage in most circumstances.

Hell, the way that ANY healing puts someone from negatives to instant "HP >0" becomes "0+whatever the healing gave," Word of Healing's option to get a weapon attack with some healing on an ally has the potential to get a dropped PC up and fighting and is pretty competitive.

Still, compared to the Wizard who has several no-save options and combat control, they seem reasonably balanced. The fact that spells are checking AC in a lot of circumstances really bones a lot of spells.

-----------------------

Anyone notice that humans have +4 stat points? Totally not worth the stuff that other races get, but interesting nonetheless.

[Pedantic]

I'm not terribly impressed with the cleric. Spiritual Hammer is 1d8 damage a round for a spell/action and you still need a successful attack roll each round with your Multiple Attribute Dependency stats.

Casters use their primary casting stats for attack rolls, making this a non-issue.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Alright, I got my hands on this.

Initial Thoughts: Wow, they LOVE DM Fappery. It's not "you need to make a check," it's "when your DM decides you need to make a check."

1st level you roll hit points? Jesus, Mearls, did we need that crap back?

Hey, no more nonlethal balls of sulfuric acid.

Psionics are coming. Read the magic section.


Ok, at least the wizard gets hold person. That doesn't seem shitty. Except where it goes from paralyzed->cannot move at all. Paralyzed explicitly states it can't move. Redundant much? Oh, and the cleric gets it, thus removing any incentive to play a wizard.

Sleep is shit. How the mighty have fallen.

So the fighter deals the same damage as searing light, which the cleric has to spend limited resources on. Seems legit. Also, searing light is a better attack spell then anything available to 1st-level wzards, supposedly the attack magic class. Legit. And they have that damage fuckery. And they can't wear armor, but armor sucks, who cares.

Rituals are going to suck.

None of the monsters have CRs or anything, and they all seem to be made of arbitrarium. Sigh. The dark priest is a better spellcaster than the PC wizard. Why am I not surprised? Oh, and they create undead, but doesn't specify how. Fuck arbitrarium in all its forms. And you can roll for weapons...that won't be annoying at all.

It doesn't look good.

[K]

I'm not terribly impressed with the cleric. Spiritual Hammer is 1d8 damage a round for a spell/action and you still need a successful attack roll each round with your Multiple Attribute Dependency stats.

Casters use their primary casting stats for attack rolls, making this a non-issue.

You miss the point.

The spell is only good because you can make normal melee attacks and also get the spell's attacks, but if you maxed out Wis for the spell it means that your Str is also lagging (you don't get any Dex weapon proficiencies).

At best, it's 5d8 damage for a 10 round combat, but it's probably going to be a lot less actual damage in reality.... closer to 2d8 to 3d8 because combats seem designed to last 4-5 rounds for epic combats and even less for regular ones from the numbers here.

You'd probably do more overall damage by just having a high Str and wading into melee with a decent weapon. The extra stat damage to every attack is going to be bigger total per combat than the spell.

The problem is also that it's a ranged attack. Using any ranged attack (spell or weapon) while in melee gives Disadvantage, so it makes using Spiritual Weapon while fighting in melee even shittier.