Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

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Post by Zaranthan »

Mask_De_H wrote:Any other industry, these people would be run out on a rail. And people in the industry wonder why it's so shit.
It's the same problem that plagues so many gaming tables: the idea that bad gaming is better than no gaming.

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Post by virgil »

Has this forum ever discussed some manner of slowing down in-game level advancement? I remember something about a farmer going home, and by the time he returns to the city to sell the next harvest, the city's been conquered something like four times by four successive bands of zeroes that advanced to epic-level heroes.

Reason I'm thinking about it is that one of my players keeps going on about training times to advance a level for older editions of D&D.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Yeah, per quest/adventure/number of session advancement.
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Post by Wiseman »

I'm planning a kingdom hearts based game, and the plan was for the characters to go up a level for each world they complete.
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Post by tussock »

In AD&D there was an optional mechanic for taking one week per level to level up.

Which is a year for your former rat hunter to reach 9th level and take your place in the landed nobility. But no one did that, because the rules for paying for it were badly written on the way to reaching 2nd level, so it's hardly relevant even then.

It's basically a D&D trope now that you need new heroes, that society will face existential crises on a yearly basis. Gods popping in to lay waste to cities, or thousands of infectious undead, or every giant spilling out into the civilised lands at once, or a hell mouth opening, or the humanoids being united against you, or a great war. Kings and other despots get killed along the way, and you need new ones, who are the PCs.

D&D started out as a post-apocalypse concept, full of ruins and lost treasure hordes and rising monster populations that the PCs could recover into order, but then the worlds lasted long enough to need new shake ups to let the next lots of PCs do it too.
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Post by virgil »

Mask_De_H wrote:Yeah, per quest/adventure/number of session advancement.
I was under the impression that only was only really meant to address and counteract the incentive to grind. As it's results based, rather than murder-based, you could level faster in-game; as you're encouraged to take short-cuts, sneak past guards, and try to get the hobgoblin princess saved with little in the way of dilly-dally.
tussock wrote:Which is a year for your former rat hunter to reach 9th level and take your place in the landed nobility. But no one did that, because the rules for paying for it were badly written on the way to reaching 2nd level, so it's hardly relevant even then.
As I said, I actively know one player who tells me about at least two campaigns, when he was younger, where the group did that. So 'no one' is hyperbolic. As for the trope of needing new heroes...meh? That's basically taking the stance that seems to be encouraged here - if you want PCs to not go from zero to superhero in less than a season, the DM just plain doesn't let there be any adventures happening for a level-up until some time later.
Last edited by virgil on Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prak »

There's also location-based XP. The Castle Greybutt is worth X000 XP regardless of whether you kill every dickwolf inside or sneak past every guard, snag the titty dancing goblin statue and high tail it the fuck out of there.
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Post by tussock »

Hyperbole is the best thing ever.

I ran a game for a while that limited advancement to 1 level per game-year. Was an attempt to encourage some wintering over and supplies drama and story-side stuff. Basically, players could go out and kill more stuff any time, but not for XP until later.

Bit of work to split up pre-packaged 3-level modules, which is OK when I'm modding them for my own game anyway, but still. Ultimately it left a bunch of stories we couldn't tell, including the heroic advancement of the PCs to solve a problem that starts out much bigger than them. Part of D&D is the bit where the things that used to scare you, later you can kick their ass, it's good stuff. 4e notably didn't do that bit very well. /aside.

I've found it a better solution to getting down time to just not give folks anything to do. Have some peace in the kingdom for a while. Fuck all those big 20-level meta-plots with active big-bads and constant time pressure, tell 'em at the end of whatever that it'll be 2d6 game-months until anything else turns up and they can do some background stuff between sessions if they want to, otherwise we'll assume they earned their keep and move on.

No place for a mega-dungeon in that, but ah well, finishing things is nice too.
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Post by virgil »

The revised necromancer handbook gave advice for what schools to drop for specialist wizards, except for uttercold builds. Do you just drop Enchantment & Illusion both, or do you lose Abjuration and therefore be unable to cast Planar Binding (which requires a magic circle)?
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Post by Kaelik »

virgil wrote:The revised necromancer handbook gave advice for what schools to drop for specialist wizards, except for uttercold builds. Do you just drop Enchantment & Illusion both, or do you lose Abjuration and therefore be unable to cast Planar Binding (which requires a magic circle)?
No part of the Magic Circle used in Planar Binding cares about Caster Level or save DC, so unlike all the times people tell you to just UMD a scroll of Black Tentacles every time you want to cast it, this is totally the time to do it.

An Eternal Wand of Magic Circle gives you 10 magic circles every second of every day for the rest of your life. A wand of Magic Circle gives you 250 days of magic circles.
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Post by virgil »

Kaelik wrote:An Eternal Wand of Magic Circle gives you 10 magic circles every second of every day for the rest of your life. A wand of Magic Circle gives you 250 days of magic circles.
Doesn't having a prohibited school prevent you from using spell completion items like scrolls and wands?
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Post by Leress »

virgil wrote:
Kaelik wrote:An Eternal Wand of Magic Circle gives you 10 magic circles every second of every day for the rest of your life. A wand of Magic Circle gives you 250 days of magic circles.
Doesn't having a prohibited school prevent you from using spell completion items like scrolls and wands?
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Post by Kaelik »

virgil wrote:
Kaelik wrote:An Eternal Wand of Magic Circle gives you 10 magic circles every second of every day for the rest of your life. A wand of Magic Circle gives you 250 days of magic circles.
Doesn't having a prohibited school prevent you from using spell completion items like scrolls and wands?
It's a fucking wand you use in your off days that lasts 5 fucking days per casting. If you personally have any ranks in UMD, or you know anyone who does, or you happen to know a first level Wizard anywhere in the world who you can borrow 3 seconds from on a day fucking off, then you can use the wand.

Saying "I can't use a downtime spell that comes online after Teleport, because I don't have Magic Circle on my spell list" is pretty much the dumbest thing you can say.
Last edited by Kaelik on Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prak »

What's the general opinion of "Transformative" feat groups, like Aberrant, Devil-Touched and Abyssal Heritor (did I miss any?)

I personally really like them when you can get enough of them, and some are really nice to have even without that, at least in builds dedicated to what they give you (like Deepspawn to push your grapple check ever so slightly higher, or Inhuman Reach to push your threatened area out another rank). But I haven't tried to evaluate them for balance.
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Post by tussock »

For a lot of the people that want them they're a bunch of fluff attached to their feat that they probably don't like. For a lot more people they're a mechanic attached to their fluff that doesn't suit their Sorcerer or whatever at all, so now they can't be fluffed as desired.

Generally I'm of the opinion that the best way to do "slightly bad-touched" is to just write it on your character sheet and carry on with life. If there's a feat that grants extra reach that you can only take at 1st level, it doesn't need anything special.

So more like a GURPS Lens, where the bit of the book that talks about being Devil-Touched just lists some thematically appropriate feats and skills and spells and companions and whatever else.
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Post by OgreBattle »

What's the general opinion of "Transformative" feat groups, like Aberrant, Devil-Touched and Abyssal Heritor (did I miss any?)
"Your grandpa boinked a fireplace so you can light things on fire" is something that attributes, classes, and skills doesn't really cover so it's appropriate to make that a feat.

Being part-fire could also be a 'race' option, but I figure you can remove the 'race' category and just have elves be 'fey blooded' and dorfs are 'badger blooded' and halfings are 'smol' and so on.
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Post by Kaelik »

Prak wrote:What's the general opinion of "Transformative" feat groups, like Aberrant, Devil-Touched and Abyssal Heritor (did I miss any?)

I personally really like them when you can get enough of them, and some are really nice to have even without that, at least in builds dedicated to what they give you (like Deepspawn to push your grapple check ever so slightly higher, or Inhuman Reach to push your threatened area out another rank). But I haven't tried to evaluate them for balance.
Anything which allows you to take lots of feats in a group, and has each feat get better the more feats you take, is always unbalanced. Now, they can be unbalanced like Abyssal Heritor, where they are garbage no matter what, or they can be unbalanced where getting too many makes you too strong but taking anything less than all of them makes them too weak.

There is no balanced group of feats ever.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Searching the Den I've found a 'Shadowrun 4e consolidated skill list' where body is folded into strength and charisma into willpower:
Orion wrote: AGILITY: Gunplay (Subskill: Ordnance), Martial Arts (Subskill: Exotics), Infiltration (Subskill: Thievery)

STRENGTH: Athletics (Subskill: Acrobatics)

REACTION: Pilot (Subskill: Rigging)

INTUTION: Alertness (Subskill: Shadowing), Assensing, Survivalism

LOGIC: Saboteur (Subskill: Mechanic), Data (Subskill: Hardware), Hacking (Subskill: Software), First Aid (Subskill: Medicine), E. Warfare (Subskill: Cybercombat), Forgery, Academics

WILLPOWER: Etiquette (Subskill: Negotiate), Intimidate (Subskill: Leadership), Con, Linguistics

MAGIC: Spellcasting (Subskill: Ritual), Counterspell (Subskill: Banishing), Summoning (Subskill: Binding)
This list seems good enough, but wondering if any of y'all think it could be done differently.
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Post by virgil »

Does the Tome Marshall's Untiring class feature make them immune to the nonlethal damage from forced marching, which causes fatigue, or just the fatigued/exhausted conditions themselves?
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Post by Longes »

Sudden question, but does anyone have protips on making SR 3 melee adepts (and adepts in general)? Is Killing Hands better at Serious or Deadly? Improved Reflexes vs. Synaptic Booster?
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Post by hyzmarca »

Longes wrote:Sudden question, but does anyone have protips on making SR 3 melee adepts (and adepts in general)? Is Killing Hands better at Serious or Deadly? Improved Reflexes vs. Synaptic Booster?
1: Be a Cylops if it's allowed. Otherwise, be a normal troll.

2: Get a Polearm.

3: Dikote it.

Each point of reach is -1 to your TN. A Troll with a Polearm is Reach 3. This means that you have a -3 to all of your melee TNs. This is extremely powerful. Add Improved Ability 6 on top of this along with a troll's prodigious strength, and pretty much anything that doesn't have hardened armor or ITNW is going to die. With the Dikote, you're doing Str+4D Damage to anything you hit.

If you want to be more versatile, learn Edged Weapons and get a Dikoted Claymore instead. You're giving up two points of Power, but Edged Weapons can also be used with knives and katanas, which are generally easier to conceal. Though with Polearms you can also use a telescoping staff, which is concealable and stuns. Remember to dikote everything.

So you're rolling 12 dice at -3 TN and doing STR+4D Damage. Your minimum Strength as a Troll is 5. That makes your attacks 9D if you completely neglect Strength.

But a Cyclops gets +6 Strength, minimum 7. With a Dikoted Polearm your attacks do 11D, if you don't put any points into Strength.

Make your Polearm a Force 1 Weapon Focus. The extra dice don't matter, that's what Improved Ability is for. What matters is the ability to bypass ITNW and hit spirits with your 11D minimum damage.

Put some points in Strength, however many you feel like. Don't compromise other stats just for some extra power. Body is very important for you, too. Unless you're going up against vehicles, then max that sucker out. You'll eventually be able to canopener APCs.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Longes »

So, unarmed is a sucker's game?
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Post by hyzmarca »

Longes wrote:So, unarmed is a sucker's game?
It depends on what kind of game you're playing. If you're ever in a situation where a ten-foot-tall man with a a freaking polaxe would be conspicuous, unarmed has a lot going for it. Security cannot take your hands away, though good magical security might turn you away after reading your aura.

On the other hand, you cannot beat the sheer power a Troll with a giant weapon throws around. Melee weapon trolls are better than guns against heavily armored opponents.

Anyway, regarding Killing Hands, Deadly is better than Serious if you're a human, because then you're maxing out at 6 power and your opponent will probably have enough armor to knock that down to 2, so he's scoring successes on 5/6 of his soak dice. You want that extra damage, then. If you're a troll, it's less of an issue.


A human adept with Killing Hands starting out will be rolling 12 dice vs TN 4. That's an average of 6 successes.

A troll adept with a Reach 2 advantage will be rolling against TN 2 (or forcing his opponent to roll against TN 6, if he's sadistic) He'll also be rolling 12 dice, but he's going to average 10 successes. Because Melee is an opposed test, he'll always hit, and the human adept always won't, baring extreme luck.

If the human adept does hit, the Troll is going to be soaking with at least 6 dice. The human is going to be soaking the troll's attacks with at most 6 dice. Likewise, the Troll will be soaking against TN 2 if he has a secure jacket. The human will be soaking against TN 2 if he has security armor and a helmet and the troll only has base strength. He's probably going to be soaking at TN 9 or 10. Which means that he's not soaking at all.



However, if you're up against people who aren't troll adepts, with polearms, the equation changes. If you have lots of dice and they don't, you can kersplat them. It's Melee adept vs Melee adept that's the sucker's game in this scenario. You go melee against gunbunnies and let your gunbunnies shoot the ninjas.

But if you want to melee everything, then you need all the edges you can reasonably get.

A troll adept with Killing hands is better, though. He's rolling 12 dice at TN 3, average of 8 successes. He's got at least 5 power, probably closer to 10. He's going to steamroll everything except a polearm adept or an armored vehicle.

But yes, in melee, Reach is king. It's a very powerful melee modifier. It can reduce your TN, or increase your opponent's. Worst case scenario for the unarmed adept vs the troll is that unarmed adept is rolling vs TN 7. Average of 2 successes on 12 dice. While the Polearm adept is rolling vs TN 4 and getting 6 successes.

TN modifiers are extremely powerful, and reach is a very easy one to control.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Expanding on this, Killing Hands is best used with a stealth or face build. You're not going to be a combat monster. You're going to be Kung Fu James Bond. You can walk up to people, shake their hands, and make their heads explode with your fists. That's great. It's effective.

The best thing about Killing Hands is that it can't be taken away from you and weapons detectors can't find it. (Skilled aura readers are a different matter) therefore, you can take it almost anywhere.

Trying to be an unarmed combat monster would be a mistake. But being an unarmed assassin is something else entirely. It's actually very effective.

Don't get Killing Hands D, in this case. It's too expensive. Killing Hands S is nice, but straight Strength M Stun is perfectly servicable when combined with IA. Do get some IA: Stealth and maybe some IAs Ettiquite. Kinestics is a godsend, but not something you want to get beyond level 1 for a mixed build like this, too costly.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Longes wrote:So, unarmed is a sucker's game?
Reach is pretty much the beginning and end of the melee combat game. Things in SR3 matter in the following order:

Target Number Mods >> Dicepool Mods >> Power Level Mods >> Damage Level Mods.

Basically if you don't hit it doesn't matter how much damage you might have done, and target numbers matter more than dicepool sizes or thresholds. So the attack roll matters more than the soak roll, and the target numbers on each matter more than other parameters. On the attack roll target number end of the scale, there's pretty much just reach and outnumbering. There aren't a lot of other sources of beneficial target number swings that you can control in any way. There's very little in the way of available boosts to attack dicepools, and what there is has a tendency to be either bioware that doesn't give a shit what you are attacking with and weapon foci which fucking mandate that you be swinging that particular weapon.

For Reach, you can get one point for being some variety of Troll, and you can get one point for having a sword or other "plausibly concealable" weapon. You can get +2 for having a non-concealable polearm or a very concealable but full of fiddly special rules and hard to enchant mono whip. If you absolutely insist, you can use unarmed attacks if you go for the "Close Combat" maneuver from Cannon Companion and negate all Reach on both sides. But even just having a club you'll have reach on 90% of your opponents who won't have a melee weapon at all, so this is really a stretch.

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