Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

[Prak]

Not sure what you mean by Quarry. The idea was it would be more variable than FE or Smite (Alignment), but FE with an option to choose the target each day was one idea I had.

[ETortoise]

I was looking through the old Kitchen Sink Fantasy threads and became curious about the CAN damage system outlined in this thread. In that thread the system is talked about in the context of both Winds of Fate powers and the Very Abstract Locations (which I think sometimes get referred to as Tides of Battle,) is it possible to pull out the CAN portion from those systems? Is it easy?

Ideally I'd like to knock together a levels 1-5 heartbreaker using CAN, some of the resource mechanics from the multiclassing and resource management thread, and zone positioning inspired by Fate. Positioning will be the next step though, since I want to be sure I have a handle on the damage/health.

Let me know if i have things straight:

The attacker rolls a d20+bonuses to hit versus a DC of the target's defense. On a hit the defender rolls a D20+appropriate resistance+bonuses to soak against a DC set by the attacker's damage+/-soak modifiers on the attack.

If a character fails a save they are incapacitated, but since saves start out being easy to make they tend to succeed. If they succeed they take a wound that acts as a penalty on their save until it's healed. The idea being that combatants take a few wounds before a finishing blow is landed. As a character rises in power their base damage increases enough that they can one-shot lower-level enemies since the saving throw is off that enemy's RNG.

My first question is whether there should be different attacks that are set-ups and finishers. I could see a basic weapon attack being a FOO attack that reliably wounds and a basic called shot being a BAR attack that is easier to save but incapacitates on a failure. On the other hand, swording someone could simply incapacitate on a failure and wound on a success. It's easier to think about powers like a medusa's gaze as ones that operate in the setup/finisher system, but it could probably be finessed.

My second question is whether or not anyone had plugged some numbers into this system and played around with them. I'm not particularly mathematically inclined so I figured I'd see if I can borrow from someone else before I plug numbers in semi-randomly and brute-force things with a calculator.

I'm sure I'll have some more questions, but my lunch hour is up.

[RobbyPants]

Let me know if i have things straight:

The attacker rolls a d20+bonuses to hit versus a DC of the target's defense. On a hit the defender rolls a D20+appropriate resistance+bonuses to soak against a DC set by the attacker's damage+/-soak modifiers on the attack.

It's been years since I looked at CAN, so I might be remembering wrong, or you might be looking at a different incarnation.

I though damage and soak were resolved with 3d6, not d20. Also, I thought the defender rolled soak. You'd take a soak penalty equal to half the damage you took on subsequent attacks, making you more and more likely to ultimately succumb to the attack.

[OgreBattle]

You've gotten the basic idea of it, the mechanics can be altered to your own taste. In some ways it's kind of like Smash Bros, when you're at 0% there's no normal attack that will KO you, but as you take more damage you become more vulnerable to being KO'd, and there are certain moves that deal damage without KO power and others with KO power that don't deal much damage.

Reading through that old thread I'm interested in the idea of abstract locations:

More on Abstract Locations.

A location has a Size. It's a number. Things that are in or affect an area have a Size as well. If the Size of something in the area is less than the Size of the area, the thing is treated as a point somewhere in the area - like an electron in a shell. If the Size is as big as the area, it affects the whole area.

What this means is that you can have area attacks that affect whole areas without having low level dudes blasting whole armies with their fireballs. Epic characters find epic battlefields and need epic firestorms in order to shell those large areas. What this also means is that very large monsters (like purple worms) take up entire areas (area 3 is the fucking purple worm).

Meanwhile, features of an area - like a closet or a pit trap or a sniping position also have a size. And those features normally have a Size that is smaller than the whole area. This means that you can use your fireball to blow up the guys who are sniping at you from a little tower even if you can't use that fireball to blow up the entire area it is in. It also means that giants can't hide in closets.

Assaults and Bombardments are the normal way you interact with your action. An assault is an action that moves you into the area you are using it on. Normally, you can use it in the area you are already in. A bombardment is an action that does not move you into the area it affects. It normally can't be used on the area you are in, which means that bombardments can be to some degree paralyzed by contesting the area they are in.

When you contest an area (or a feature) and take it, it stays yours even when you leave until someone else contests it. This means that the barbarian type who assaults area after area, running around stabbing fools in the face, has a real contribution - after he has assaulted three areas, he has "captured" two areas that the PCs aren't necessarily in anymore. This can force enemies to lose turns when their own target areas are contested but empty.

Burrowing creatures go to area zero, flying creatures to area 7. This means that a landshark can burst out of the ground or a harpy can swoop down at will. But taking off or burrowing back down requires an uncontested target area. If a dragon doesn't have some free space to work with, it can't take off, because it will never roll a 7 on its targeting die.

-Username17

Was this idea fleshed out further in any other threads (other than Phonelobster's Mousetrap)? Or was it abandoned for some gameplay reason.

I get the basic idea of everything having a size and targeting everything within an area with certain moves, but not sure how to visualize it.

I can picture something where you lay out a dungeon on a grid and this corridor is one 'area' and this room is another 'area', but then an especially long corridor or huge chamber can be more than one area.

I guess the grid scales with your power level? Like Conan fighting a dinosaur in the jungle may have multiple areas representing large trees to climb up and caves to run into, while for Sephiroth all of that is one area he can slice through with one swing.

[Hicks]

Two Three questions about Dungeons and Dragons 3.5:
1: So would a cleric with a metamagic and cooperative spell feat with the spell domain and anyspell qualify for the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC?

2: Anyspell is a divine spell that let's you prepare an arcane spell in a domain slot after a 15minute casting time, and it specifically says you cast the spell as a wizard of you cleric level, but while it alters a few specific things (minor material components, WIS to save DCs) doesn't say anything about arcane spell failure; so you still have ASF when you prepare glitterdust in your 3ed spell level domain slot, right?

3: Does the following text in the apprentice feat basically let war mages, dread necromancers, and beguilers edit their spell list one spell/level at a time with anything they want?

The Apprentice Feat[/url]]Spellcaster: A spellcaster mentor could be a priest of the character's religion, a teacher at a wizard's guild, or an inventor seeking a protégé. Spellcaster mentors are not as useful as the other seven mentors for characters who cannot cast spells themselves. A spellcaster grants her apprentice a +2 competence bonus on Spellcraft checks. The tutelage of a spellcasting mentor grants additional benefits only if the apprentice shares the same class as his mentor. The apprentice only gains these benefits when he gains a level in this class; he retains all the other benefits of this feat (the bonus skills and the bonus on Spellcraft checks) regardless of what class he chooses to gain a level in.

If the apprentice and his mentor are arcane spellcasters, he gains one additional spell known at 1st level. Wizards gain this spell in their spellbooks, and spontaneous casters such as sorcerers or bards gain an additional 1st-level spell beyond their normal number of spells known. As the apprentice gains levels, he is able to learn additional spellcasting techniques from his mentor; wizards can copy from their mentor's spellbook at no charge. Spellcasters who do not prepare spells (such as a bard or sorcerer) gain increased flexibility with the spells they know. Each time an apprentice gains another of these levels, he can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. If the character and his mentor are divine spellcasters who prepare spells (such as clerics, druids, paladins, or rangers), he can select one spell he knows as a preferred spell. This can be a spell of any level he can cast. Once per day, the apprentice can spontaneously cast a preferred spell by swapping out any prepared spell of an equal spell level. He can only have one preferred spell at a time, but each time he gains a level in the associated class, he can change his preferred spell to a different spell.

[Username17]

1: So would a cleric with a metamagic and cooperative spell feat with the spell domain and Anyspell qualify for the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC?

As far as I know, the answer is no. Anyspell is weird as fuck, but when you actually cast the spell it's still using Divine Casting rules. So I'm pretty sure that while you're preparing off an Arcane writing, you're still casting a divine spell. So you wouldn't have to take your pants off to cast web in that way. And because of that, you wouldn't count as being able to prepare and cast a 2nd level Arcane spell.

Does the following text in the apprentice feat basically let war mages, dread necromancers, and beguilers edit their spell list one spell/level at a time with anything they want?

Yes. Remember that Dread Necromancers are still required by law to have Tomb Tainted Soul, so they only get to have the sweet Apprentice goodness if they are Humans or Strongheart Halflings or are allowed to duplicate Tomb Tainted Soul in some other way like being a Ghoul or Necropolitan or taking the Moil Wrought background or whatever.

Was this idea fleshed out further in any other threads (other than Phonelobster's Mousetrap)? Or was it abandoned for some gameplay reason.

Neither of those things. It's not a good fit for After Sundown 2 or Sentai Fhtagn. It's not the direction I'm looking at going for for Asymmetric Threat. It's definitely in contention for Fantastic! or either of my Fantasy Heartbreakers (10KF or BF), but those are on the back burner at this time.

-Username17

[RobbyPants]

It's definitely in contention for Fantastic! or either of my Fantasy Heartbreakers (10KF or BF), but those are on the back burner at this time.

I'm assuming "BF" is Black Forest. What's 10KF?

[Hicks]

Thanks Frank. It always wierded me out how nobody mentiond the apprentice feat for any of those classes in any guide I've looked at ever; they never fail to mention the 4~5 spells from expanded knowledge or the 9 from arcane disciple, but those always felt like a distant second fiddle to getting 2 extra skill points/level, UMD and knowledge (arcana) as class skills, and changing out 20 spells of your discretion for something more useful.

[hyzmarca]

Is there a feat that lets a rogue steal someone's clothes while they're wearing them without them noticing so they just walk around naked until someone points it out?

[Kaelik]

Why would you even want that to be a thing?

[hyzmarca]

Why would you even want that to be a thing?

I've been playing a lot of Skyrim.

Fights are a lot easier if you steal everyone's weapons and armor, first.

[Mask_De_H]

It's definitely in contention for Fantastic! or either of my Fantasy Heartbreakers (10KF or BF), but those are on the back burner at this time.

I'm assuming "BF" is Black Forest. What's 10KF?

10 Level Kitchen Sink Fantasy, the reason behind those alternate resource management system classes that get thrown around every now and again.

[Koumei]

Well as written you can do it with Sleight of Hand, you just need a really high bonus to do it unnoticed. Although even then, you're just making it so they don't notice you stealing their stuff, there's nothing stopping them from feeling the breeze on their junk or whatever.

If you were being facetious at first and all you actually want to do is steal their sword before they draw it, so they start combat feeling very stupid (and disarmed), then the penalty is somewhat smaller, I imagine. And given it's opposed by Spot, I imagine if they're Blind or you're Invisible, you're probably good to go?

[Kaelik]

Yeah, the ability to steal their armor might exist somewhere, but... ugh. Just like every idiot ball character design, I really really really want to make and NPC that does this stupid thing and forces your characters to walk around naked unaware they are naked in your games until you realize how incredibly stupid this idea is.

[OgreBattle]

Is there a consensus on what the best qualities are in Shadowrun 4e?

[Longes]

Best for what purpose? StreetSam doesn't care much about Glamour, for example, but Face does.

[OgreBattle]

Best for what purpose? StreetSam doesn't care much about Glamour, for example, but Face does.

For the street samurai and magic user to be specific, as I don't touch the hacking part of the game.

[Longes]

Best for what purpose? StreetSam doesn't care much about Glamour, for example, but Face does.

For the street samurai and magic user to be specific, as I don't touch the hacking part of the game.

Sams buy Aptitude (Favorite Weapon Skill), and look into martial arts for cherry picking. You can become an invincible melee machine of death with dual wielding. The downside is that you are in melee and get shot by people with guns. Nothing else is mandatory, but look into SURGE for Metagenetic Improvement for a cheap attribute point.

Mages are required by law to buy Restricted Gear 1 for Force 4 Power Focus, as well as a Mentor Spirit. Adepts want as many Ways as they can afford. Glamour is what every face wants, as it is one of the few ways to get more social dice.

[Schleiermacher]

More of a game design question than a game question, but I figure it's not worth its own thread so it goes here:

What's the best setup for saving throw categories?

The old "wand/spell/death/poison/trap/cool ranch" setups from pre-3E D&D are obviously kind of crap, and "each attribute is a save" from 5E isn't much better.

Fortitude/Reflex/Will seems like a decent model, except that Reflex is much less valuable than the other two and is often hard to distinguish from AC. (Because it just saves you from some damage or from being temporarily trapped, while failing a Fortitude or Will save can flat out get your character killed or render them unplayable.

But what about the M&M 3E variant, where you have Fortitude and Will, but "Reflex", aka Dodge, also doubles as part of your AC and as such is cheaper to get/gives more than the other two? Is that enough to save the model? Or would a breakdown into entirely different categories be better -and if so, which ones would y'all suggest?

[Blicero]

If you are not doing the standard D&D defenses but are still making a medieval fantasy heartbreaker, having a set of three defenses that are essentially AC/Ref, Fort, Will seems like an okay setup to me. Also, the fact that, in 3E, most Fort and Will effects are save or dies but most Ref effects are not does not mean that any system necessarily has to subscribe to 3E's paradigm. Condition tracks and CAN are ways this forum has come up with to handle the latter issue.

[OgreBattle]

is wearing plate armor going to increase your AC, give you DR, or soak in the game you're imagining?

I'd say a system where you roll to hit vs a targets evasiveness (reflex) and then they roll to soak (fort, or will for mind bolts) seems the most efficient. And then some mental attacks can skip the hit step and go straight to soak, and some poison attacks skip to hit and go straight to soak.

[Blicero]

is wearing plate armor going to increase your AC, give you DR, or soak in the game you're imagining?

I'd say a system where you roll to hit vs a targets evasiveness (reflex) and then they roll to soak (fort, or will for mind bolts) seems the most efficient. And then some mental attacks can skip the hit step and go straight to soak, and some poison attacks skip to hit and go straight to soak.

What I had for a heartbreaker I was working on a few years ago was that you had three defenses, Dodge, Willpower, and Tenacity. (Those names and the basic framework might have been taken from the TNE threads, I forget exactly.) Each defense had an Avoidance Attribute and a Soak Attribute associated with it.

So if someone swung a sword at you, they would roll against your Dodge Avoidance score (which was influenced by your Dexterity, the Dodge Avoidance Attribute) to see if they hit you. If they did, you would make a Dodge Soak roll (which was influenced by your Constitution, the Dodge Soak Attribute) to minimize the damage you took. And so on for Willpower and Tenacity.

Based on some theorycrafting I did with some friends, it seemed like it might be an okay basis. But Legend came out and I abandoned my project before I got a chance to do any serious math hammering or concept iteration.

[Schleiermacher]

If you are not doing the standard D&D defenses but are still making a medieval fantasy heartbreaker, having a set of three defenses that are essentially AC/Ref, Fort, Will seems like an okay setup to me. Also, the fact that, in 3E, most Fort and Will effects are save or dies but most Ref effects are not does not mean that any system necessarily has to subscribe to 3E's paradigm. Condition tracks and CAN are ways this forum has come up with to handle the latter issue.

Good point that even another heartbreaker (which my game will be) doesn't have to be wedded to the 3E paradigm, but while my game aims to have fewer SoDs than 3E it will still have them. As such, having SoDs that target Fort and Will and none that reasonably target AC/Ref and allow no other defense would be an issue.

is wearing plate armor going to increase your AC, give you DR, or soak in the game you're imagining?

I'd say a system where you roll to hit vs a targets evasiveness (reflex) and then they roll to soak (fort, or will for mind bolts) seems the most efficient. And then some mental attacks can skip the hit step and go straight to soak, and some poison attacks skip to hit and go straight to soak.

I'm using "soak roll vs. damage as a DC", yeah. Basically the system you describe although fortitude defense vs. things like poison isn't the same defense as damage soak. (although maybe it should be? I felt like that would make fortitude defense too valuable and create too many conditional modifiers -e.g, plate armor doesn't help you resist poison or a medusa's gaze.)

[Foxwarrior]

Having more defensive statistics increases the amount which it matters that the attacker has a messy golf bag of attack types. With more than one defense, against some enemies the defense distribution will be such that the attacker's favorite attack (or attack combo) is no longer the most useful one, and they'll have to diversify or attack someone else, either one of which makes combat a smidgen more interesting. However, if choosing your attack is supposed to have other concerns based on board state and such, having only one attack per defense type is likely to remove depth rather than adding it, and having too many attacks to choose from causes option paralysis, so condensing the set of defenses down to a nice handful is best.

And of course, in 3.5 a lot of classes very strongly favor targeting just one particular defense, making diversifying too hard and attacking someone else the only reasonable strategy, so obviously that limits you to using at least a few different enemy types per battle, making fights against a single monster totally unsupported by the mechanics .

[phlapjackage]

Best for what purpose? StreetSam doesn't care much about Glamour, for example, but Face does.

For the street samurai and magic user to be specific, as I don't touch the hacking part of the game.

Sams buy Aptitude (Favorite Weapon Skill), and look into martial arts for cherry picking. You can become an invincible melee machine of death with dual wielding. The downside is that you are in melee and get shot by people with guns. Nothing else is mandatory, but look into SURGE for Metagenetic Improvement for a cheap attribute point.

Mages are required by law to buy Restricted Gear 1 for Force 4 Power Focus, as well as a Mentor Spirit. Adepts want as many Ways as they can afford. Glamour is what every face wants, as it is one of the few ways to get more social dice.

You forgot the most important quality for a mage: the Magician quality

I agree with these choices, but I think SR is pretty good in that there are very few "must have" qualities, and alot of the qualities are just dependent on your character concept. Sams can be silent ninja-types, chromed combat monsters, the classic "front man" with neg/eti/etc and combat. Different qualities are better or worse for the different concepts.

I noticed that most of my sam-types tended to take Guts, +2 to resist fear/intimidation etc. Mages tended to take Focused Concentration, reduce or eliminate the penalties of sustaining a spell. Yeah, you can do it with sustaining foci, but maybe you want to spend the money/points on that sweet sweet power foci instead...