Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

[virgil]

Or you could just say the Endless Maze is unknowably large. Some say it's infinite, others say it's a spherical maze one light-hour in diameter. And neither can definitively prove their theories for one reason or another because.

[Kaelik]

Here is a picture of Mars through a telescope. Presumably this is a pretty advanced telescope by modern day standard, but one you could own, not the hubble.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... 540d1b.jpg

[DSMatticus]

I think you meant that for the other thread. That's the one we are arguing about space teleportation. This is the one where we are arguing about infinite mazes.

This is serious business Kaelik get your shit together.

[Username17]

Finite minotaurs cannot patrol an infinite sized maze because there is by definition an infinite number of things going on at all times that the minotaurs would want to respond to. Once you bring infinity into it, literally everything involved has to be one order of infinity or another or it's zero. You can't take any finite thing and spread it across infinity anything and get an effectively non-zero amount. So if there are finite patrollers, their response time is infinity. It's just fucking stupid.

Very big numbers can generate all kinds of useful coefficients. But if any number is infinity, every other number has to be a cardinality of infinity too or it all goes to shit.

-Username17

[DSMatticus]

Finite minotaurs cannot patrol an infinite sized maze because there is by definition an infinite number of things going on at all times that the minotaurs would want to respond to. Once you bring infinity into it, literally everything involved has to be one order of infinity or another or it's zero. You can't take any finite thing and spread it across infinity anything and get an effectively non-zero amount. So if there are finite patrollers, their response time is infinity. It's just fucking stupid.

Very big numbers can generate all kinds of useful coefficients. But if any number is infinity, every other number has to be a cardinality of infinity too or it all goes to shit.

-Username17

I believe Grek's hypothetical is "there is an infinitely large maze that is completely empty outside of a handful of finite regions containing a finite number of things, but Baphomet has some magical ability as the maze's ruler to detect interlopers anywhere in the infinite maze and dispatch some of his finite minotaurs from the finite regions they're occupying to intercept those interlopers." So as long as the number of people popping into the "empty" parts of the maze from the rest of the multiverse are finite (i.e., there's no infinite plane of tourists providing infinite busywork for the minotaurs), that "makes sense." It makes sense specifically because it removes the topology of the maze from the equation. Baphomet detects you regardless of your location in the maze and Baphomet can send minotaurs after you regardless of your location in the maze so your location in the maze is fundamentally irrelevant. It's stupid and adds nothing to the maze except the ability to wander around finding nothing and being harassed by minotaurs until Baphomet gives up, but it "makes sense."

[tussock]

Let's say that the Endless Maze contains an infinitely long tunnel, the center of which is the t-junction at which you must enter. There are a finite number of minotaurs distributed along this tunnel as per a normal distribution (the mean is the t-junction itself at zero and the standard deviation is one kilometer). How far into the tunnel must you travel before the probability of encountering another minotaur falls to exactly zero?

The thing about probability is it's only non-zero until you actually do your test of walking the corridor and finding the Minotaurs, and the chance of finding the last Minotaur from a finite set is fucking 100% once you find it. It doesn't matter if you had to reach a 40% chance to find him, or a 98% chance, or a 99.9999999999% chance, or a (1-1/1^100^100^100^100) chance, because you do find the fucker and then there's none left, after a finite search.

The chance of your search not being finite is zero. Because infinity. For any Minotaur to actually be still spawning at infinite distance, you have to distribute your finite set of Minotaurs an infinite number of times. Which you'll note is infinite Minotaurs.

That is always your choice. Infinite Minotaurs, or a finite space in which they all fit. It cannot be otherwise.

If the Endless Maze is infinite in size, but has a finite number of minotaurs guarding it,

You enter a maze-space no Minotaur has ever been, then you kill a fixed number of Minotaurs who teleport to your location (which is illegal BTB, you obviously can't uniquely identify any part of an infinite maze, duh, every possible identifier exists an infinite number of times). After you kill some of them, you plane-shift out because walking or teleporting or any finite travel function does nothing, you move to a maze-space no Minotaur has ever been, which is where you started.

You keep saying "infinite" when you really just mean "empty".

[Grek]

(which is illegal BTB, you obviously can't uniquely identify any part of an infinite maze, duh, every possible identifier exists an infinite number of times).

The unique identifier in this case is you. The minotaurs are not teleporting to a place in the maze, they are teleporting to you. That's now how Greater Teleport works, of course, but if we're making a campaign setting with new planes we can have the planar traits be whatever the fuck we want.

After you kill some of them, you plane-shift out because walking or teleporting or any finite travel function does nothing, you move to a maze-space no Minotaur has ever been, which is where you started.

You also have the option to teleport to Prime. Or open a portal between Prime and the Maze, to use as part of your planes to turn this maze section into a demiplane. Once you're got the sand and palm trees in, the place is distinct from the rest of the maze and you can access it reliably via planar magic. Which is, of course, the part that DSM keeps missing. The entire point to the maze being infinitely big is so that you can use it in the cosmology as "the place demiplanes go" without needing to make a new class of plane called "demiplane" with unique rules.

[Meikle641]

So, got some questions about an upcoming project. I'm going to be publishing an adventure module or two in the upcoming months, with the intent is marketing it as being used with either 3.5 or Pathfinder. So I assume the generic d20 logo would be the way to go there.

1) The OGL and Pathfinder and D&D. Near as I can tell, the Pathfinder license is the D&D OGL, with possibly a couple extra caveats. Just making sure the OGL will cover both systems.

2) Given the multitude of bullshit changes from 3.5 to Pathfinder, am I right in assuming I'd need to double-print every trap and monster?

[Blasted]

1) yes:

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is released under the Open Game License, meaning the core rules that drive the Pathfinder RPG system are available to anyone to use for free under the terms of the OGL. This compendium of rules, charts, and tables contains all of the open rules in the system, and is provided for the use of the community of gamers and publishers working with the system.

2) Depending on the abilities of the trap/monster. I think you'd get away with the traps and simple monsters. Once you get into spell(like) using monsters you're more likely to get bitten. You may find it easier to aim for one and point to the srd for the other system.

[tussock]

@Grek

Dude, you're layering house-rules on house-rules on complications to try and justify an empty place of your own definition to hang your demiplanes, but you're worried about having to define "demiplane"? Stop digging. You were wrong, it's fine, it happens, move on with life.

From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination.

[hyzmarca]

There is only one minotaur, but he has a Crystal Ball and a Ring of Greater Teleport

[radthemad4]

Meikle641: Pathfinder and 3.5 are interchangeable enough for home games (players probably won't care if you toss in the occasional PF monster, NPC or spell or something into a 3.5 game virtually unchanged or vice versa) but in a published adventure, you'd have to make them rules compliant.

Everything in Pathfinder gets a feat in every odd level, instead of level 1 and every multiple of 3. However, some 3.5 feats have been split, e.g. 3.5 improved trip is two separate feats in PF. The classes work differently so if you have a monster with class levels, you'd have to make it twice. Also, even monsters common to both are going to be at least slightly different in PF. PF has a thing called Favored Class Bonuses which has absolutely nothing to do with 3.5 Favored Class. There's a whole bunch of other changes that don't come to mind right now.

There's a whole bunch of other changes too that I didn't mention right now. So... yeah... it could be problematic.

[Antariuk]

TGD-related question: can someone point me to the thread where someone - I believe Frank - wrote a sample Q&A sequence for character generation (where the results point to class X or Y). Sorry for being so vague, but it's all I remember and Google nets me nothing so far.

P.S.: Meikle, I think it'd be a good idea to use PF as standard these days because it'll probably sell better with the PF compatibility logo in the cover than with a dustom d20 logo (IIRC the official d20 logo is a no-no because that license is long gone).

[ishy]

TGD-related question: can someone point me to the thread where someone - I believe Frank - wrote a sample Q&A sequence for character generation (where the results point to class X or Y). Sorry for being so vague, but it's all I remember and Google nets me nothing so far.

This one?

[Longes]

WFRPG 3rd edition GM section has a subsection "Why give rewards?". The need for an explanation makes me slightly sad.

[OgreBattle]

Is there any RPG out there that handles jousting well? As D&D is turn based it would be awkward to use the combat system as you have one knight move as the other stays still, and it feels like a cop out to just "roll a d20+whatever and compare!"


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Also, stunting like "I throw sand in his eyes" "I throw a cape over his head", "I swing across the chandelier", what's a good way to implement that without having everyone carrying around bags of sand all the time.

[Longes]

Is there any RPG out there that handles jousting well? As D&D is turn based it would be awkward to use the combat system as you have one knight move as the other stays still, and it feels like a cop out to just "roll a d20+whatever and compare!"


---

Also, stunting like "I throw sand in his eyes" "I throw a cape over his head", "I swing across the chandelier", what's a good way to implement that without having everyone carrying around bags of sand all the time.

For the first, take a look at Pendragon. I don't know what rules it is using, but it's an RPG about knights - it must have something.

[radthemad4]

Also, stunting like "I throw sand in his eyes" "I throw a cape over his head", "I swing across the chandelier", what's a good way to implement that without having everyone carrying around bags of sand all the time.

I kinda liked the idea of Pathfinder's Dirty Trick for the above (except Chandelier swinging) though you have to bring your own flavor. Grek made a version for Tome:

Dirty Trick (Tomeified) by Grek

As an attack action, make a Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 10 + the higher of your opponent's BAB or ranks in Perception + a stat bonus based on the affliction to be inflicted:

Con: Sickened, Deafened or (with the feat) Nauseated.
Dex: Entangled, Blinded or (with the feat) On Fire.
Wis: Shaken, Dazzled or (with the feat) Confused.

This condition lasts for 1 round. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds the DC, the penalty lasts 1 additional round. This penalty can usually be removed if the target spends a move action.

Edge Option: If you have the Edge on your target and you successfully play a dirty trick, you may make an attack against that opponent this round as a Swift action.

Has a Scaling Feat that can improve it:

Dirty Rotten Tricks [Combat]
That's just unsportsmanlike.
Benefits: This is a combat feat that scales with your Base Attack Bonus.

• +0: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a dirty trick.
• +1: You may perform a dirty trick as an immediate action.
• +6: The effects of your dirty tricks last an extra 1d4 rounds.
• +11: Your dirty tricks require a Standard action to remove rather than a Move action.
• +16: Add the following to the list of conditions you can cause with a dirty trick: on fire, nauseated, or confused.

I'm wondering if the feat should be a skill feat rather than a combat feat though.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Is there any RPG out there that handles jousting well? As D&D is turn based it would be awkward to use the combat system as you have one knight move as the other stays still, and it feels like a cop out to just "roll a d20+whatever and compare!"

Riddle of Steel (for all its flaws). Both participants usually use the simultaneous block/strike maneuver, after setting aside dice from their combat pool for horsemanship. It's remarkably coherent with the usual fightin' system.


For the stunting, Exalted was actually onto a good thing when it codified 'using the environment' as good material for stunts. I still remember a long-ago fight my group had in a harem because I stunted using one of the women's long ponytails for a spear-capture defense and another guy buried an enemy in a landslide of plush pillows. So throwing sand is stunt-worthy if the action is taking place in a sandy area like a gladiator arena or a beach, because it reinforces the fictional space.

[Longes]

Is there any RPG out there that handles jousting well? As D&D is turn based it would be awkward to use the combat system as you have one knight move as the other stays still, and it feels like a cop out to just "roll a d20+whatever and compare!"

Riddle of Steel (for all its flaws). Both participants usually use the simultaneous block/strike maneuver, after setting aside dice from their combat pool for horsemanship. It's remarkably coherent with the usual fightin' system.


For the stunting, Exalted was actually onto a good thing when it codified 'using the environment' as good material for stunts. I still remember a long-ago fight my group had in a harem because I stunted using one of the women's long ponytails for a spear-capture defense and another guy buried an enemy in a landslide of plush pillows. So throwing sand is stunt-worthy if the action is taking place in a sandy area like a gladiator arena or a beach, because it reinforces the fictional space.

The problem of Exalted's idea, other than mote restoration, is that every single dice roll becomes a mini-novel.

[angelfromanotherpin]

The problem of Exalted's idea, other than mote restoration, is that every single dice roll becomes a mini-novel.

The full Exalted treatment is of course a multiple-catastrophe pileup, not least because players tend to set their standards to Exalted's own overly-florid style. But mini-novels aren't a necessary result of 'add flavor text for a small bonus' mechanics. If the expectation is as simple as 'I kick sand at them and swing,' that's a totally reasonable time/entertainment ratio. As long as you don't tell people that they might get a slightly bigger bonus if they paint an entire word-mural for you, things stay pretty tight.

[Prak]

Is the 3.5 OGL still usable? Do I even need to invoke it if I'm just reproducing tables like you might see on a DM screen? What's Pathfinder's take on third party stuff and does it use an OGL?

[Meikle641]

This is what I'd found previously.
And this

[fbmf]

Is the flask rogue build spelled out anywhere? I mean, I get the basic concept, but is there level by level commentary?

Game On,
fbmf

[Kaelik]

The biggest thing is that there are 3.5 builds:

1) Less than level 6-8 when you get a ring of blinking.
2) Have Ring of Blink, but not level 10 yet, or past level 10 but no retraining.
3) Past level 10.
3.5) Your DM hates ring of blinking for some reason.

So basically an "optimal" level 1 Build would be a Strongheart Halfling with Halfling Rogue substitution level (although really, you don't have the money for flasks when you just start, so you will some daggers or something) and feats of TWFing and Quick Draw. Get Point Blank Shot at level 3, and Rapid Shot at level 6, and by then you have flasks easily. So at level 6 you do 5d6 damage on 3 attacks each round you get the full attack. But you still mostly rely on either stealthed surprise rounds or Wizard Greases for your ability to do that damage.

For added fun, if you are playing in a game where JaronK has an item familiar and iajitsu focus on his factotum, just have your item familiar be an item that casts Grease, and uses its action to do it, so you can use yours to full attack, and then cross class Iajitsu Focus so you can draw your improvised melee weapon flasks, and then point out that the iajitsu rules only say the weapon has to be a melee weapon, not that it has to be a melee attack. Requires at least one flaw, but whatever.

After you get the Ring of Blink you either always get SA against things that can't see invisible, or you run into 3.5) DM hates Ring of Blink. And then you are forced to revert to other bullshit.

Level 10 with retraining or starting at level 10: You declare yourself to be taking a Bonus Feat of "Superior Two Weapon Fighting" and then retrain all your TWFing feats into shit that is useful. Then DMs throw a fit because even though this is rules legal, and there is absolutely no reason to think that we know that WotC "intended" Rogues to have prereqs feats, and this is in no way overpowered at all, and is so not overpowered that it actually is not even 100% of what the level 0 ability of Tome TWFing is, that will still pull bans from whiny assholes who think that their Factotums can take as a single ability "The Casting of a level 18 Sorcerer" Because of some convoluted logic that they believe proves that Sorcerer casting is Ex, nevermind that if it is you can get the same casting by polymorphing.

So level 10 looks like 6 attacks at 7d6+10 each that almost always hit.