Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:06 am

Does Morgoth count as pre-1970?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:31 pm

I think Creatures of Light and Darkness is as good as you're likely to get.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:55 am

So, it's theoretically possible for a 5th level rogue to defeat the Tarrasque, I mean, they have to be prepared for it, with 200+ acid flasks, a potion of flight and an arrow of deeper darkness with a glue pot for a head, and it takes a good while, but they can do it.

So given that a fifth level character can defeat a creature with a supposed CR of 20 given time and preparation which is entirely within their WBL, what would it take to actually make the Tarrasque an actual threat to competent twentieth level characters? Would giving it a flight speed and ranged attacks be sufficient? I mean, assuming that flight speed is 60' or better so that it can't still be kited with a potion of Fly?

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:11 am

Really, Elder Evils does everything the Tarrasque wants to do far better than the Tarrasque has ever done it.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:34 am

Prak wrote:So, it's theoretically possible for a 5th level rogue to defeat the Tarrasque, I mean, they have to be prepared for it, with 200+ acid flasks, a potion of flight and an arrow of deeper darkness with a glue pot for a head, and it takes a good while, but they can do it.

So given that a fifth level character can defeat a creature with a supposed CR of 20 given time and preparation which is entirely within their WBL, what would it take to actually make the Tarrasque an actual threat to competent twentieth level characters? Would giving it a flight speed and ranged attacks be sufficient? I mean, assuming that flight speed is 60' or better so that it can't still be kited with a potion of Fly?

Have a colony of teleporting grappling thingies that activate antimagic fields once they grapple onto a target, letting the tarrasque then walk up and swallow 'em. They clean its teeth and scales like those little symbiotic fish that swim with sharks.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:03 pm

Prak wrote:So, it's theoretically possible for a 5th level rogue to defeat the Tarrasque, I mean, they have to be prepared for it, with 200+ acid flasks, a potion of flight and an arrow of deeper darkness with a glue pot for a head, and it takes a good while, but they can do it.

So given that a fifth level character can defeat a creature with a supposed CR of 20 given time and preparation which is entirely within their WBL, what would it take to actually make the Tarrasque an actual threat to competent twentieth level characters? Would giving it a flight speed and ranged attacks be sufficient? I mean, assuming that flight speed is 60' or better so that it can't still be kited with a potion of Fly?

Once you give the Tarrasque wings, you might as well use a big dragon.

What I did for my game was to give the Tarrasque a stunning and sonic-damaging roar (effectively a breath weapon, with recharge time short enough that it could juggle) for a ranged attack, beef up its AC, saves and spell immunity/reflection so it actually has good defenses for a CR 20, switch out its bullshit feats for ones that do useful things and give it much higher speed, including burrow speed. I didn't have any PCs that could go incorporeal or spam ability drain (like an Allip swarm) in my game, but if you have that it needs a way to deal with those too -preferably a way that's a little more interesting than "sorry, it's immune/can see and hit you regardless."

That way it became a legitimate tactical challenge because it forced the 20th level party to come to it and keep up the pressure if they wanted to defeat it -otherwise it would just rampage - and it retained a distinct niche different from the flying, ranged-attacking bruisers that are the entire rest of the CR 20 list.

This might be inadequate for your purposes depending on what you mean by a "competent" level 20 party and what sourcebooks you use -but in my experience the only thing that can stand up to a sufficiently determined and well-prepared party that includes full casters without having any fatal weak spots is an NPC full caster, and that quickly gets stale.

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:04 pm

If you want a good Tarrasque, you make it a campaign to defeat it, not a monster that you roll attacks against.

This means gathering allies, finding the anti-Tarrasque MacGuffin, getting help from gods, protecting the city...

Its like Lady of Pain right? If you give it a stat block, you've already failed to give big T what it is due.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:36 pm

Why do people care about making the tarrasque into a big threat anyway? What gives it so much cachet that people are troubled by its status as a fairly easily-killed monster?

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:02 pm

The Tarrasque is D&D's Godzilla. It's not really that surprising that people want to be able to have a meaningful showdown with Godzilla.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:03 pm

John Magnum wrote:Why do people care about making the tarrasque into a big threat anyway? What gives it so much cachet that people are troubled by its status as a fairly easily-killed monster?

For the same reason that dragons are given top billing for threat. It was described as civilization-level threat back in '77, and none have seen reason to treat it less.

This reminds me of many DMs treating anything with a Name as Better-Than-You(tm). Be it making Medusa some kind of epic threat, DMPC insert wizards, or even Aragorn 'obviously' being level 20 and therefore those orcs are CR 10. Is there a term for whatever it is that makes DMs set players to the bottom of the narrative totem pole for this to happen?

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:02 pm

virgil wrote:Is there a term for whatever it is that makes DMs set players to the bottom of the narrative totem pole for this to happen?

Inferiority Complex?

dictionary wrote: noun
1.
Psychiatry. intense feeling of inferiority, producing a personality characterized either by extreme reticence or, as a result of overcompensation, by extreme aggressiveness.

Seems fitting to me. (namely, the overcompensation through extreme aggressiveness)

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:36 pm

John Magnum wrote:Why do people care about making the tarrasque into a big threat anyway? What gives it so much cachet that people are troubled by its status as a fairly easily-killed monster?

Because the Tarrasque is awesome! (conceptually), and I never really thought to describe him as Godzilla, though close enough for my inspirations. I've likened the idea its this giant puzzle monster that you're not supposed to be able to simply just Melee it w/no knowledge (unless you're at proper level, and/or that good I suppose?). The fact he becomes a parody I'm fine with for some reason, I guess because its funny, and therefore ok.

As for people freaking out about it being easily defeated, it can be some type of anti-learning notion, not wanting to dispel the mythic quality they were taught. It can also be the reality of the ruleset for that game crashing on their heads, realizing the game isn't as what they thought it was, and thusly they take it personally for that.

Though the Tarrasque is distinguished by the fact it cannot be fully killed by buttstabbing, you have to use a "plot-manipulation" power or Wish spell to fully defeat it. Also, it seemingly has anti-wizard defenses, that most bruisers seem to not have (to those who didn't read the MM, and notice the truly awesome monsters like Angels and junk).

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:44 pm

Well, I mean, it does have that reflective shell thing.

But seriously, rogue with a CL11 fly potion, and 2220 acid flasks. Acid overcomes it's DR, a TWF Flask Rogue does 48 points of acid damage per turn on average, which means that 8 points of nonlethal stick around after regen. You have to do 868 points of damage to subdue it, so you just fly in front of it lobbing acid flask sneak attacks for 109 rounds or just under 11 minutes. You start combat by firing an arrow with Deeper Darkness cast on it at the beast, with a glue pot head instead of a tip, because you just need the thing shrouded in darkness, not damaged by the arrow. With Big T shrouded in a 60'radius Darkness effect, you have concealment from him. Oh, I guess you need some Devil's Sight goggles, whoopdido.

But no, I was thinking about a Legendary for Team Zhentar to be going after in my Pokemon D&D game. The Tarrasque has the cache, so I was looking at making him a pokemon, and giving him a mega evolution.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:48 pm

Something I've thought would be interesting is to make the Tarrasque somewhat of a planar anomaly - the area within, say, 100' of it counts as being a separate demiplane, not part of the prime material.

While sentient creatures can fairly easily cross the border (Charisma check, DC 5, perhaps), unattended objects and effects are stopped cold. When the Tarrasque moves, the barrier flows over stationary objects, so it doesn't inherently destroy everything, but it could definitely cause some damage to any moving machinery just by walking past it.

Combine that with patching some obvious holes (add immunity to ability drain, give it a ranged attack or simply enough jumping+reach), and it should be pretty dangerous to fight.

I don't think the demiplane needs to have different rules, but it could (impeded magic? heavier gravity?) if you want to make things harder.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:20 pm

Actually I was thinking of giving the Tarrasque a destructive aura, since it's supposed to be this big fuck-all avatar of Destruction.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:34 pm

How about turning it into lavos, he shoots spines that can knock out cities so you can't just leave him alone.

angelfromanotherpin · Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:49 pm

See, it's actually perfectly in-character for the Tarrasque to be murdered by commoners, because that's exactly what happened in the myth it's drawn from.

Saint Martha found the beast and charmed it with hymns and prayers, and led back the tamed Tarasque to the city. The people, terrified by the monster, attacked it when it drew nigh. The monster offered no resistance and died there.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:54 am

Is M&M an appropriate system for Lord of Light themed game?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:45 am

I'd hack up Exalted. It does exactly the things you want: powers are random and disproportionate, and most of the game is either building kingdoms to fight other kingdoms, sleeping around, or politicking. The actual combat is all trying to parlay your crazy random abilities into an unanswerable win. Also, crafting = real ultimate power is a setting feature.

Edit: on second thought, hacked Amber Diceless might be an even better system.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:42 am

No point in hacking exalted. You would have to burn the entire thing down and start from scratch anyway.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:48 am

I'm considering running a Mutants and Masterminds game. What should I be aware of or watch out for?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:05 am

You have to watch out for power combinations, like in any game. M&M isn't BESM-level fragile, but it can be abused. It's probably best to lay down rules like "If you completely compensate for [Drawback/Flaw], it's not a [X], and you don't get points." Like, if someone takes Drawback: Disability (Blindness, ) for 5 points, and then takes Supersense: Blindsight (4pts), it's not really a drawback, now is it? That's a minor example, netting only a single point, but there are others, like you could take Paraplegic twice to represent a quadripelgic, getting 8 points, and then take even just a single rank of Flight for 2 points. Or have a techno-hoveround with Flight.

The book talks about Disabilities having different values for people with powers that obviate them, but honestly, it's probably better to just flat out say no to that sort of thing.

Also look out for variable powers. They can be very versatile, depending on how they're built, and they can be time sinks for the player. Summon Minion was one of my favourites, it can be bought cheaply and give you customizeable pokemon for every situation.

Edit: more elabouration on Summon Minion- Lets say I'm playing a demon summoner- I would build my summon power like-
Summon Minion (2 pt/r)
+Fanatical (+1 pt/r)
+Heroic (+1 pt/r)
+Broad Type (+2 pt/r)
-Action- Full Round (-1 pt/r)

Comes out to 5 pt/r. With that, I can summon a minion that I get to build with 15 points per rank of Summon Minion I have, which means that by putting a third of my points into my power, I get to summon a hero-level threat that is specially prepared for whatever circumstance we find ourselves in.

Now, after I buy the power up to a number of ranks equal to the campaign power level, I can then put additional points in to increase the number of minions I can have, each point increases the number I can summon along the Time and Progression Table (which goes 1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100 etc). If I then increase the cost per rank by another point, I can add the Horde extra to my Summon Minions power, allowing me to call all my buddies at once.

If you allow the use of Ultimate Power, I can then add more flaws onto my power, like Requires Check, meaning I just make a skill check to use my power, DC 10+rank. Remember, skills are 1 pt./4 ranks. This would bring the Horde version back down to 5pt/r.

If I really felt like filling my boots with gouda, I would actually have a Demon Summoning Staff, which would be a device using these same sort of tricks to get my Summon Demons on even more cheaply. Devices cost 3 or 4 points per rank, depending on how easy it is to take away, and give 5 points to use to buy powers. So if the game is PL 5, then clearly I want Summon Minion 5, and maybe Progresson 5, allowing me to summon up to 50 demons. That would be 30 (of my 75) points. So instead, I put that in a staff. It can be taken with a disarm, so it's 3 points. My device needs to be rank 6, so I'm spending 18 points to be able to pop 50 PL5 guys I make to spec.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:14 pm

Reading through the adventure seeds in the lower planes, it got me wondering what happens to someone (not native) who physically dies in one of these planes? Do they respawn without all of their swag?

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:48 pm

They die and go on to their afterlife of choice. Which may be the same plane they died on, or may not be.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:53 pm

Fectin wrote:Materials include blue ice, which is the basis of many exploits

This came up in the 5e thread. I was curious what was so exploitable about blue steel, but I just see mithral that's really cold. So what are the exploits that are based on blue steel?