Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:12 am

Prak wrote:Sorry, "No PC Spellcasters." Because Gandalf's not a PC, he's a DMPC.

Gandalf is not the only caster. But if you want to play 4th age or middle earth peasants, then that's your prerogative I suppose. But Middle Earth doesn't mean no magic for PCs. Again, I linked the spell spheres that MERP used for player characters. You could be a starting character and a caster in MERP.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:20 am

Ok, I'm not a Middle Earth Scholar who has memorized the Silmarillion, so the only spellcasters I know of in Middle Earth are
-The Maiar
-Galadriel(?)
-"The Necromancer" (wasn't this an alias of Sauron?)
-Maybe Tom Bombadil, unless some songs are just magic?

I mean, I may be a lazy sod who didn't make it through FotR, but there are not a lot of spellcasters in the primary source material for Middle Earth.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:19 am

The Mouth of Sauron is explicitly described as a sorcerer, and most people would grant that since Beorn turns into an outsized bear by his own enchantment, he also counts. And of course the Witch-King has spellcasting that's entirely distinct from his being an undead abomination. But of course, the dwarves of Thorin's company also explicitly put spells on things – their magic just happens to be low-level and also unimpressive.

You can do a lot to preserve the flavor of middle-earth magic by just keeping spells low-key: Charm Person, cool; Detect Magic, cool; Prismatic Spray, uncool. Although honestly, a guy who goes into fights and busts out a flash of rainbow light that leaves enemies senseless is perfectly in keeping with the kind of thing you see in the Hobbit, so I think you can get away with a lot if you just present it in the right way.

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:24 am

can add to that:
Aragorn, Elrond, Radagast, Saruman, Beorn, Grima Wormtongue, Glorfindel, Arwen (in the movie explicitly)

Saruman and Radagast are angels/istari/wizards like Gandalf so they can be tossed out as casting NPCs like the Balrog and Nazgul witch king.

There's likely others, I'm just a bit rusty. Many more unnamed characters, and especially more if you go back to earlier ages/Silmarillion.

The magic in MERP is not as in-your-face as in DnD. They have a whole sphere dealing with basically "Knock" in which Gandalf and the Balrog have a brief Knock/MageLock duel until the door is destroyed under the pressure. There's plenty of magic in Middle Earth, it just is low-key usually.

You still have room for uber badasses who are magical without being explicit spellcasters. Legolas is the bestest archer in the land a deadeye shot with a 150lb draw bow, 5000 years old and can walk atop of snow when the rest of the fellowship has to trudge on through it, but Gimli still manages to be a more prolific slayer of Orcs using only hand-weapons.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:28 am

SAGA edition was the dry run to 4E and I wonder why the end game wound up being so radically different. The At-Will/Encounter/Daily power things, 30 levels instead of 20, no condition track, etc.

Skill Challenges bugged me again today. SAGA explicitly had Skill Challenges and even termed them Skill Challenges. Everybody thought the math was off and the concept was crap and people were advised to not use Skill Challenges when running published adventures like Dawn of Defiance and The Fell Star.

So why in the world did they insist on having them in 4E? Whose pet little subsystem was that? I think it goes beyond Mearls. He doesn't have an idea and hold onto it for years, typically.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:35 am

Forgot about Beorn. Huh, ok, cool.

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:18 am

To nerd-sperg a bit more on MERP...

I take MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing) to be the next best thing to canon for Middle Earth since it was officially licensed and made back in the mid-80's before the license was used to make mad money. And they really did their homework. It has a hefty selected readings at the back and a heart-felt assertion that everything they did was intended to have no conflict with the primary source material (note: 'no conflict' doesn't mean that they don't take liberties, just they they only do so where it presents no conflict).

While MERP is a Rolemaster game and full of design flaws, I did appreciate that you could start as a level 1 character and start with spell lists. If you choose the Spell List background then you could start with 1 spell list as any class. An elf mage could likely begin with 3 spell lists at level 1.

The mechanics for learning spell lists were terrible. Each rank in the skill gave you a 20% chance to learn a new list on level-ups... so you can imagine great asymmetry between good rollers and bad as you progress in levels, or even at the onset since you roll for your stats with percentile dice.

But still, if anyone wanted to roll in with a half-orc mage, a hobbit warrior with lightning magic, a beorning ranger with healing magic (and bear shapechange), a half-troll warrior with illusion magic, or a dwarf scout with sneaking magic, the rules totally supported it.

Your background could also let you start with a minor magic item or if you put every background point into it, a fairly impressive magic item or an array of minor items.

At level 1 your magic is pretty low key. Like a gust of wind, minor auditory illusion, improved running speed, heat resistance, but once you know a sphere you just keep advancing it as you level up.

Damn. I almost feel like doing a OSSR of MERP some time... when I have time.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:19 am

erik wrote:And they really did their homework. It has a hefty selected readings at the back and a heart-felt assertion that everything they did was intended to have no conflict with the primary source material (note: 'no conflict' doesn't mean that they don't take liberties, just they they only do so where it presents no conflict).

This is not true at all. For example: The Ring of Barauhir. In the source material it is explicitly a non-magical item. In MERP, it's a fucking 70th level Ring of Dragon-warding and a x6 Power Point enhancer; i.e. absurdly magical. That kind of shit is all over the place.

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:53 am

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
erik wrote:And they really did their homework. It has a hefty selected readings at the back and a heart-felt assertion that everything they did was intended to have no conflict with the primary source material (note: 'no conflict' doesn't mean that they don't take liberties, just they they only do so where it presents no conflict).
This is not true at all. For example: The Ring of Barauhir. In the source material it is explicitly a non-magical item. In MERP, it's a fucking 70th level Ring of Dragon-warding and a x6 Power Point enhancer; i.e. absurdly magical. That kind of shit is all over the place.

Hrm. My ignorance/bias is showing since I only had the first/main book, none of the other stuff. So my experience was not tainted with such items.

Nothing like that really jumps out at me in the main book.

I did forget that non-casting classes have a cap on their highest level spell known, so rogues only get up to level 5 sneaky magic, and warriors only up to level 3. It's been a while.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:49 am

Insomniac wrote:SAGA edition was the dry run to 4E and I wonder why the end game wound up being so radically different. The At-Will/Encounter/Daily power things, 30 levels instead of 20, no condition track, etc.

Skill Challenges bugged me again today. SAGA explicitly had Skill Challenges and even termed them Skill Challenges. Everybody thought the math was off and the concept was crap and people were advised to not use Skill Challenges when running published adventures like Dawn of Defiance and The Fell Star.

So why in the world did they insist on having them in 4E? Whose pet little subsystem was that? I think it goes beyond Mearls. He doesn't have an idea and hold onto it for years, typically.

Skill Challenges went from 4e to SAGA and not the other way around. Galaxy of Intrigue came out like 20 months into 4e's life cycle. SAGA was of course a dying mastadon at that point, and they were trying desperately to "fix" Skill Challenges by just having people write skill challenge rules over and over again in the hopes that they wouldn't suck if they just did it one more time.

Remember, they were desperate to salvage 4e, since it was the flagship RPG of the company and also their department was getting layoffs every year it continued to circle the drain. So using some SAGA books to try to playtest some desperation ploys was a natural plan.

I still don't know why they never thought of just moving the fucking things to a set number of rounds and having players benefit the team by contributing even shitty skill rolls. It doesn't make any sense now and it didn't make any sense then.

-Username17

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:55 pm

Oh right, that is how it went. Skill Challenges weren't the early 3 core books. So they were using SAGA to try to fix Skill Challenges. Bizarre.

Theoretically, it should have an easier time working in SAGA. Skills matter more, there are feats and talents that tweak and amplify skills and they have a much larger skill list with more delineated uses for the skills as well as a wildcard, Use The Force, which could essentially be used to work for nearly anything in a Skill Challenge.

Thanks Frank for the clarification and insight.

silva · Post by **silva** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:17 pm

Prak wrote:Ok, so let's say someone wants to play d20 Middle Earth (I don't know why either, perhaps they were dropped on their heads as a child and then also really liked the hobbit movies)...

But what would you actually need to do to make this work beyond saying "No spellcasters" and explicitly saying that most of the more powerful monsters are exceedingly rare?

Just take some cues from The One Ring RPG. It's the best depiction of the Hobbit on tabletop gaming I've seen. And yes, "no spellcasters" is pretty much spot on. There are low-key spell-like effects but these are more related to racial feats and cultural charms than "spells" properly.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:53 am

Prak wrote:But what would you actually need to do to make this work beyond saying "No spellcasters" and explicitly saying that most of the more powerful monsters are exceedingly rare?

Honestly, I think if you wanted to do LotR d20, you'd want to make your basic "races" be Soldier, Cavalry, Thief, Archer, Noble, Ringbearer and Witch while your "classes" are Hobbit, Elf, Dwarf, Orc, Gondorian, Dúnadan, Rohirrim, Troll, Animal and Werecreature. If you want to be half one thing and half the other, you multiclass.

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:58 am

Grek wrote:
Prak wrote:But what would you actually need to do to make this work beyond saying "No spellcasters" and explicitly saying that most of the more powerful monsters are exceedingly rare?
Honestly, I think if you wanted to do LotR d20, you'd want to make your basic "races" be Soldier, Cavalry, Thief, Archer, Noble, Ringbearer and Witch while your "classes" are Hobbit, Elf, Dwarf, Orc, Gondorian, Dúnadan, Rohirrim, Troll, Animal and Werecreature. If you want to be half one thing and half the other, you multiclass.

I'm failing to see why the category that describes your profession has to not be the thing that you get better at as you grow in level.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:15 pm

Because that's how it works in Lord of the Rings. Frodo's usefulness from the Fellowship isn't because he has the ring, it's from the fact that he is the most hobbity hobbit and can resist its temptation really well. Aragorn is a badass because he's the most Dúnadany of the Dúnadan and then also becomes King of Gondor. The best Orcs are impressive because they're so Orcly they spell their name "Uruk" instead. And so on and so forth.

silva · Post by **silva** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:05 pm

Agree with Grek here.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:52 pm

As usual, silva's approval should fill you with shame.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:49 pm

Question: why does the sorcerer have the increased casting time for metamagiced spells and the caster level hitch? Is it a (misguided) attempt to balance it with the wizard?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:20 pm

Because Skip hates sorcerers.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:10 pm

Wooow, 7th Sea. Wooow.

Murder in 7th Sea
In the 7th Sea game system, characters are not killed, they are Knocked Out. Even gunfire cannot kill someone without a deliberate act from a Hero or a Villain. That act is called murder. Murder is always an Evil Act, under any and all circumstances.
Heroes do not commit murder. Ever. Self defense is not murder, but it is killing. Heroes only kill when they are forced to by Villains and their cronies. Heroes do not enjoy killing, they regret it. The act haunts some Heroes to their graves.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:13 pm

7th Sea, where you ride cannonballs into battle!

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:19 pm

So 1.) It's impossible to kill someone without deliberately taking the "Murder" action. 2.) Heroes do not commit Murder, EVER, but sometimes in self-defense they kill. 3.) ???????????

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:24 pm

Ah yes, sorcerer metamagic, for which there was actually a clarification somewhere that casting a Quickened spell was a full-round action.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:24 pm

Ancient History wrote:7th Sea, where you ride cannonballs into battle!

But only if you bought Riding (cannonball) advanced knack.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:07 am

Grek wrote:Because that's how it works in Lord of the Rings. Frodo's usefulness from the Fellowship isn't because he has the ring, it's from the fact that he is the most hobbity hobbit and can resist its temptation really well. Aragorn is a badass because he's the most Dúnadany of the Dúnadan and then also becomes King of Gondor. The best Orcs are impressive because they're so Orcly they spell their name "Uruk" instead. And so on and so forth.

At the risk of agreeing with Silva here, this actually is a really interesting idea, especially for a game with an abbreviated level progression, like the thing I'm working on inspired by Battle of the Five Armies.

So what if class and race were flipped, and the thing that improves with experience through levels is your species--as you gain experience your elven essence becomes stronger--and the thing that just predisposes you to be better at certain things and gets lost in the forest of character advancement is your profession--whatever your trade is, you advance the skills that are important to the adventure.

So, as an example, Bilbo Baggins is an Aristocrat Hobbit. As an Aristocrat, he has minor bonuses to diplomacy and probably some kind of regionally limited "they know me here" deal, but his real importance is that he's a hobbit, and thus has stealth abilities and greater resistance to enchantment--particularly evil enchantment, maybe something like Magic Circle Against Evil.

Class skills probably make little sense in a set up like this. You could probably attach some iconic skills to the species, maybe do something like Pathfinder where the iconic skills for your species get a bonus, but nothing prevents you or punished you for having ranks in non-"class" skills.

Off the top of my head, "classes" for this model would at least include:

Man- Go with the "humans are batman" idea, so that Men get resilience and endurance abilities.
Elf- Natural archers and project an aura of nobility that basically means they can make people do what they want, inherent Weapon Finesse. Trick shot and perception abilities.
Dwarf- Natural craftsmen, get abilities related to such, including creating magical items
Smallfolk*- Basically hobbits, they are natural sneaks, and have a strong agricultural tradition. Clearly the former matters a lot more than the latter.
Orc*- Magically bred living warmachines. They are generically apt with weapons, very strong, and become resistant to more an more things as their essence strengthens.

Branch species are handled as alternate class features, so wood elves trade the "I'm better than you" aura of a high elf for being good with animals and a Disney Princess woodland summoning ability, dark elves might trade the archery stuff for a crossbow motif, etc. Half breeds cold be handled similarly, through a feat, or simple multi-classing.