[Dom3] Brainstorming for a late era draft game.

K · Post by K » Fri May 04, 2012 9:43 pm

Mmmm, I must have confused the underwater recruitment and underwater fort building with underwater PD.

That being said, altering a pre-existing nation with underwater PD and then changing its name/flags should be no harder for monkey/giant undead.

Since the mod thinks that the new nation IS the old nation, it should allow the new power. I think what they meant by "hardcoded" is that there was no extra mod command for those powers.

Still, it'd have to be tested.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri May 04, 2012 9:52 pm

What if the auction bidding was done in rounds? You bid, in secret, for an advantage. Then, whoever wins pays an amount of points equal to the average bid.

Once all the advantages are auctioned off, people can submit their remaining points (again secretly) into the different categories of unit drafts, and the drafts are in order of the points spent.

So if you get beaten out for all the cool advantages, at least you have a block of points and can guaranty yourself access to the Starspawn.

-Username17

K · Post by K » Fri May 04, 2012 10:42 pm

The problem with any secret bid is that people are not going to bid if there is some downside to failed bidding later on. Even a successful overbid will lead to a weakened nation.

Personally, I know that I don't value the chance to get reanimating more than a decent bid in the build-only or capital mages round.

I think making the special power a regular draft round and making sure that there are good options in that round is the way to go. The nature of the draft is to try to keep things relatively equal among the various nations and reward good choices among the available options, and not just reward people who win a bidding mini-game through blind luck.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Sat May 05, 2012 3:38 am

Frank's suggestion might work if you did instantaneous runoff scaling (this is like instantaneous runoff voting, in that you only send in one sets of bids and then it scales things for you). It wouldn't really work for 3 people, but the math is easier to explain.

So the following set of bids of 1000 points total:
Reanimating Priests?
A bids 100, B bids 200, C bids 150
Sacrificedom?
A bids 50, B bids 0, C bids 100
Mages (to bid early)
A bids 450, B bids 400, C bids 700
Troops (to bid early)
A bids 400, B bids 400, C bids 50

Would be resolved thusly:
1st, B pays the avg. (150) for Reanimating Priests. A gets +10%, B gets +5%, C gets +15%.
2nd, C pays the avg. (50) for Reanimating Priests. A gets +5%, B gets +0%, C gets +5%.
3rd, the bids are upadjusted by +15%/+5%/+20% respectively, to 517, 420, 840. So mages are picked in the order C, A, B.
4th, same things with these bids, to 460, 420, 60. So troops are picked in the order A, B, C.

But I still think that this is too complicated to actually be viable.

--DrP

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat May 05, 2012 4:38 am

No, the way it would work is:

Reanimating Priests?
A bids 100, B bids 200, C bids 150

B gets the Reanimating Priests, and now you go to the next round, where A and C have 1000 points left and B has 850.

When you're giving out a large number of powers of variable strength and utility, you're going to need some sort of point system to ration them out. And the only way you're going to be able to price this stuff in any way that is remotely fair would be to let markets create price points. You bid the most you'd be willing to pay, and you pay the average of what the table thinks the advantage is worth.

I mean, Akula gibbers unspeakably about the awesome power of Blood Sacrifice. Now, he gets the basic mechanics wrong, ranting about how you get 11 temple checks a turn from a temple with a blood sacrificer. This is not how it works under any circumstances. If you got a Jade Knife and a Sacrifice Dominion and a H3 Priest, then you would have the opportunity to sacrifice 6 slaves a turn to generate 7 temple checks. While there are circumstances where that would be worth doing, for the most part it is difficult for me to see how that could matter. When I see rants by CBM people about how broken the Jade Knife is, I hear horror stories of people pulling Domkills... on turn 150. I have never seen a multiplayer game go 150 turns. Perpetuality didn't go 150 turns.

But sure, some people really like sacrifice dominion, and some people really don't, and the people who really like it will bid high to get it and the people who don't want it or care will bid low so they don't end up paying for it, and the people who wanted it will feel they got a good deal and the people who didn't want it will feel they got a good deal by ripping off the other guy and everyone is happy. Except, I suppose, the guy who wanted it almost as much as the guy who actually got it, who will probably feel that the other guy got the power for too cheap. But at least almost everyone is happy.

-Username17

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sat May 05, 2012 7:58 am

Now, he gets the basic mechanics wrong, ranting about how you get 11 temple checks a turn from a temple with a blood sacrificer. This is not how it works under any circumstances. If you got a Jade Knife and a Sacrifice Dominion and a H3 Priest, then you would have the opportunity to sacrifice 6 slaves a turn to generate 7 temple checks.

2 checks per slave, that is just how it works. You don't even know the mechanic, and that doesn't stop you from spouting off thinking you are an expert. Just like movement being stopped by losing provinces in the magic phase, this is somewhere where I am right and you are wrong.

K · Post by K » Sat May 05, 2012 8:32 am

I see problems with that. Like the real economy, the flawed assumption is that people are going to be able to rationally price their options appropriately.

First, I think a lot of people are going to end up with spare points. They are going to either not win a substantial number of bids because of blind luck or not want to bid on certain options (for example, there are lots of rational reasons to not want a Cold 2-favored nation). This will lead to either overbidding in the later parts of the draft on things they don't care about in order to "get something" or just the sad situation of people having the bidding end with nothing left to spend on.

Other people are going to be points poor, again because of the luck of the bid. Maybe several of them might bid high because they incorrectly think that other people will bid low and put the averages down and they want a safe margin to win. I mean, if someone bids 800/1000 on reanimation and someone else bids 700, winning doesn't matter because that guy is totally boned. He may not have the ability to win anything later.

Third, some people are just going to make out really well for no good reason at all. Maybe they put in token bids on things that aren't appreciated and end up with the lion's share of the special powers because no one bid on them (or the others put in slightly smaller token bids). Again, this is entirely based on luck.

The most telling is just how not fun bidding is. The unit draft is fun because each player is trying to cherrypick the best of what's left and it's moderately fair since no one can dominate the process, but bidding is going to involve people just getting boned for reasons that are not their fault. I imagine they might not want to actually play the game then.

I mean, it's like playing DnD and rolling up a character with no stat above 9 and several below 6. The randomness of the roll may be fair, but it's not conducive to a good play experience.

The straight draft still seems the best. Like the other rounds, the clear winners of each category go the winner of that round of the draft and it's fair because of the fact that a bad draft order in one category is offset by a good draft order in another.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat May 05, 2012 8:43 am

Akula wrote:
Now, he gets the basic mechanics wrong, ranting about how you get 11 temple checks a turn from a temple with a blood sacrificer. This is not how it works under any circumstances. If you got a Jade Knife and a Sacrifice Dominion and a H3 Priest, then you would have the opportunity to sacrifice 6 slaves a turn to generate 7 temple checks.
2 checks per slave, that is just how it works. You don't even know the mechanic, and that doesn't stop you from spouting off thinking you are an expert. Just like movement being stopped by losing provinces in the magic phase, this is somewhere where I am right and you are wrong.

Well, according to these guys, it is indeed two temple checks per blood slave, and not one temple check as stated in the manual. I was just going by the manual, because it's the only source I have other than "some guy on the internet said".

However, even these people who are making this claim and writing dominion push guides are basically making themselves a laughing stock. Seriously: 10 turns of all-out dominion war to kill a player in the late game? The game is over on turn 60 in most cases. 10 turns is a really long time.

-Username17

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sat May 05, 2012 9:14 am

If an game is NOT an VP game, then most games only end by turn 60 because people quit.
I never saw an game without VP with an proper end (ie IG-Message of someone winning), except by Blood Magic.

So I am able to agree with Frank and K for VP games, but those seem to be still the minority.
(sample size, only games where I played)

Edit: will this game be an VP game?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat May 05, 2012 9:50 am

Even games without VPs, games end by turn 100. Someone turns the sun off or puts up the Astral Corruption or simply cracks the world in half by wishing for armageddon. And then people surrender in droves. Once people start going AI or simply staling, or pulling in permanent subs who "just want to fuck around", player morale in the remaining holdouts plummets quickly.

Playing without VPs is pretty pointless, because it ends up being "play until one guy (or coalition) is powerful enough that the game simply isn't fun anymore".

K wrote:First, I think a lot of people are going to end up with spare points.

No. No one is going to end up with spare points, because no one can have spare points. The points you have left over that you didn't buy advantages with are spent on draft orders for troops and commanders. So anyone who spent less points on advantages will by definition have more points to spend on draft order.

You'd probably want to orchestrate a couple rules like:

You can't actually bid more points on a specific advantage than would leave you with 150 points left if you got it for that price.
When you spend points on draft order, you have to spend a different amount of points on each draft pick.

With those two together, there should be a minimum of drafts where eight people spent zero and you just go random anyway.

-Username17

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sat May 05, 2012 10:01 am

Manual is wrong. Just now tested it with LA Mictlan.
From 1 candle to 7 candles with an imprissioned Dom10 pretender and an Prophet saccing for one turn (turn 3 to turn 4), Prophet was made from turn 2 to turn 3.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sat May 05, 2012 10:07 am

WTF Frank, turn 60 to 100 is a pretty Heavy goalpost shifting.
Anyway you said the same thing as I did. Games with no VP's end because players loose interest and quit. The only exception I ever saw was blood sac win.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat May 05, 2012 1:08 pm

I've never actually seen a game still on by turn 100. Radiance ended on turn seventy something from surrender to the majesty of Utterdark + Astral Corruption. Denizens ended on turn 82 to ennui. For games with a defined victory objective, literally the latest I've ever seen a game go is turn 81 (VaeVictis: victory Marignon). Usually I see it end before turn 60 (Ancients: turn 54: victory Atlantis, or Oldest Profession: turn 59: victory Ulm).

In any case, by turn 60, there is generally a clear leader or two. And the idea that someone could dom kill a powerful late game position is frankly preposterous. For fuck's sakes: at the end of Ancients, Atlantis had 58 provinces and a domstrength of 10 in a lot of them.

-Username17

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Sat May 05, 2012 1:46 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:No, the way it would work is:
Reanimating Priests?
A bids 100, B bids 200, C bids 150

B gets the Reanimating Priests, and now you go to the next round, where A and C have 1000 points left and B has 850.

So, instead of giving A and C 1,000 points to bid and B 850 points to bid, you could take all of A & C's future bids and scale them up, so that everyone has 1,150 points to bid, effectively. Mathematically it's more or less the same (it's not quite identical because A/(A+X) != A-X, but it's close enough).

I agree that this system would be reasonably fair but it would still take forever because you'd have to do multiple rounds of bidding (!). Then, after you do sequential rounds of bidding, you go on to do sequential rounds of drafting? No way.

So, instead, this is what you do:

[1] You take a sheet, with every single available unit, and every single available spell, and every single available advantage and you bid on all of them at once. However much you bid, all of your bids are going to be scaled to total 1000.

[2] Now, the single highest bid (after scaling), is taken and whoever bid gets what they bid for; assuming they are "eligible" (so you can't have more than 2 capital-only mages, for example). They "pay" X = the average original-scale bid for all players, which means from now on their total bid is scaled to 1000-X, instead of to 1000 (this is mathematically the same as what I said before but is probably easier to understand); and the entire universe of bids is rescaled, so anyone who didn't get #sacrificedom now doesn't have #sacrificedom included in the denominator when their other bids are scaled, meaning all their other bids effectively get bigger.

[3] Repeat until everyone has the maximum number of choices they can take in each category, or until no bids are left.

A few advantages will be available more than once. Sacrifice dom can be taken up to 3 times. You could even have "freedom from disadvantage X" bids, where you let 8/10 players not have the nopreach disadvantage, and so on.

But the point is that it wouldn't require rounds of anything, since the rounds would be handled internally by the script that processes the procedure, as soon as everyone turned in their bidding sheets.

By the way - the gaming den doesn't allow you to post files. It's been a while since I passed around an excel spreadsheet. How do kids post files now a days?

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sat May 05, 2012 6:38 pm

DrPraetor wrote:By the way - the gaming den doesn't allow you to post files. It's been a while since I passed around an excel spreadsheet. How do kids post files now a days?

I think google docs sheets are all the rage.

Also that bidding thing sounds really complex and not a whole lot of fun.

K · Post by K » Sat May 05, 2012 7:32 pm

I think "not being fun" and "less fair and less balanced than a draft" are the major flaws to these complicated bidding systems.

I mean, the draft format may not be the most mathematically beautiful, but it has the merit of people knowing that going early in some rounds is going to be good and that's offset by going early in other rounds.

For example, in the MA draft, the H3s and Seraphine were going early because they were the best and everyone else had to make do with whatever was left. That's how drafts roll.

That being said, is there even a reason to draft powers? It's not like these powers are ever unique in an era, so I really don't see a problem with there being a few reanimating nations, a few Cold ones, and a few sacrificing ones.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sat May 05, 2012 8:13 pm

Thats sounds like an good easy solutions, every one gets an special power from the full draft list.
I think the arguments we had make it clear that there will be different drafts.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Sun May 06, 2012 3:45 pm

Korwin wrote:Thats sounds like an good easy solutions, every one gets an special power from the full draft list.
I think the arguments we had make it clear that there will be different drafts.

Well, maybe.

But I'm still thinking about a way to do it without having to wait for people to draft individual things one at a time.

Korwin, Frank, K - could you guys trying filling out this form:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B7I5nX ... V85REsxWEU

and I'll process them and see what kinds of nations it generates?

The goal with the above algorithm is to make the system as intuitive and difficult-to-game as possible. If you just put big numbers next to things you want, you will tend to get many of them. Putting big numbers next to things you don't want will tend to screw you (since you'll get some of them.) There is a bit of gamesmanship required in achieving balance among your mages, or synergy between your troops, or troops and other picks. But other than that I think it looks good.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sun May 06, 2012 4:55 pm

will do tomorow, current pc has no excel on it.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sun May 06, 2012 6:46 pm

This spreadsheet is awfully hard to navigate. Once I finish where should I send it?

Also, are these assumptions accurate?

average price is determined by the number of people who bid something, not number in the draft.
You do not have to spend all your points in every round.
If you bid one point and no one else bids, you get whatever you bid for at 1 point?
You do not have to bid for the max number of things in every category in every round?

I think you might want to draft troops and shit and just do bidding for advantages, because I am not enjoying having to use a second spreadsheet to calculate and track my bids on the first one.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Sun May 06, 2012 7:27 pm

There are some errors in the spreadsheet, oops!

First, a couple of the MICTLAN units are mis-noted as TIENCHI (this was just a fuckup on my part).

Second, there's a distinct category for capitals as opposed to regular forts. This was not intentional.

Finally - while the "nopreach" option would, at least nominally, work out - I think it makes things needleslly more complicated so I'm dropping the need to bid on the ability to keep your preaching.

A slightly modified version will go up when I get home tonight.

Akula wrote:This spreadsheet is awfully hard to navigate. Once I finish where should I send it?

samuel

handelman

gmail

com.

Also, are these assumptions accurate?
average price is determined by the number of people who bid something, not number in the draft.

The average price is determined by the average among what people actually bid. So, if for example:
Frank bids 15.0% for Warlocks
I bid 13.0% for Warlocks
Korwin bids 12.0% for Warlocks
you bid 0.0% for Warlocks
Then the price of warlocks will be: (15+13+12+0)/4 = 10%. Frank will get Warlocks and he will pay 10% (100 pts) for them.

[*]You do not have to spend all your points in every round.

The bidding is not divided into rounds. So you have an incorrect assumption

.
This is simple, but, I understand, deeply counter-intuitive:
[*] All of the bids, in every category taken together, are sorted by size (the number of points offered by the bidder).
[*] The single biggest bid, which could be for Warlocks, or could be for Star Spawn, or reanimating priests or anything - is paid for.
[*] All of the other bids are updated - this means, that whatever points people bid on the object that was just paid for, are redistributed proportionally among all their other bids, and the list of bids is resorted.
[*] During that update step, we also check if any other bids become ineligible. So, for example, when I get my second capital-only mage, any other capital-only mages on-which-I-bid are also zeroed out and the points redistributed to my other bids.

[*]If you bid one point and no one else bids, you get whatever you bid for at 1 point?

Actually, you will pay: (your bid) / (number of players) points, but yeah, more or less.

[*]You do not have to bid for the max number of things in every category in every round?[/list]
There are no rounds of bidding. You must bid on at least (players * picks) items in each category.
So, for example, each player gets 2 capital-only mages. If there are ten players, you must bid on at least 20 of the mages.
If you want to leave bids blank and just accept random stuff in the event that your bids lose out, that's fine - the script will bid 1 pt "for you" on a bunch of things at random. Chances are good you won't get any of those, although you could lose out on your higher picks so there are no guarantees.

I think you might want to draft troops and shit and just do bidding for advantages, because I am not enjoying having to use a second spreadsheet to calculate and track my bids on the first one.

Problem is, drafting takes forever. This way, you just fill out the spreadsheet once and then I chunk it through.

It should end up reasonably fair and be difficult to game, is my thinking. But that's just my intuition of how it'll work out, and it does take a bit to explain how you need to fill out the bidding sheet.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun May 06, 2012 8:10 pm

DrPraetor wrote:The average price is determined by the average among what people actually bid. So, if for example:
Frank bids 15.0% for Warlocks
I bid 13.0% for Warlocks
Korwin bids 12.0% for Warlocks
you bid 0.0% for Warlocks
Then the price of warlocks will be: (15+13+12+0)/4 = 10%. Frank will get Warlocks and he will pay 10% (100 pts) for them.

This makes no sense. If I bid 15% for Warlocks, what the fuck difference does it make how many points I spend? It's not like I get the 5% overbid back, because there's only one round of bidding.

From your description, everyone ends up with a variably sized pile of extra points and it doesn't matter in the slightest because you can't respend them.

-Username17

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sun May 06, 2012 8:26 pm

If I bid 15% for Warlocks, what the fuck difference does it make how many points I spend?

If I got the explanation right it matters because if you got the Warlocks with 15% and in the next pick you and me both have an 10% at an pick I would get it because my 10% of X is bigger than your 10% of X-15%.

K · Post by K » Sun May 06, 2012 11:21 pm

I'm already confused. I don't think I can fill out the form.

If bidding taking too long is the problem, why not just do all rounds of draft simultaneously? You'd have to do the double-rounds in order, but that shouldn't take more than 3-4 days at the longest.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Mon May 07, 2012 1:31 am

I am slightly paralyzed with indecision. Since it seems we have 5 people filling out the form for this test I need to fill in 5 commanders, scouts, priests gods, and misc commanders, 10 capital only troops and mages, 15 recruit anywhere mages and spells, 25 troops, and any national advantage I care to bid on? That is far too much to consider (almost 100 choices when backups are taken into account; even if I only put a 1pt placeholder bid on all my backups, it is still ~8% of my total), and a game would likely involve more people participating. Also, is there an order the bids are evaluated in? I either missed that or didn't understand it, so clarification would be nice.

Also I'm not sure that I like that people who bid nothing are averaged in. With the example of the warlock, if I decide that I can't make them work in my faction, or that I don't need them, I am not actually making a statement about the value of the unit for the guy that gets them. It seems like anyone with unorthodox choices will have a huge advantage under that system.

I'm also not particularly keen on an inability to adjust my choices if I miss a key unit. Say I go heavy for jaguar warriors and lay down 25% of my resources on him, but someone else gets 30% of their resources on them somehow and actually gets the unit. If I have been bidding on the assumption that I am supporting jaguar warriors, I am now kinda screwed, I have a bless god and probably some summons and mages that go with a strategy I can no longer run because I don't have the unit it hinged on. Moreover I am probably locked more fully into that strategy as all my points are now making other high bids stronger, so I almost certainly get everything I wanted to support jags, but no jags to support.

Finally, a side issue, but whoever has jags will also have jag PD, which I think is kinda screwy. This applies equally to other high quality scary units, there is almost a certainty that someone will have skinshifter PD, and that someone will have Elephant PD, and Illithid PD.