The Gaming Den

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:55 pm**

Anybody alive in the Core Worlds during the Rise of the Empire presumably saw Jedi (via Holovids if nothing else) doing a bunch of crazy Jedi shit, but in Ep IV Admiral Motti and Han Solo express disbelief in the Force.

How is that reasonable?

Game On,
fbmf

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:57 pm**

George Lucas didn't think that far ahead.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:08 pm**

because it was a religion based on worshiping bacteria.

even when he saw it what was it he said about the force to Vader? (dont feel like digging the DVDs out)

what was it Han said... "hockey religions and..."

Han didnt believe it had power over him (maybe he wasnt weak willed for Jedi mind tricks to work on him)

dont forget ep 1 "im a tridarian, mind tricks dont work on me. only money". does that mean he didnt believe in the force, or thought it was not a real religion?

i will also enjoy the back and forth on this one between fbmf and k as well. going to make some popcorn now to prepare for it.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:57 pm**

The extermination of the Jedi seems to have made everyone very skeptical about the usefulness of their abilities and the validity of their beliefs. No-one denies that Vader can crush your throat with his mind, or is surprised by it happening – Motti's criticism was that Vader's powers hadn't been able to actually accomplish any stated goals (find the plans, find the rebel base) and was perfectly correct. Similarly, Han's 'hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side' quote doesn't deny that the Jedi have abilities, only that in a fight he'd prefer a gun, and as much as I hate referencing the prequels, in Ep3 the Jedi were killed with guns. Han also disbelieves 'that there's some all-powerful Force controlling everything,' but this is entirely coherent with observed evidence, since even the most powerful force-users have some pretty sharp limits on what they can actually do.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:06 pm**

I would presume the Galactic Empire made a lot of propaganda about the Jedi. During the Republic the Jedi where probably seen as benevolent, you have to do a lot of spin to justify why you crushed a benevolent group like the Jedi. As part of that propaganda they probably downplayed what Jedi where really capable of and over represented any rituals or traditions the order had to make them seem strange and unrelatable to the public. The Sith would also want the public/potential enemies to be unaware of what powers they truly possessed, so would suppress that information.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:26 pm**

Anyone capable of using the Force is an extremely tiny proportion of the population (a hundred in a nation of billions), meaning that most people could easily see all the beliefs of the Jedi as mere superstition around a super-rare talent. The fact that those teachings offer nothing to someone without the extremely rare talent doesn't help.

Add in the fact that there is proof that Jedi extra-sensory perception is totally flawed, discounting the beliefs of a Jedi seems reasonable. People can't tell when a Jedi is actually having a real Force premonition or just talking out of his ass, and their inability to predict their own demise is pretty damning.

Jedi teachings are also suspect since everyone knows that there were other Force-capable organizations with different philosophies like the Sith.

There is also the fact that this is a sci-fi universe. The possibility is open that "Jedi talents" are some ancient alien tech that is not available to the public. Different aliens seem to have their own unique tech that is not available in the Republic/Empire (like cloning). Hell, with artificial gravity and antigrav and FTL being common pieces of tech, the possibility of a machine that can choke someone from the other side of the universe is actually more plausible than some biological talent.

At worst, the old holovids of Jedi could just be invented holograms and stage magician tricks. The number of people who have seen a Jedi actually do something badass seems to be limited to half a dozen Empire generals, a handful of Rebels, and a bunch of people who died in the Old Republic.

Believing that there is a wildly small number of people who might be able to throw a rock across the room with their minds is rational if pretty implausible. Believing that this person has anything to add to any conversation on any topic is not.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:58 pm**

Because Jedi/Sith in Star Wars are a zillion times rarer in Star Wars than clerics are in D&D.

OgreBattle wrote:George Lucas didn't think that far ahead.

And this.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:12 pm**

K wrote:Anyone capable of using the Force is an extremely tiny proportion of the population (a hundred in a nation of billions), meaning that most people could easily see all the beliefs of the Jedi as mere superstition around a super-rare talent. The fact that those teachings offer nothing to someone without the extremely rare talent doesn't help.

Yep. In fact, by the start of episode 3, there are roughly 3500 Jedi in the galaxy, total. They've fallen a long way from their massive numbers in the earlier days of the Old Republic, so the vast majority of people seeing the new Empire's propaganda would never have met a Jedi in person or know someone who had met a Jedi in person.

Jedi teachings are also suspect since everyone knows that there were other Force-capable organizations with different philosophies like the Sith.

Actually, it's the reverse of this: the Sith kept their existence hidden as much as possible and most of the other Force traditions out there were just too small and obscure to garner much notice, so during the Empire's reign there was no one a Force-believer could point to and say "See, they're doing fine, the Force exists, the Jedi just screwed up." Jedi teachings were suspect because, as far as anyone knew, the only Force users in existence were Jedi and they were all gone.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:31 pm**

Emerald wrote:the Sith kept their existence hidden as much as possible

Nope. The Great Sith War is known as that by historians, not just Jedi. The Sith used to be totally and completely open about it for the vast majority of their existence. They didn't tell people specifically where Korriban is, but they did openly flaunt their power as one of the reasons you should pick their side over the Jedi.

It's only post rule of 2 that secrecy became a thing.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:42 pm**

Kaelik wrote:
Emerald wrote:the Sith kept their existence hidden as much as possible
Nope. The Great Sith War is known as that by historians, not just Jedi. The Sith used to be totally and completely open about it for the vast majority of their existence. They didn't tell people specifically where Korriban is, but they did openly flaunt their power as one of the reasons you should pick their side over the Jedi.

It's only post rule of 2 that secrecy became a thing.

And the Sith were more or less assumed to have been wiped out.

The first Great Sith War/Hyperspace War was like 4-5000 years before Episode 4. The average person probably knows dick-all about it.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:50 pm**

How could there be a Great Sith War if there's only supposed to be two of the motherfuckers?

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:08 pm**

There used to be more, but after so many wars, the remaining two decided to instate the Rule of Two. From what I'm to understand, part of their philosophy with this is that there is an actual Conservation of Ninjitsu with the Dark Side of the Force. Such that there is a finite amount of evil mojo for the Sith, and the more Sith there are, the more spread out it becomes; making there only be two be such that those two are monstrously powerful.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:38 pm**

virgil wrote:Such that there is a finite amount of evil mojo for the Sith, and the more Sith there are, the more spread out it becomes; making there only be two be such that those two are monstrously powerful.

But Maul and Dooku went down to like two guys and Palpatine was able to be taken down by Mace Windu. There are thousands of Jedi. Just how lopsided is this conflict?

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:39 pm**

I thought the idea was just that Sith infighting tended to do more damage to their own side than to other people's, and thus the best ratio of Sith to non-Force or untrained allies actually turned out to be 2: X, where X is any finite number at all. Presumably, just one Sith would've been even better (no infighting at all), but then the line would be broken on his death.

Worth noting, however, that this philosophy was completely wrong. Since the instating of the Rule of Two, the only Sith to ever threaten the Jedi Order as a whole was Sidious, who broke the rule right in half by training dozens of different people in some part of the Sith arts and allowing Darth Vader and others to do the same. By ignoring the Rule of Two but still limiting the number of full Sith Lords, he actually successfully defeated the Republic.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:44 pm**

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
virgil wrote:Such that there is a finite amount of evil mojo for the Sith, and the more Sith there are, the more spread out it becomes; making there only be two be such that those two are monstrously powerful.
But Maul and Dooku went down to like two guys and Palpatine was able to be taken down by Mace Windu. There are thousands of Jedi. Just how lopsided is this conflict?

I never said their philosophy was a successful one. As Chamomile points out, it works better when you ignore the Rule of Two. The Sith probably just didn't think about using half-Sith to limit the number of Lords and their inherent infighting until Sidious.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:50 pm**

Then the Sith are retarded, because rulers in the real world have figured out how to be reasonably safe with one person holding absolute power alongside side their similarly empowered peers since the dawn of human civilization. Even if said rulers are total evil bastards and have total evil bastard underlings. I mean, military coups and aristocrat-to-royalty assassinations/rebellions still happen, but not frequently enough that monarch reigning for several decades is unusual.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:27 pm**

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
virgil wrote:Such that there is a finite amount of evil mojo for the Sith, and the more Sith there are, the more spread out it becomes; making there only be two be such that those two are monstrously powerful.
But Maul and Dooku went down to like two guys and Palpatine was able to be taken down by Mace Windu. There are thousands of Jedi. Just how lopsided is this conflict?

If you go by the novelization Palpatine allowed himself to look beat so that Anakin would freak out and kill Windu. At any given time he probably could have crushed Windu. As far as raw power of the force, Yoda and Palpatine both threw everything that they had at each other and Palpatine was just slightly stronger in the force.

As far as Sith philosophy, it's hyper-darwinian to a degree that would make even Ayn Rand hesitate. That, combined with the dark side supposedly being quicker and easier to master than the light side, and you could see how it might appeal. If you and I started training in the force at the same time, and I went dark side, for quite a while I'd probably be way more powerful than you. Eventually you'd be more powerful, but that wouldn't matter if I killed you before we reached that equilibrium point.

Also, remember that Sith is not equivalent to Dark Side. You can be a dark sider without being Sith. Sith philosophy probably pushes you towards the dark side however.

Posted: **Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:31 pm**

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Then the Sith are retarded, because rulers in the real world have figured out how to be reasonably safe with one person holding absolute power alongside side their similarly empowered peers since the dawn of human civilization. Even if said rulers are total evil bastards and have total evil bastard underlings. I mean, military coups and aristocrat-to-royalty assassinations/rebellions still happen, but not frequently enough that monarch reigning for several decades is unusual.

Palpatine ruled for like 40 years and only really had trouble at the end.

From what I'm aware of, the reason for the rule of two was also to keep the Sith alive and to keep the Jedi from hunting them down. It's far, far harder to find two specific people in the galaxy that you might not even realize are there to begin with.

Also, the dark side is at times portrayed as being *almost* intelligent, or at least aware of what was going on. It goes out of it's way to try to seduce people in a Coyote/Devil sort of way instead of simply always being present as an option.

Posted: **Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:33 am**

Seriously, no productive conversation or exchange of ideas can be had about any topic that includes the new terrible movies as part of the canon. They are nonsensical, non-canonical, non movies. They are garbage and cannot be included in any conversation about Star Wars that you intend to go anywhere.

Those movies are the worst pieces of film in western history, and I'm including propaganda films for the Klan in that statement.

Posted: **Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:02 am**

The comedian Simon Pegg (Shaun of the Dead) made a career from the Star Wars prequels.

"The Phantom Menace" or "Jar-Jar" was either the punchline or the set-up for about half the jokes on his TV series, Spaced.

Posted: **Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:48 am**

virgil wrote:There used to be more, but after so many wars, the remaining two decided to instate the Rule of Two. From what I'm to understand, part of their philosophy with this is that there is an actual Conservation of Ninjitsu with the Dark Side of the Force. Such that there is a finite amount of evil mojo for the Sith, and the more Sith there are, the more spread out it becomes; making there only be two be such that those two are monstrously powerful.

It wasn't even just the remaining two. One guy (Darth Bane I believe) took it upon himself to essentially destroy the last 100 or so sith simultaneously (I believe he manipulated them into committing suicide or some shit), because he came to the conclusion that having so many sith was actually what weakened them to the point where they were about to be defeated.

Posted: **Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:53 pm**

Do they even count as Sith once they stop believing that competition will make them stronger?

Posted: **Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:54 pm**

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Then the Sith are retarded, because rulers in the real world have figured out how to be reasonably safe with one person holding absolute power alongside side their similarly empowered peers since the dawn of human civilization. Even if said rulers are total evil bastards and have total evil bastard underlings. I mean, military coups and aristocrat-to-royalty assassinations/rebellions still happen, but not frequently enough that monarch reigning for several decades is unusual.

In the real world, possessing power doesn't (always) make you a psychopathic, sociopathic individual incapable of any positive feelings, the way the dark side does. It's far removed from anything that happens in the real world.

Also note how the Sith amassed vast amounts of wealth and political power while the rule of two was intact. Onlywhen Palpatine broke it and came out openly did he pave the road for defeat.

Posted: **Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:24 pm**

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Do they even count as Sith once they stop believing that competition will make them stronger?

Well that's the point, they never gave up on that. Rule of two is two specifically because that way the apprentice will always be trying to kill the master, and the master will always be trying to stay more powerful than the apprentice.

Posted: **Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:33 pm**

OgreBattle wrote:George Lucas didn't think that far ahead. is a fucking idiot.

The Gaming Den

So how are there non-believers in STAR WARS?

So how are there non-believers in STAR WARS?