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Ice9
Duke
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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 Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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One thing I've run into recently - sometimes, having a lot of armor is problematic. High enough armor turns physical damage into stun damage, which may be better in terms of not dying immediately, but is often worse in terms of actually winning or getting away.
Short of the rather difficult to obtain Pain Editor, is there any way around this? The Trauma Damper helps a little, but not that much. |
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Stahlseele
Duke
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 2016
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Getting body up instead of armor, getting willpower up to get a longer stun track . . other than that?
dodge damage instead of soaking it.
and deal damage FIRST AND LAST.
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Silent Wayfarer
Master
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| UmaroVI wrote: | | Accessories aren't mods. The HVBR can totally take "underbarrel" mods, it just can't take Underbarrel accessories or Barrel accessories. |
My bad, I fell asleep after I posted and only realised it this morning.
| Quote: | | I am pretty sure the 1 RC that the sling grants is part of the "longarms/heavy weapon" only thing. Especially since they then go on to have rules for a Lanyard, which is the version you put on things smaller than longarms. If your GM will let it fly you can put it on either weapon, but I doubt it. |
| Quote: | Sling/Lanyard: A sling attached to a longarm or heavy
weapon allows the user to have it ready with a –1 Concealability
modifi er or unready with a –2 Concealability modifi er. Also,
the user receives a +2 dice pool modifi er on any tests to determine
whether he can hold onto the weapon. Th e sling provides
one point of recoil compensation. For restrictions on recoil
compensation, see p. 148.
A smaller sling called a lanyard can also be attached to
melee weapons and fi rearms smaller than longarms, providing a
+4 dice pool modifi er on any tests to determine whether or not
the user can hold onto the weapon. |
Hmm. A lanyard is defined as a smaller sling that provides a bigger bonus to holding onto your weapon. You could read it as "see the rules for a sling, but the bonus to holding on to weapons is +4 instead of +2" OR "the only benefit it provides is a +4 for holding onto your weapon".
Personally, I only read the sling section because my unconscious assumption was that assault rifles are longarms (not Longarms) and the book was just making a distinction between them for whatever reason. My bad.
A forearm gyromount would neatly sidestep all these problems and let me use the HVBR without penalties; the main problem is that it's 12F. Is there a way to conceal those better?
| Quote: | | Hardware in no way helps you with Maglock Sequencers. They just make a Maglock Sequencer test that doesn't use your skill at all. |
That, and in order to use a maglock sequencer you need to make a Hardware + Logic test vs the maglock Ratiing x2. So... yeah.
| Quote: | If a trained medtech uses a medkit/autodoc when healing a char-
acter, she receives a dice pool modifier equal to the device’s First Aid or
Medicine autosoft rating. If the character is untrained, she can still make
the test using her own attribute and the device’s rating in place of her
skill.
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I hope this means that when untrained, I can replace my skill (0) with the automedkit's rating (6), so I can still throw out 8 dice (LOG 2 + Rating 6) at things I have no clue about.
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Last edited by Silent Wayfarer on Mon May 07, 2012 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ice9
Duke
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1031
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Stahlseele wrote: | Getting body up instead of armor, getting willpower up to get a longer stun track . . other than that?
dodge damage instead of soaking it.
and deal damage FIRST AND LAST. |
Having high Body leads to higher armor though, or at least the ability to wear more armor without penalty. I guess you could just shortchange yourself, but that's not effective unless your Body/Willpower disparity is large (6+ points) and the DV happens to fall in the correct range.
Dodging is always a good option, but it does break down sometimes. I mean, it's not like I really expect a "perfect defense" in SR, it's just odd that Body is slightly self-canceling this way.
Last edited by Ice9 on Mon May 07, 2012 11:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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CatharzGodfoot
King
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 5508
Location: North Carolina
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Silent Wayfarer
Master
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| CatharzGodfoot wrote: | | Silent Wayfarer wrote: | | A forearm gyromount would neatly sidestep all these problems and let me use the HVBR without penalties; the main problem is that it's 12F. Is there a way to conceal those better? |
Doesn't Arsenal have modular cyberlimbs? If so, you can just pop it off as the situation dictates. |
I would totally feel like that villain from Enter The Dragon.
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Schwarzkopf
Knight-Baron
Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 640
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Modular cyberarms only allow for the hot-switching of modular plug-ins, which include neat but impractical things like tool lasers, chainsaws, and even a hydraulic press. Not, unfortunately, a gyromount.
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Silent Wayfarer
Master
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:29 am Post subject: |
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My assumption was that you could totally swap out a NEW cyberhand. Or something. Anyway. Is there a way to conceal the stuff inside a cyberlimb? Since the cyberhand is totally legal until the wrist gyrostabilizers pop out. Wouldn't ware scanners be unable to discern what's inside a cyberlimb, necessitating annoying disassembly and such?
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Seerow
Knight-Baron
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Posts: 703
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| Silent Wayfarer wrote: | | My assumption was that you could totally swap out a NEW cyberhand. Or something. |
Yeah this is pretty much how I was under the impression that it worked. Also every char gen software I've seen seems to handle it the same way, so it's not exactly an uncommon reading. |
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Silent Wayfarer
Master
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:20 am Post subject: |
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So what's a good price for a replacement cyberhand? Drone Hands are 3.5k and should represent the upper limit. Tool appendages like the Toolkit and the Medkit hover around 1.5k. So a fully functional replacement cyberhand should be... 1k?
Though I might get a Synthetic Drone Hand anyway, for that whole Thing flavor.
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"Do not fuck with humanity. We nailed our God to a wooden cross and let him die. What do you think we will do to you?" |
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Lokathor
Duke
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 1142
Location: Boise, ID
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Silent Wayfarer wrote: | | My assumption was that you could totally swap out a NEW cyberhand. Or something. Anyway. Is there a way to conceal the stuff inside a cyberlimb? Since the cyberhand is totally legal until the wrist gyrostabilizers pop out. Wouldn't ware scanners be unable to discern what's inside a cyberlimb, necessitating annoying disassembly and such? |
You can x-ray and stuff through plasteel, and any limb they can't x-ray and see the parts of is automatically suspect as well.
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Silent Wayfarer
Master
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Lokathor wrote: | | Silent Wayfarer wrote: | | My assumption was that you could totally swap out a NEW cyberhand. Or something. Anyway. Is there a way to conceal the stuff inside a cyberlimb? Since the cyberhand is totally legal until the wrist gyrostabilizers pop out. Wouldn't ware scanners be unable to discern what's inside a cyberlimb, necessitating annoying disassembly and such? |
You can x-ray and stuff through plasteel, and any limb they can't x-ray and see the parts of is automatically suspect as well. |
True that, though aren't there ways to disguise internal components as other things? The Puzzler gun can be broken down into jewelry-sized pieces which are all scannable but don't register as a proper weapon. Maybe in the gyromount's case it just looks like internal cylinders and whatnot.
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"Do not fuck with humanity. We nailed our God to a wooden cross and let him die. What do you think we will do to you?" |
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unnamednpc
Apprentice
Joined: 25 Feb 2011
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Not to sound like a total hardass, but is it really within the intent of the rules to cram a cyberarm gyromount into a cyberhand?
Incidentally, I think this scrounging for recoil compensation at any cost only highlights one of Shadowruns many mechanical problems - per-bullet recoil (and -damage, and counting individual bullets in general) is clunky and horrible and adds nothing to the game safe for another area where where "optimization" is incentivized to the point where recoil is either a) eating heavily into your dice, making it harder to hit and ultimately hurting your ability to fulfill your role or b) no real problem for anybody, making you wonder why anyone in the sixth world would do anything but walk around and dispense fully compensated 10 round bursts at their leisure.
Whoever manages to come up with a new, fast, flexible and intuitive combat system will take an important step in making Shadowrun accessible to people lacking the decade long brutal socialization of the average player. |
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unnamednpc
Apprentice
Joined: 25 Feb 2011
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Gah double post
Last edited by unnamednpc on Tue May 08, 2012 8:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Silent Wayfarer
Master
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| unnamednpc wrote: | | Not to sound like a total hardass, but is it really within the intent of the rules to cram a cyberarm gyromount into a cyberhand? |
Maybe it's holdover terminology from previous editions? By RAW, a gyromount is a recoil compensating device that ccounts as bodyware, so you can totally install it in anything with a Capacity rating (barring cybereyes or cyberears). Even, for whatever reason, in a pair of breast implants (bulk modification yo).
A lot of the Go Fast ware (Synaptic Boosters, MBW, Wired Reflexes) also refers to "initiative enhancers" when none of them actually directly enhance initiative, just the Reaction score. And other stuff you can find if you dig long enough.
So yeah, a brain fart happened at some point.
Also, I was reading discussion on the burst fire rules. It seems that there is no point at all to trying to burst with two weapons, mainly because you can only make one full/long burst anyway and dualwielding doesn't let you break those rules while chopping your pool in half for whatever silly reason. Granted, you could send more short bursts downrange... so I guess it would only be worthwhile if you could doubletap two people with four short bursts (two per gun) or hit one guy four times with short bursts. Am I getting it right or am I fucking it up?
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"Do not fuck with humanity. We nailed our God to a wooden cross and let him die. What do you think we will do to you?"
Last edited by Silent Wayfarer on Tue May 08, 2012 8:57 am; edited 2 times in total |
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FrankTrollman
Serious Badass
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 20649
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| UmaroVI wrote: | Frank, that's not how skill replacement items work in general. Medkits have the exact same language as Autopickers, and you used them in your example, so I think it is fair to assume they work the exact same way. See SR4A 337 and SR4A 335.
Now check SR4A 254 where they have a more full explanation of how medkits work. |
I'm sorry, that just doesn't pass the sniff test.
Here's your chain of logic:
- The general rules in SR4A have an example of using a piece of equipment that is clearly at odds with the actual description of the piece of gear supposedly used in the example.
- Some other piece of gear uses the the same wording as the item supposedly used in the otherwise completely unrelated example.
- Therefore: this other piece of gear is supposed to work as if it was written in a way that is in any way reconcilable with the example text of the other other piece of gear being used rather than the way it was actually written.
Good luck selling a GM on that interpretation. Here's the interpretation that I have always seen used in all games:
- SR4A is actually very poorly edited all over the place, and the example is probably just wrong if it references a piece of equipment having completely different text than it actually does. Use all the equipment as written.
If you find yourself trying to convince your GM that there is typographical error inheritance across unrelated pieces of gear and that they should all be reconciled with an otherwise unrelated example half a book away that isn't even addressing any specific equipment that is necessarily in the book - you should consider the possibility that you are slinging bullshit. Especially if your conclusion from this line of reasoning is "half the skills are worthless".
| Silent Wayfarer wrote: | | Also, I was reading discussion on the burst fire rules. It seems that there is no point at all to trying to burst with two weapons, mainly because you can only make one full/long burst anyway and dualwielding doesn't let you break those rules while chopping your pool in half for whatever silly reason. Granted, you could send more short bursts downrange... so I guess it would only be worthwhile if you could doubletap two people with four short bursts (two per gun) or hit one guy four times with short bursts. Am I getting it right or am I fucking it up? |
What dual-wielding does is allow your opponent to double their soak pool and use generally more Defense dice (since each subsequent attack is -1 Defense, they get more more defense dice the more defense dice they start with). In exchange, you get to double your base weapon damage. Remember that a machine pistol firing short narrow bursts of ExEx rounds has a base weapon damage of seven at -1 AP, so if your opponents have a soak pool of less than twenty two dice, and don't have a very large defense pool, this is a net positive.
Like many things in SR Comabt, it's kind of weird and somewhat counterintuitive. Taking shots with both hands is something that is good to do if you are gunning down mooks and you would like to increase your chances of dropping two or at least injuring a second one. And it's a good thing to do when you are fighting something really badass like a Force 8+ Spirit and you're reasonably positive that your allies are going to need to keep shooting at it on their rounds as well (since you are handing your friend a -4 penalty to its defense instead of a -2). But if you are trying for a one-round take-down of one badass mofo, or trying to penetrate some heavy armor drone, you are better off shooting them with just the gun in one hand.
-Frank |
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Stahlseele
Duke
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 2016
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:57 am Post subject: |
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@Silent:
Only Reaction Enhancers are not enhancing Initiative directly.
ALL of the others ARE.
Reaction Enhancers are compatible with every other Initiative System.
THAT was the Brain-Fart.
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Welcome, to IronHell.
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
| Shrapnel wrote: |
| TFwiki wrote: | Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly. |
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Silent Wayfarer
Master
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| FrankTrollman wrote: | What dual-wielding does is allow your opponent to double their soak pool and use generally more Defense dice (since each subsequent attack is -1 Defense, they get more more defense dice the more defense dice they start with). In exchange, you get to double your base weapon damage. Remember that a machine pistol firing short narrow bursts of ExEx rounds has a base weapon damage of seven at -1 AP, so if your opponents have a soak pool of less than twenty two dice, and don't have a very large defense pool, this is a net positive.
Like many things in SR Comabt, it's kind of weird and somewhat counterintuitive. Taking shots with both hands is something that is good to do if you are gunning down mooks and you would like to increase your chances of dropping two or at least injuring a second one. And it's a good thing to do when you are fighting something really badass like a Force 8+ Spirit and you're reasonably positive that your allies are going to need to keep shooting at it on their rounds as well (since you are handing your friend a -4 penalty to its defense instead of a -2). But if you are trying for a one-round take-down of one badass mofo, or trying to penetrate some heavy armor drone, you are better off shooting them with just the gun in one hand.
-Frank |
So basically, it's very situational; mooks would die ANYWAY, you just want to kill them fast to break their morale and/or reduce threat to your friends, so you John Woo on them. Dual wielding also lets you stack on the crossfire penalties to hit a dodgy bastard. Apart from that, just take your time and kill them with rationed-out bursts.
Hm. That works, I guess.
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Schwarzkopf
Knight-Baron
Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 640
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Franks description of the tactical pros/cons of dual-wielding in SR is pretty spot on.
Of course I've encountered/played characters who would do it even when it wasn't a good idea tactically because "it's just cooler"--and that's a valid choice too.
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"Welcome to the Den. We will steal your car, burn your house, rape your wife, and kill your dog. Then we will say mean things to or about you. On the internet." -Frank Trollman
Last edited by Schwarzkopf on Tue May 08, 2012 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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UmaroVI
Journeyman
Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Well, at least we agree that Shadowrun is poorly edited. I have always seen it run the other way, but such are the consequences of SR being edited by drunken lemurs.
Re: dual wield (rather than 'consecutive wield' or whatever you want to call shooting a weapon in each hand but on separate actions), I would just add to Frank's summary two things.
The first is that if you want to do this and are using FA capable weapons, which I think you are, you should invest in Tracer Rounds. Smartlinks and Laser Sights do not work while DW-ing, but Tracer Rounds do and while they don't always help they are nice when they do. Technically Red Dot Sights (Gun Heaven) also still work but good luck getting your GM to let that one fly.
The second is to keep in mind the option of using FA and HV weapons to hit multiple targets in a full burst. A HVBR can narrow burst 4 nearby targets as a complex action at your full dice pool, and it's quite possible for a sufficiently awesome street samurai to drop all four targets with that. Of course, it requires the right circumstances (opponents standing close enough together, in particular) but when it works, it works. |
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Silent Wayfarer
Master
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| UmaroVI wrote: | | The first is that if you want to do this and are using FA capable weapons, which I think you are, you should invest in Tracer Rounds. Smartlinks and Laser Sights do not work while DW-ing, but Tracer Rounds do and while they don't always help they are nice when they do. Technically Red Dot Sights (Gun Heaven) also still work but good luck getting your GM to let that one fly. |
Gun Heaven? Which one is that?
Also, Tracer ammo was on my shopping list.
| Quote: | | The second is to keep in mind the option of using FA and HV weapons to hit multiple targets in a full burst. A HVBR can narrow burst 4 nearby targets as a complex action at your full dice pool, and it's quite possible for a sufficiently awesome street samurai to drop all four targets with that. Of course, it requires the right circumstances (opponents standing close enough together, in particular) but when it works, it works. |
Did you say FULL dice pool? I thought you took penalties for attacking multiple targets... if not, then HV weapons got even better.
Also, what is the consensus on using wide choke + full auto on shotguns to blast multiple baddies at once? It lowers DV by 2 and jacks up AP by 9... but it does reduce defense pools by 4 and lets you hit 3 targets at the same time. What happens when you use FA to attack multiple targets on wide choke, do entire Red Samurai platoons disappear in clouds of red mist?
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UmaroVI
Journeyman
Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:19 am Post subject: |
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It's actually debatable; you might take the -2 multiple targets penalty or you might not, because the text conflicts with itself as usual. What's more important is that you don't have to split your dicepool like you do for dual-wield; a -2 penalty is small change compared to that.
FA + choke on shotguns is more funny than good. The problem is that if your targets are wearing armor, you're probably just going to tickle them repeatadly. However, against really lightly armored targets, clumps of devil rats, or whatever, it's good. You can also chain it to shoot 3 targets 3 times each, and even if each shot is weak the combination can hurt. |
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Silent Wayfarer
Master
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| UmaroVI wrote: | | It's actually debatable; you might take the -2 multiple targets penalty or you might not, because the text conflicts with itself as usual. What's more important is that you don't have to split your dicepool like you do for dual-wield; a -2 penalty is small change compared to that. |
Well, if the -2 multiple target penalty stacks for each target... does it?
| Quote: | | FA + choke on shotguns is more funny than good. The problem is that if your targets are wearing armor, you're probably just going to tickle them repeatadly. However, against really lightly armored targets, clumps of devil rats, or whatever, it's good. You can also chain it to shoot 3 targets 3 times each, and even if each shot is weak the combination can hurt. |
Pre SR4A, I could get a full auto flechette shotgun to kill multiple Red Samurai with narrow burst adding to damage (never mind the weirdness of using a NARROW burst with a WIDE choke). It's a joke against anyone with decent armor, I agree. Though a thought came to mind - wide full burst with an autoshotgun with wide choke. This should effectively rape anyone's defense pool to 0 and the spillover hits could make up the slack. Hopefully.
For that matter how would AP flechettes work with this? Remove the +5 AP thing?
_________________
"Do not fuck with humanity. We nailed our God to a wooden cross and let him die. What do you think we will do to you?"
Last edited by Silent Wayfarer on Thu May 10, 2012 3:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Whipstitch
Knight-Baron
Joined: 29 Apr 2011
Posts: 972
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:26 am Post subject: |
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Keep in mind that shotguns incur double penalties for uncompensated recoil while being used for burst fire but do not feature the large mag size or the arbitrary and totally sweet recoil compensation that an Ingram White Knight comes with stock, which makes really letting it rip fairly impractical and recoil likely cancels much of the gain you would expect from subtracting wide choke from their defense pool. If you really must have a fully automatic shotgun in your life, I'd recommend installing an ammo bin and a Mossberg AM-CMDT on a combat drone since that negates some of the big disadvantages.
Also, there aren't any AP flechettes I'm aware of and if they are around then they're probably in War! or something and if that's the case I reserve the right to point and laugh at you for knowing about them.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Thu May 10, 2012 3:33 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Silent Wayfarer
Master
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, AP Flechettes are from War!, but then again so is the HVBR, which UmaroVI brought up. 
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