We should all follow Gary Gygax's example on caster balance

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:46 pm

CapnTthePirateG wrote:I must say, I don't really have as much respect for Gary as others. Sure, he did the math[..]

Wait, what? Please explain.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:08 pm

I don't have a problem with the squishy wizard archetype. You're right that there's no particular reason why 'wears robes, eschews melee weaponry, and blasts people with mind/magic powers' has to make you a paper tiger, but glass cannons are a legitimate balance archetype and wizards fit the role as good as anyone. And of course monks and druids fit that broad stereotype anyway without being squishy.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:56 pm

Basically, I feel like Gary introduced a lot of what is still wrong with the hobby like power-tripping GMs and the alignment system. I mean, he knew math unlike these modern idiots, but there's just so much wrong with D&D that can be traced back to him.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:29 pm

CapnTthePirateG wrote: I mean, he knew math unlike these modern idiots, but there's just so much wrong with D&D that can be traced back to him.

I mean, what proof do you have that "he knew math unlike these modern idiots"? From my experience, there isn't even a pretense at having things balanced mathematically.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:30 pm

hogarth wrote:
TOZ wrote:So you're saying modern fantasy wizards should be patterned on this guy?
Fun fact: When I was a kid, I read the book "Myron" by Gore Vidal. In it, "Whizzer White" was used as a substitute for the word "[EDITED]" (with other Supreme Court justices standing in for other curse words). So now I can't hear his name without thinking of a woman's naughty bits.

I didn't realize that was such a popular literary device. R. A. Wilson used "Potter-Stewarting" and "Steinem job" for similar purposes.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:49 pm

FatR wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:And Rand is a shit example. As soon as he learned Balefire he basically stopped carrying around his sword and abandoned blademaster (of which he only dabbled in)
By "only dabbling in" you mean "one of the top swordsmen in the entire fucking world?". And the fact that non-powered sword arts were obsoleted by the improvement of magic (as they inevitably should be) does not erase the fact that if you are a main character you probably can do both nowadays and the whole idea of "physically weak wizard" does not exist even in blatant DnD derivatives, like Slayers.

He literally spent six months studying under a blademaster (Lan). While he's probably better than your average sellsword by simple virtue of blademaster forms, I'd hardly call him one of the top swordsmen in the world.

In fact, every major melee dedicated character in the entire setting is probably better than him with the exception maybe of Perrin (and possibly Thom). When he went up against the seanchan dude he only won because he let the guy run him through with a fucking blade, which is hardly a reflection of skill. Even against your average Aiel, it'd be a tough fight and I might even put my money on the Aiel if he/she is particularly good.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:09 pm

I haven't read the series, but is Rand unable to apply his magic to his swordplay? If he is able to, is his magic not good enough to make him one of the best swordpeople in the world?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:35 pm

Rand doesn't bother to do that, really; he just learned to sword fight before he learned to use his magic, although as it turns out the Zen mindfulness bullshit he is pre-destined to be good at (via being the Dragon fucking Reborn) are good for both performing sword forms and fighting like a boss and casting spells.

TheFlatline is also conflating a few fights and Rand didn't quit practicing after book 2. He did the Heron Wading In The Rushes kamikaze attack to defeat Betrayer of Hope once it was clear they were locked in a stalemate. Highlord Turak, a blademaster, he was able to beat fair and square once he cleared his mind via the Void, aka martial arts zen bullshit, as required by action movie tradition when facing your first true high-end opponent. Later on he still trains with swords but he has a hard time finding partners given that he's the fucking Dragon Reborn and it is reasonable to think that accidentally cracking his skull open would be a really great way to be killed by angry retainers.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:05 am

shadzar wrote:
CapnTthePirateG wrote:I must say, I don't really have as much respect for Gary as others. Sure, he did the math, but he also set up DM-power wanking we still can't get rid of.
get rid of the power mad DMs form ALL editions. it isnt the games responsibility, its the players. YO choose to play with bad DMs, and let them run games or play, rather than forcing them out; then you only have yourself to blame for encouraging them.

Again, as was stated earlier, where's the evidence that Gary Gygax did/knew any of the Math??

Well, in most cases people mention this, it's the other players allowing it, and winning by vote of majority. Where everyone feels DM = God, and lords over the game, is what being that role is about-ish, and otherwise acceptable they can change the game on whim (including outright ignoring rules and killing PC's). So yes, maybe one could still blame the person for being unable to change the mind of the other players AND the DM, but you're not the only one at the table after all.

I've also noted over the years, that all of D&D I've been exposed to seems to have the policy of "suck now, better/"here's your concept" later. What with levels being less like character advancement, and more now can finally play the character concept been wanting to have since mutter effin character creation. Although imagine this is somewhat more commonly noticed when you're playing a non-caster character, wanting those low level tricks available only at mid-high levels for some odd reason. Since they're not as awesome stuff in first place, bit easier to notice I'd imagine opposed to spells rocking awesome all the time, every time, bit. Also, this is reflected in Prestige classes as well, where people have to wait to have certain cool abilities (like Devoted Defender's jump in the way of someones attack class feature). In the end, this usually somewhat mended by having a better class, higher point-buy for attributes (or its equivalent), and even Tome Feats were created for that purpose. Seems the solution to this policy is to just make a better game from scratch, with the more meaningful abilities, able to reach certain concepts quicker within the now more defined/confined power level tiers.

Course then you'd think point based character creation would be quite miracle, but then it's likely get bogged down in the micromanaging of details, and don't get to operate all that want your concept to do (unoptimized or built poorly character in this case).

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:46 am

Gary knew SOME math, but i wasnt commenting on that part of the quote. he knew enough about math to include probability tables in 1e to explain the odds of a given number on 1d20 and 3d6. he also understood it well enough to use the AC range.and many other things present in OD&D. everything is either based on 100% or a range of roughly 20 which gives a quick 100% view of things.

Dave was the one to create the ACs. Gary made 1e by himself. no idea what part Gary played in Chainmail design that became OD&D, or in OD&D design.

Where everyone feels DM = God, and lords over the game

this is half right, and half wrong. DM = God, means that he controls everything in the world, including its design and the deities of the game world. the "lords over the game" bit is a bit skewed to the negative. its like TSR or WotC picked your DM, not you as lord were chosen not by the people but by someone even higher.

when the players and DM fel he was granted lordship by something higher than the players...that is when the problem begins.

not really sure what else it is you are on about...

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:11 am

Aryxbez wrote:
shadzar wrote:
CapnTthePirateG wrote:I must say, I don't really have as much respect for Gary as others. Sure, he did the math, but he also set up DM-power wanking we still can't get rid of.
get rid of the power mad DMs form ALL editions. it isnt the games responsibility, its the players. YO choose to play with bad DMs, and let them run games or play, rather than forcing them out; then you only have yourself to blame for encouraging them.
Again, as was stated earlier, where's the evidence that Gary Gygax did/knew any of the Math??

Well, in most cases people mention this, it's the other players allowing it, and winning by vote of majority. Where everyone feels DM = God, and lords over the game, is what being that role is about-ish, and otherwise acceptable they can change the game on whim (including outright ignoring rules and killing PC's). So yes, maybe one could still blame the person for being unable to change the mind of the other players AND the DM, but you're not the only one at the table after all.

I've also noted over the years, that all of D&D I've been exposed to seems to have the policy of "suck now, better/"here's your concept" later. What with levels being less like character advancement, and more now can finally play the character concept been wanting to have since mutter effin character creation. Although imagine this is somewhat more commonly noticed when you're playing a non-caster character, wanting those low level tricks available only at mid-high levels for some odd reason. Since they're not as awesome stuff in first place, bit easier to notice I'd imagine opposed to spells rocking awesome all the time, every time, bit. Also, this is reflected in Prestige classes as well, where people have to wait to have certain cool abilities (like Devoted Defender's jump in the way of someones attack class feature). In the end, this usually somewhat mended by having a better class, higher point-buy for attributes (or its equivalent), and even Tome Feats were created for that purpose. Seems the solution to this policy is to just make a better game from scratch, with the more meaningful abilities, able to reach certain concepts quicker within the now more defined/confined power level tiers.

Course then you'd think point based character creation would be quite miracle, but then it's likely get bogged down in the micromanaging of details, and don't get to operate all that want your concept to do (unoptimized or built poorly character in this case).

I thought he was an insurance actuary, and weren't there some comments about how the ability scores matched a bell curve?

Anyway, if I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:47 pm

It's not that you're wrong per se, Cap'n, just that it sounds like a claim that could use some substantiation. An actuary background is something, though as of yet unverified.

I did a little googling, and according to wikipedia Gary Gygax did work for an insurance company after taking some classes in anthropology... which makes it sound very much not like actuarial work, not that he couldn't have gained the math background with his later schooling. A couple people online state the claim that he was an actuary (and many more requote it) which could be some sort of meme based upon his love of tables and that he did work in insurance. Still, it isn't an extraordinary claim, I'm willing to buy it for now.

I suspect there is some meat to the claim that Gary Gygax had a better understanding of math and probabilities than most game designers.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:51 pm

TheFlatline wrote: He literally spent six months studying under a blademaster (Lan). While he's probably better than your average sellsword by simple virtue of blademaster forms, I'd hardly call him one of the top swordsmen in the world.

This is already answered above.

By the way, note, that there is zero "melee dedicated" characters among WoT core cast. Matt and Perrin too start with just stabbing faces and end up with supernatural talents that not simply supplement their personal asskickery, but make it relatively insignificant. Core female characters just go straight to magic when the plot requires them to get some firepower.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:12 pm

Yeah, for all the fawning over the Aiel's reputation and the prestige that comes with being a blademaster the WoT series keeps the melee stuff pretty low-end, from what I remember. It's the sort of setting where being a bad ass means you can kill competent opponents one on one cleanly, not that you are a one man wrecking ball, so if you can throw fireballs around without going insane you should probably do that.

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:49 pm

erik wrote: I suspect there is some meat to the claim that Gary Gygax had a better understanding of math and probabilities than most game designers.

That's true. But given the average game designers understanding of statistics...

K · Post by K » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:54 pm

Whipstitch wrote:Yeah, for all the fawning over the Aiel's reputation and the prestige that comes with being a blademaster the WoT series keeps the melee stuff pretty low-end, from what I remember. It's the sort of setting where being a bad ass means you can kill competent opponents one on one cleanly, not that you are a one man wrecking ball, so if you can throw fireballs around without going insane you should probably do that.

I disagree.

Melee stuff does get pretty high-end. I mean, killing those Ringwraith-clones in in melee combat s supposed to be an epic feat of martial talent and by the middle of the series all of the main martial characters have done it. Trollocs also go from "dangerous in small groups" to "stabbed by the dozens by main characters with martial skills."

A lot of the scale of Rand's magic is based on the fact that he carries around an artifact (or three). Without it, we'd see him resorting to martial stuff a lot more often.

I'd also argue that Mat is entirely a melee character in the fantasy trope. The guy carries around a magic weapon and a sorcery-cancelling amulet, but his big martial battlefield ability is the ability to win in army battles where Rand's is to use artifacts to blast the battlefield. Both are dependent on external tools to use their high-end skills.

WoT differs from DnD in that no one has big skills without big tools.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:33 am

That's fair; it's sort of an exceptions that prove the rule universe.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:21 am

kzt wrote:
erik wrote: I suspect there is some meat to the claim that Gary Gygax had a better understanding of math and probabilities than most game designers.
That's true. But given the average game designers understanding of statistics...

didn't 3.0 have something along the lines in regards to ability scores that:

the average between 1 and 20 is 10

3d6 cannot generate 1,2,19, or 20....

they tried to express a bell curve distribution using a linear distribution generator. probably to stick with the d20 system and highlight the number 20 where it shouldnt even exist.

erik · Post by **erik** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:05 am

Shadzar, to answer your post succinctly-

No.

To go a bit longer-
In the Ability scores section of the PHB it is noted that commoners have average abilities scores of 10 or 11 and player characters most common abilities are at 12 or 13 thanks to rolling [4d6 drop low with total reroll on extra shitty characters]. No 1-20 reference is made in that section.